(05-09-2023, 09:13 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I said this with AJ Green, and I will say this with Chase until he reaches the next level. Chad is by far the best WR the Bengals have ever had. Chad had a 3 year stretch in '05-'07 where he was the best WR in the NFL. He also remains the only Bengals WR to ever be 1st Team All-Pro (I think Chase has a pretty good chance at becoming the next).
Chad did it while people were able to absolutely murder WRs, in a division with some all-time great defenders on perennially great defenses. Can never sleep on how great he was.
(05-09-2023, 09:13 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I said this with AJ Green, and I will say this with Chase until he reaches the next level. Chad is by far the best WR the Bengals have ever had. Chad had a 3 year stretch in '05-'07 where he was the best WR in the NFL. He also remains the only Bengals WR to ever be 1st Team All-Pro (I think Chase has a pretty good chance at becoming the next).
Chad did it while people were able to absolutely murder WRs, in a division with some all-time great defenders on perennially great defenses. Can never sleep on how great he was.
That article completely ignores era differences between the two. In the 2011 CBA, they removed the ability for defenses to murder WRs. It's a completely different game.
There have only been 6 seasons of 1,800+ receiving yards. 5 of them have happened since 2011, with the only outlier being the greatest WR of all time Jerry Rice. It's not because all the WRs now are so much better, but because their job is so much easier. If you have two guys putting up nearly identical receiving numbers, and one of them is doing it pre-2011 and the other is doing it post-2011, and the one doing it pre-2011 is doing it against Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu, Ray Lewis, James Harrison, etc? Yeah, that's more impressive.
There's a reason AJ was never 1st Team All-Pro. He was 5th in receiving yards once as his highest, and top-10 only 3 times total, with his second highest being 8th. He was very good, but he was never elite. Chad led the NFL a year, was top-3 for three straight years, and top-6 for five straight years. He was elite.
Honestly, I'm a staunch defender of Marv. I always thought he was cursed for having to build his house on sand, with no foundation whatsoever. IYKYK. The toxins around the team were real, and he spent so much time and effort fighting ghosts. He was the successor to the Bungles era and the NFL never let him forget it. As such, I often claim that 2005 was super underrated. Had they been playing in another city, they would have achieved greater success and notoriety.
That said, send the current team back then and I think they would done even better. I loved 2005 but this here really is a special group. Both can be true.
(05-10-2023, 06:56 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That article completely ignores era differences between the two. In the 2011 CBA, they removed the ability for defenses to murder WRs. It's a completely different game.
There have only been 6 seasons of 1,800+ receiving yards. 5 of them have happened since 2011, with the only outlier being the greatest WR of all time Jerry Rice. It's not because all the WRs now are so much better, but because their job is so much easier. If you have two guys putting up nearly identical receiving numbers, and one of them is doing it pre-2011 and the other is doing it post-2011, and the one doing it pre-2011 is doing it against Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu, Ray Lewis, James Harrison, etc? Yeah, that's more impressive.
There's a reason AJ was never 1st Team All-Pro. He was 5th in receiving yards once as his highest, and top-10 only 3 times total, with his second highest being 8th. He was very good, but he was never elite. Chad led the NFL a year, was top-3 for three straight years, and top-6 for five straight years. He was elite.
AJ was rated the top 4 WR from 2011 to 17 so players are relative to their era, plus AJ came right after Chad so not like great era differences. Your perspective Chad is a hands down HOF but analysts don't agree with you. Tell me who had a better 2nd WR opposite of them? Chad had TJ , AJ had Marvin, AJ had more double teams than Chad, we can split hairs all day , both WRs were great during a 6 year run, neither were good enough to be a HOF...if Chad was that much better he would be in discussions as a HOF , it seems you are in the minority in him being a HOF.. prove me wrong on that.
(05-09-2023, 05:10 PM)packerbacker Wrote: I’m not even a Bengals fan but I believe that team was a Super Bowl team that could have won it all had they got there and if Palmer didn’t get hurt. I think you could say they we’re just as good as the 2021 team. What do you guys think?
