Sports Illustrated - Lou article

[NUGDUKWE]

(08-11-2023, 08:26 AM)Sled21 Wrote: No, it's not. Not 1 All Pro on this defense, and very few Pro Bowlers. The players call Lou the Mad Scientist for a reason. His half time adjustments are magnificient.

Again the coaching deserves a lot of credit. But not 1 All Pro? Reader is an all pro. I don't care if he's not technically labelled that if watch this team you have to know that and you can't coach what he's able to do. Bates and Bell may not be all pro on there own but they make one as a tandem. Just look at the Baltimore fumble that play doesn't happen without all three of those guys making great plays in that series.

[jj22]

(08-11-2023, 09:07 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: That's just it. The coaches were bad. It wasn't just the players. Sure Burrow is better than Dalton and Chase is better than Green at the point he was. The same with the defense we added some great players in free agency. But everyone to act like it was all the players fault is a little ridiculous.

I think we may be confusing bad with inexperienced. Bad coaching can ruin great players like Burrow and Chase. We've seen these college stars fail many times due to bad coaching staffs. Not to defend Herbert.... Also not to over hype Lawrence...

Lou and Zac were inexperienced (and Zack was young). It understandably took them some time to get their feet under them. They also had to learn the FO which is challenging given most coaching hires are able to pick their GM or the GM is new and knows who they want to pick as their HC all in advance. 

Zac had to learn how to be a HC, OC, and Scout. One of the reasons their first draft was so bad is they came in late and none of the work was done on the 2019 draft class because the coaching staff wasn't set, and our 2 scouts at the time just couldn't do it all.

[NUGDUKWE]

(08-11-2023, 09:23 AM)jj22 Wrote: I think we may be confusing bad with inexperienced. Bad coaching can ruin great players like Burrow and Chase. We've seen these college stars fail many times due to bad coaching staffs. Not to defend Herbert.... Also not to over hype Lawrence...

Lou and Zac were inexperienced (and Zack was young). It understandably took them some time to get their feet under them. They also had to learn the FO which is challenging given most coaching hires are able to pick their GM or the GM is new and knows who they want to pick as their HC all in advance. 

Zac had to learn how to be a HC, OC, and Scout. One of the reasons their first draft was so bad is they came in late and none of the work was done on the 2019 draft class because the coaching staff wasn't set, and our 2 scouts at the time just couldn't do it all.

I'm not saying they haven't improved and certainly inexperience has led to they're struggles. But they were bad inexperienced or not. While they have improved the level of talent has gone up right along with that so it's hard to distinguish one from the other. Taylor has chosen to be the OC and that's whole other can of worms to get into one could argue we may be a better team if he relinquished his control. I will say one thing I really do admire about Zac is his off season approach and even during the season not putting unnecessary strain on players bodies. 

[jj22]

Can you fix bad tho? I'm not sold you can fix bad. There are plenty of Assistant coaches that were "bad" HC and HC'ing just wasn't meant of them. Not sure they would have ever turned good.

Now I will say many wouldn't have gotten the chance Zac and Company got given not all Owners are as patient as MB and family are.

Maybe if they did they would have turned it around.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-10-2023, 02:36 PM)jj22 Wrote: Stories will be told how we mocked the Lou hire, just to realize the gem he is.

It’s also interesting to think if it wasn’t for Taylor he’d still be an unknown secondary coach getting fired with every coaching staff he’s with.

There probably is a lot of Lou’s in the coaching ranks. It’s a good ole boys club so we’ll keep seeing these  failed dc retreads get opportunities and constantly fired  before a hidden gems get shots.

This. I was a little more patient than most, but even I was skeptical of Lou after the second year. 

To your point about the good ol boys club, I guess it turned out to be a good thing that we hired a guy like Zac with no ties to those retread DCs you alluded to. Otherwise, Lou might still be latching on to any staff that would hire him as a DB coach. Everything sure worked out great according to their plan they kept telling us about. Getting #9 sure didn't hurt either.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-10-2023, 05:20 PM)sandwedge Wrote: That is fair. In Zac's case, you can only do so much house cleaning in the 1st year. It's not like you can field a whole new team. I even think Zac would admit that hiring Turner was a mistake that shouldn't have happen.

This has been the only thing Zac has done that I didn't like. Otherwise, I've been on his side even throughout the losing. I remember most everyone was saying do or die in year three, me included, and lo and behold we go to the Super Bowl.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-11-2023, 09:07 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: That's just it. The coaches were bad. It wasn't just the players. Sure Burrow is better than Dalton and Chase is better than Green at the point he was. The same with the defense we added some great players in free agency. But everyone to act like it was all the players fault is a little ridiculous.

Is it though? I recall Teryl Austin getting fired midseason and Marvin having to step in to keep the defense from setting the record as the worst in league history for total defense. I think a lot of fans forget that nugget. They sucked.

[NUGDUKWE]

(08-11-2023, 10:32 AM)Wyche Wrote: Is it though? I recall Teryl Austin getting fired midseason and Marvin having to step in to keep the defense from setting the record as the worst in league history for total defense. I think a lot of fans forget that nugget. They sucked.

