(07-21-2023, 11:42 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Johnny Bench is the greatest Red, and it isn't even close. He is the best ever at his position. Period. Morgan & Rose clearly round out the medal places. I'd put Larkin in the group with Frank Robinson to round out the top 5. Though Votto has a pretty good case.
Perez, Seaver, Rixey, Rousch.
I find it odd someone is using WAR to argue Larkin over Rose, when Rose's WAR is higher than Barry's. Rose is the Red's leader in WAR, OWAR, Games, AB, PA, Runs, Hits, TBs, 2Bs, singles, runs created, EBHs, times on base, CS, & outs. Larkin leads in power speed.
As for defense, Larkin was good. But the best defensive SS in Red's history is Dave Concepcion. Or, if you want to go WAAAY back, George Wright.
Larkin was a better player than Morgan though, only unable to walk at such a prodigious rate, but was better at everything else (on worse teams at that).
And yes, of course the guy who's played the most games ever will have a higher WAR; you can't make the statement you did seriously. It's like what I originally said about the hits; Cobb had just a 75 or so less and did it in 500 less games, eras be damned.
Larkin: .003 WAR per game, 3.71 per season
Rose: 0.0028 WAR per game (Reds), 0.0022 per game (career) 4.10 per season (Reds), 3.31 per season (career)
So though the numbers are miniscule, Larkin is better than Rose all across the board, except for WAR per season with the Reds, otherwise he was more valuable than Rose on a per game basis.
(07-21-2023, 12:05 AM)bfine32 Wrote: So longevity doesn't count? I suppose you have Andrew Luck up there with Tom Brady cause if Andrew Luck had played 20 years....
How about fielding, versatility, and base running? Does Yaz "obliterate" him in all those too?
The bolded let's me know the has run its course.
Yup, because a guy that played 7 years in the league with one team, vs a guy who played 20 years on 2 different teams, is as apt as two guys that played 19 years ON THE SAME TEAM AND CAREERS EVEN OVERLAPPED.
Great comparison, Bfine
EDIT* and longevity CAN be a good thing, but that doesn't make you the best player ever, otherwise Julio Franco and Minnie Minoso would be considered among the greatest players: production in relation to posting time is all that matters.
Versatility, no, but then I guess you can say that Rose was the greatest Utility player ever.
Baserunning? Yes, Yaz was better, actually: at 57% SB%, Rose actually HURT his team as a baserunning, while Yaz had a 59% SB%, so while he too hurt his team, he didn't hurt them as much as Rose did (67% is the lowest your SB% can be before your baserunning starts coating your team runs).
Effort =\= skill. When I played in HS, University and community ball, I was thrown out a grand total of 3 times, in over 150 SB attempts (and on one of them, I was actually safe at home but the ump was a punk kid) and I've been overweight my whole life (ie I'm super slow). Why was I so successful? Because I actually WAS a good baserunner amongst my peers, while Rose was absolutely not.
And I gave 100% effort on the basepaths as well.
Fielding? Yaz better again, with 6 gold gloves (Rose had 2), 2nd in UZR at his position (while Rose isn't even top 25 at ANY of the positions he played, "'cause he was so versatile!)"
Look, you're talking about heart, hustle and the will to win: guess what? I had the too when I played in my youth and I won 2 awards due to that (MIP of the league in HS and MVP of the league in my last year of community ball) and I wasn't even close to being the best player on my team even, in those two seasons, let alone the league.
And running to first base on a BB is useless; if every 3rd time he did that he stole 2nd, THEN it would mean something, but that's something to let the fans pants cream than actual practicality in the sport.
I tell ya, it worked when I was playing peewee with other 10 year olds, but there's a reason why nobody does it.
When the only stats you can point to, are ones he got because he played longer than anyone else, it greatly diminished them. Paul Molitor is his closest comparison on BRef and I would take Molitor over Rose 10/10 times. He hustled 100% of the time too and never gave up on a play, but how many Reds fans know that?
We've derailed this thread long-enough, but please don't ever come at me again with half-assed jokes about drunk Canadians or age or any lazy attempts at comparisons: I know my baseball and am willing to stake my life on my baseball knowledge.
As a last thing to end off the baseball talk, I ask you to do tomorrow's Immaculate Grid and post your results here. The lower the score, the better you do.
https://www.immaculategrid.com/
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