I am in the minority of saying the 2015 was better than the 2005 team. Although I think the Bengals would have given them a run for their money, I am not sure they pull off beating the Colts in Indy that year (2005). The steelers had an insane defense and shut them down. The Bengals defense in 2005 was not nearly as good and I think would have struggled big time against Indy.
Losing to the eventual SB champs in 2015 (Denver) on the road, in OT, with a backup QB, tells you all you need to know about that team.
(05-11-2023, 01:23 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: AJ was rated the top 4 WR from 2011 to 17 so players are relative to their era, plus AJ came right after Chad so not like great era differences. Your perspective Chad is a hands down HOF but analysts don't agree with you. Tell me who had a better 2nd WR opposite of them? Chad had TJ , AJ had Marvin, AJ had more double teams than Chad, we can split hairs all day , both WRs were great during a 6 year run, neither were good enough to be a HOF...if Chad was that much better he would be in discussions as a HOF , it seems you are in the minority in him being a HOF.. prove me wrong on that.
By who?
No, there is a significant era difference between pre-2011 and post-2011. 2011 is the year the NFL got sued for concussions, NFL concussions were being talked about in front of Congress, they changed the kickoff rules to lower concussions. A bunch of former NFL players were killing themselves, and in 2013 they introduced the crown of the helmet rule, concussion protocols, etc.
That play was the second time Harrison headhunted and knocked a guy out in that game in 2010. 0 penalties were called against him, which guess what, didn't look great when the NFL was getting lawsuits and scrutiny off the field. That's why things changed.
The time between Chad and AJ wasn't big from a calendar standpoint, but from an NFL standpoint it's enormous.
Here's 2011 when he does the same dirty shit and actually gets a penalty.
I didn't make the claim that he was a Hall of Famer, I said he was elite in his prime and the best WR the Bengals ever had. So why do I have to prove you wrong on something you just made up? I have always said he is a fringe guy who probably would go in if he didn't have to play in the AFCN during that era, or played on a better team, but I said that about Corey Dillon, too.
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As a side note, thinking about all of this has just revved my hate for the Scumbag Steelers back up despite it being the middle of the offseason. Made even worse by how they get excuses made for them and then they pretend they are the victims.
(05-11-2023, 11:15 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am in the minority of saying the 2015 was better than the 2005 team. Although I think the Bengals would have given them a run for their money, I am not sure they pull off beating the Colts in Indy that year (2005). The steelers had an insane defense and shut them down. The Bengals defense in 2005 was not nearly as good and I think would have struggled big time against Indy.
Losing to the eventual SB champs in 2015 (Denver) on the road, in OT, with a backup QB, tells you all you need to know about that team.
I think the 2015 team was great, but I have always found comments like this interesting, where we use one game to draw a definitive conclusion about a team. Cincinnati lost at home to a middling Texans team while only scoring 6 points that same season. This was with all starters intact. Does that tell us anything conclusive?
I think you see what I'm saying. Sometimes it is just variance in how football goes. I don't think Cincinnati putting up a fight against Denver that season tells us any more about how good they were than the Colts beating Kansas City last season.
I do agree that 2015 was a stronger team overall than 2005. The 2005 team had more offensive firepower but 2015 was more well rounded.
(05-11-2023, 11:32 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think the 2015 team was great, but I have always found comments like this interesting, where we use one game to draw a definitive conclusion about a team. Cincinnati lost at home to a middling Texans team while only scoring 6 points that same season. This was with all starters intact. Does that tell us anything conclusive?
I think you see what I'm saying. Sometimes it is just variance in how football goes. I don't think Cincinnati putting up a fight against Denver that season tells us any more about how good they were than the Colts beating Kansas City last season.
I do agree that 2015 was a stronger team overall than 2005. The 2005 team had more offensive firepower but 2015 was more well rounded.
Ugh, that game made me so mad. It was the teams chance to show they were past their primetime woes but fell flat on their faces.
It's easy to see the world in black and white. Grey? I don't know what to do with grey.