Yes I remember that. The talent level did improve but people want to act like it was Dunlap or other players that didn't want to conform. When I think it was more Reader>than aged out Geno Trey>Lawson and Hilton Awuzie Bell and Apple>WJIII Dennard and Illoka(can't remember if he was still on the team). But that is where the whole talent vs coaching debate comes in. Sure all teams need talent but is it that talent holding the Chiefs to 3 points in the 2nd half more than the coaching. I know they both play a part but which is greater. I just don't think we write off the players we lost and say it doesn't matter because we have Lou. Hopefully I'm wrong and we will still play at that level or possibly better but I'm skeptical.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-11-2023, 10:52 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Yes I remember that. The talent level did improve but people want to act like it was Dunlap or other players that didn't want to conform. When I think it was more Reader>than aged out Geno Trey>Lawson and Hilton Awuzie Bell and Apple>WJIII Dennard and Illoka(can't remember if he was still on the team). But that is where the whole talent vs coaching debate comes in. Sure all teams need talent but is it that talent holding the Chiefs to 3 points in the 2nd half more than the coaching. I know they both play a part but which is greater. I just don't think we write off the players we lost and say it doesn't matter because we have Lou. Hopefully I'm wrong and we will still play at that level or possibly better but I'm skeptical.

I get that for sure. All of your talent assessments are spot on.....but that's kinda the point. We needed to get faster, and smarter, on defense to execute his scheme. There were some excellent plays by the guys in the '21 AFCCG, but there was also a brilliant adjustment at halftime that confused Mahommes and the great Andy Reid. That was what REALLY made me a believer in Lou. I thought he did a great job that season, but I did realize they had drastically improved the personnel on that side of the ball. So, like you, I was still a little bit skeptical, until he pulled of that stunt in KC. 

Edit: I certainly understand the uncertainty regarding the youth in the defensive backfield, but we must remember these guys were handpicked to execute the scheme. It's up to that talent to make their choices look good. So, it's a bit of both.... coaching and talent, imo.

[NUGDUKWE]

(08-11-2023, 10:19 AM)jj22 Wrote: Can you fix bad tho? I'm not sold you can fix bad. There are plenty of Assistant coaches that were "bad" HC and HC'ing just wasn't meant of them. Not sure they would have ever turned good.

Now I will say many wouldn't have gotten the chance Zac and Company got given not all Owners are as patient as MB and family are.

Maybe if they did they would have turned it around.

I think you can. Depending on the level of bad ( maybe not finger gunning a girls butt at the bar after a primetime loss bad ). I still think Taylor and company do a lot of bad things on offense that maybe the talent has helped overall but hopefully they just continue to learn and get better.

[sandwedge]

(08-11-2023, 10:52 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Yes I remember that. The talent level did improve but people want to act like it was Dunlap or other players that didn't want to conform. When I think it was more Reader>than aged out Geno Trey>Lawson and Hilton Awuzie Bell and Apple>WJIII Dennard and Illoka(can't remember if he was still on the team). But that is where the whole talent vs coaching debate comes in. Sure all teams need talent but is it that talent holding the Chiefs to 3 points in the 2nd half more than the coaching. I know they both play a part but which is greater. I just don't think we write off the players we lost and say it doesn't matter because we have Lou. Hopefully I'm wrong and we will still play at that level or possibly better but I'm skeptical.

I don't entirely agree with a lot of what you're saying. This team has a lot of very good players. Some are elite, some are just doing their job well. I think where Zac and staff excel is getting these guys on the same page and putting them in position to win. Then it is up to your players to execute, that is where talent comes in. I think that is why you hear the players saying they like playing for Zac and Lou.
I don't care how many All Pros you have, if you are not all on the same script, just out there free lancing, you are undisciplined and probably not going to win to much. 
As for Dunlap, he had to go. Marvin had to ride his ass because he was a lazy MFer and when Merv left, ol'Carlos thought he had easy street... Zac sent a message to the team.

[NUGDUKWE]

(08-11-2023, 11:20 AM)sandwedge Wrote: I don't entirely agree with a lot of what you're saying. This team has a lot of very good players. Some are elite, some are just doing their job well. I think where Zac and staff excel is getting these guys on the same page and putting them in position to win. Then it is up to your players to execute, that is where talent comes in. I think that is why you hear the players saying they like playing for Zac and Lou.
I don't care how many All Pros you have, if you are not all on the same script, just out there free lancing, you are undisciplined and probably not going to win to much. 
As for Dunlap, he had to go. Marvin had to ride his ass because he was a lazy MFer and when Merv left, ol'Carlos thought he had easy street... Zac sent a message to the team.

I'm not saying the coaching is bad or there haven't been great halftime adjustments. But I think it takes a special group of players to communicate and execute said game plan and adjustment. As great as half time adjustments have been they need to be executed on the fly. I guess I'll just need to see this group show they can do the same and if they can't that the coaches adjust accordingly.