2005 offensive line: Levi Jones, Eric Steinbach, Rich Braham, Bobbie Williams, Willie Anderson That's a very good offensive line in front of Palmer. You add in Chad, T.J. Chris Henry, Rudy. That offense was absolutely loaded.
(05-11-2023, 11:32 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think the 2015 team was great, but I have always found comments like this interesting, where we use one game to draw a definitive conclusion about a team. Cincinnati lost at home to a middling Texans team while only scoring 6 points that same season. This was with all starters intact. Does that tell us anything conclusive?
I think you see what I'm saying. Sometimes it is just variance in how football goes. I don't think Cincinnati putting up a fight against Denver that season tells us any more about how good they were than the Colts beating Kansas City last season.
I do agree that 2015 was a stronger team overall than 2005. The 2005 team had more offensive firepower but 2015 was more well rounded.
You completely contradict yourself with your statement immediately after the bolded comment. And, yes, they lost to a Texans team that they held to 10 points. The 2015 team had a better defense that didn't rely on turnovers from really bad QB play. The defense was every bit as good as the offense. They were more balanced than the 2005 team.
That 2015 team was 10-2 when they lost Dalton for the season. Those two losses (Houston and AZ) were both playoff teams that year.
(05-11-2023, 02:24 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: You completely contradict yourself with your statement immediately after the bolded comment. And, yes, they lost to a Texans team that they held to 10 points. The 2015 team had a better defense that didn't rely on turnovers from really bad QB play. The defense was every bit as good as the offense. They were more balanced than the 2005 team.
That 2015 team was 10-2 when they lost Dalton for the season. Those two losses (Houston and AZ) were both playoff teams that year.
I
Oh, Racer. You're smarter than that, man. I'm not contradicting myself - I am making a point. Why else do you think I said "Does that tell us anything conclusive?" The point is why does one game "tell us all we need to know" and another doesn't? That Denver game, in isolation, doesn't tell us any more about that team than the loss to the Texans did. Hell, I explained that and agreed with everything else you just said as the post went on.
(05-11-2023, 03:36 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Oh, Racer. You're smarter than that, man. I'm not contradicting myself - I am making a point. Why else do you think I said "Does that tell us anything conclusive?" The point is why does one game "tell us all we need to know" and another doesn't? That Denver game, in isolation, doesn't tell us any more about that team than the loss to the Texans did. Hell, I explained that and agreed with everything else you just said as the post went on.
Did you even read what I said? Lol.
I did and I didn't mean to come across as contradictory. That Texans loss, however, was a classic Dalton primetime crapping of the bed. When your defense gives up 10 points, you should probably win and that 2015 defense was really good. I also think some other teams (Pats, steelers, etc) were "off" that year.
Regardless, sorry if I sounded like I was arguing. Hopefully, this 2023 Bengals Team makes us forget all the "near misses" and wins the title.
(05-11-2023, 11:16 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: By who?
No, there is a significant era difference between pre-2011 and post-2011. 2011 is the year the NFL got sued for concussions, NFL concussions were being talked about in front of Congress, they changed the kickoff rules to lower concussions. A bunch of former NFL players were killing themselves, and in 2013 they introduced the crown of the helmet rule, concussion protocols, etc.
That play was the second time Harrison headhunted and knocked a guy out in that game in 2010. 0 penalties were called against him, which guess what, didn't look great when the NFL was getting lawsuits and scrutiny off the field. That's why things changed.
The time between Chad and AJ wasn't big from a calendar standpoint, but from an NFL standpoint it's enormous.
Here's 2011 when he does the same dirty shit and actually gets a penalty.
I didn't make the claim that he was a Hall of Famer, I said he was elite in his prime and the best WR the Bengals ever had. So why do I have to prove you wrong on something you just made up? I have always said he is a fringe guy who probably would go in if he didn't have to play in the AFCN during that era, or played on a better team, but I said that about Corey Dillon, too.
- - - - - - - - - - -
As a side note, thinking about all of this has just revved my hate for the Scumbag Steelers back up despite it being the middle of the offseason. Made even worse by how they get excuses made for them and then they pretend they are the victims.
![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