As for the Dunlap comments I just will never get on board with throwing a guy who played here a decade under the bus. I don't care how it ended. Did it help letting him go? Sure but we had Hubbard waiting in the wings and it was his time anyway that's no shot at Dunlap. I also think all of the other player changes that I pointed out where a bigger reason for the defenses success over Dunlap. I also never heard anything about Dunlap being lazy and not sure where that comes from.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-11-2023, 11:45 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I'm not saying the coaching is bad or there haven't been great halftime adjustments. But I think it takes a special group of players to communicate and execute said game plan and adjustment. As great as half time adjustments have been they need to be executed on the fly. I guess I'll just need to see this group show they can do the same and if they can't that the coaches adjust accordingly.

As for the Dunlap comments I just will never get on board with throwing a guy who played here a decade under the bus. I don't care how it ended. Did it help letting him go? Sure but we had Hubbard waiting in the wings and it was his time anyway that's no shot at Dunlap. I also think all of the other player changes that I pointed out where a bigger reason for the defenses success over Dunlap. I also never heard anything about Dunlap being lazy and not sure where that comes from.

It was the main concern on his scouting report. If I remember right, that's what caused him to slip into the 2nd round. I'm like you though, I'm not going to throw too much shade his way. I didn't like the way he handled his exit, but he was a good player for us for a decade.

[HarleyDog]

(08-10-2023, 02:36 PM)jj22 Wrote: Stories will be told how we mocked the Lou hire, just to realize the gem he is.

Not to mention, we were extremely blessed that everyone offered the position before Lou turned it down.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-11-2023, 11:20 AM)sandwedge Wrote: I don't entirely agree with a lot of what you're saying. This team has a lot of very good players. Some are elite, some are just doing their job well. I think where Zac and staff excel is getting these guys on the same page and putting them in position to win. Then it is up to your players to execute, that is where talent comes in. I think that is why you hear the players saying they like playing for Zac and Lou.
I don't care how many All Pros you have, if you are not all on the same script, just out there free lancing, you are undisciplined and probably not going to win to much. 
As for Dunlap, he had to go. Marvin had to ride his ass because he was a lazy MFer and when Merv left, ol'Carlos thought he had easy street... Zac sent a message to the team.

I love how Zac and Lou keep the players so disciplined. We are one of the best teams in not committing dumb penalties.

We should take pride in this, and I hope this continues to be the case. The best teams play disciplined and block and tackle well.

I think the blocking should come around this year which is what will push this team to the next level.

[Sled21]

(08-11-2023, 09:07 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: That's just it. The coaches were bad. It wasn't just the players. Sure Burrow is better than Dalton and Chase is better than Green at the point he was. The same with the defense we added some great players in free agency. But everyone to act like it was all the players fault is a little ridiculous.

Players then.... "What are we doing", "I want to play my position the way I've always played it,"   "We have no communication" =Post the depth chart on line, take your ball and go home attitude.

Players now.... "Lou is a Mad Scientist,"   "We love playing for Lou, he communicates and cares about his players"   "Lou let's his coaches coach their positions"

What changed, the players or the coaches, because it's the same coaches.

[NUGDUKWE]

(08-11-2023, 03:22 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Players then.... "What are we doing", "I want to play my position the way I've always played it,"   "We have no communication" =Post the depth chart on line, take your ball and go home attitude.

Players now.... "Lou is a Mad Scientist,"   "We love playing for Lou, he communicates and cares about his players"   "Lou let's his coaches coach their positions"

What changed, the players or the coaches, because it's the same coaches.

One player bumped heads with Lou. Dunlap and that doesn't make him a bad person or a bad player some people just don't get along. He was also upset that the team didn't atleast talk to him first which is something this particular staff did before and has done since ( was the reason Jonah asked for a trade ). We did upgrade the talent across the board on defense but to point to Dunlap and act like the guys we got rid of just had poor attitudes is a bit silly. It really seems to have come down two guys who personalities clashed.

[Sled21]

(08-11-2023, 03:52 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: One player bumped heads with Lou. Dunlap and that doesn't make him a bad person or a bad player some people just don't get along. He was also upset that the team didn't atleast talk to him first which is something this particular staff did before and has done since ( was the reason Jonah asked for a trade ). We did upgrade the talent across the board on defense but to point to Dunlap and act like the guys we got rid of just had poor attitudes is a bit silly. It really seems to have come down two guys who personalities clashed.

Uh, it was Geno who posted online "What are we doing" and it was Bates who said there was no communication. It wasn't just Dunlap, players then justed wanted to do it the way they always had done things before. Bates finally came around for the most part, Dunlap and Geno never did. Of course, Geno was injured so he was ineffective anyway.

[NUGDUKWE]

(08-11-2023, 04:05 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Uh, it was Geno who posted online "What are we doing" and it was Bates who said there was no communication. It wasn't just Dunlap, players then justed wanted to do it the way they always had done things before. Bates finally came around for the most part, Dunlap and Geno never did. Of course, Geno was injured so he was ineffective anyway.

Okay so the coaches were bad at communicating. Maybe they've gotten better. Goes back to what I was originally saying the coaches weren't very good at first and as they've improved so has the talent level so it's hard to determine which is the bigger driving force to our success.