It's Time We Moved on from Burrow

[Shake n Blake]

(10-05-2023, 07:01 AM)NotBigzo Wrote: I couldn’t care less about meeting other fans criteria of what a fan should think or feel in order to be a real fan, especially if it requires being in some La La land where our QB—who currently is Akili Smith bad—is better than a QB who, at minimum is just as good as him PLUS a bevy of first round picks.

I'm usually more willing to hear people out than a lot of people here, but what's the point? That Herbert is better overall than Burrow just because Burrow has been hurt for 3 games and is off to a rough start?

Or that if the Chargers came calling with Herbert and a boatload of picks, we should listen? That's a dream world scenario that will never happen.

Burrow is better than Herbert. He's proven this both statistically (when he's not injured) and also via playoff wins and a Super Bowl appearance.

That said, he's not so much better that the Chargers would call with Herbert and a bunch or 1st rounders while Burrow is limping around.

Do you think Herbert is better than Burrow? Is that what this is about? I'm asking sincerely.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-06-2023, 04:11 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Do you think Herbert is better than Burrow? Is that what this is about? I'm asking sincerely.

He's just a Chiefs fan masquerading as a Bengal fan trolling the board.

[casear2727]

(10-06-2023, 09:43 AM)PhilHos Wrote: He's just a Chiefs fan masquerading as a Bengal fan trolling the board.

The guy is an obvious troll.  Instead of getting rid of him mods are engaging with him, Im sure he is enjoying himself.

[Destro]

Guy just said he is "Faux Burrow."

[Housh]

FWIW a lot of outlets are reporting Burrow is moving better and it has been factored into the offense install

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-06-2023, 10:15 AM)Housh Wrote: FWIW a lot of outlets are reporting Burrow is moving better and it has been factored into the offense install

What it’s worth is very little. Let’s see him move against an actual pass rush. What he’s doing in practice is irrelevant.

[*jason*]

(10-06-2023, 04:11 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm usually more willing to hear people out than a lot of people here, but what's the point? That Herbert is better overall than Burrow just because Burrow has been hurt for 3 games and is off to a rough start?

Or that if the Chargers came calling with Herbert and a boatload of picks, we should listen? That's a dream world scenario that will never happen.

Burrow is better than Herbert. He's proven this both statistically (when he's not injured) and also via playoff wins and a Super Bowl appearance.

That said, he's not so much better that the Chargers would call with Herbert and a bunch or 1st rounders while Burrow is limping around.

Do you think Herbert is better than Burrow? Is that what this is about? I'm asking sincerely.

Yeah... it's silly. Herbert is really good. Maybe just as good as Burrow. He's definitely less accomplished though, and those are the only tangible facts we have. Kobe was maybe just as good of a player as Michael Jordan. He was less accomplished though. Tangible facts.

Oh... and I HATE YOU JOE BURROW!!!!

[jj22]

If yall'd hear the things Charger fans say about Burrow all day every day (even before the injury) you'd never be propping Herbert up like this. Even if you do believe it.

It's embarrassing to read yall showering Herbert with love like this. Love on Tua and Hurts. At least their teams and community have shown some respect to Burrow. The Chargers community and fanbase has worked for years slamming Burrow, and genuinely believe he is a bum QB who is carried by his team. For them, it isn't even a debate.

Get it together.

[TheCincinnatiKid]

(10-06-2023, 10:15 AM)Housh Wrote: FWIW a lot of outlets are reporting Burrow is moving better and it has been factored into the offense install

Fingers crossed, as we're going nowhere until he can move better.

As for Burrow v Herbert.. they're a really good example of a case where each team got their guy. You can argue Herbert's mechanics are purer, someone else can argue Burrow's proven in winning games that matter... ultimately, we've got a Franchise QB and there isn't anyone I'd trade him for. I'd agree Mahomes is ahead of Burrow, but I wouldn't swap the QB's there either. We've got our guy, and we are a very legitimate Super Bowl threat with him. He just needs to sort the calf out... 

and maybe sit out the preseason next year. Dude's luck there is ridiculous.

[jj22]

(10-06-2023, 12:09 PM)TheCincinnatiKid Wrote: As for Burrow v Herbert.. they're a really good example of a case where each team got their guy. 

Says who? Chargers community, beat writers, and fans claim Bengals made a significant blunder picking Burrow over Herbert, and maintain we would have won 2 Super Bowls by now if Herbert (and the extra picks) was the pick.

For what Burrow accomplished, we shouldn't even be graceful in our praise of Herbert. We as a community should hold strong and make sure it's known to anyone that will question it, that the two shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence. 

The debate is between Burrow and Hurts as to who the top QB in that class was. Sorry Charger fans and Bengals Herbert lovers. Why are we ignoring Tua and Hurts for Herbert still? This isn't 2020.

At this point Charger fans should be in conversations with Jaguar fans. And that's even a debate they may not want to walk into given Lawrence has a playoff win to his name.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-06-2023, 04:11 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm usually more willing to hear people out than a lot of people here, but what's the point? That Herbert is better overall than Burrow just because Burrow has been hurt for 3 games and is off to a rough start?

Or that if the Chargers came calling with Herbert and a boatload of picks, we should listen? That's a dream world scenario that will never happen.

Burrow is better than Herbert. He's proven this both statistically (when he's not injured) and also via playoff wins and a Super Bowl appearance.

That said, he's not so much better that the Chargers would call with Herbert and a bunch or 1st rounders while Burrow is limping around.

Do you think Herbert is better than Burrow? Is that what this is about? I'm asking sincerely.

I'm definitely not a Herbert fan, but they're pretty comparable stat-wise.

Let's take out Herbert's and Burrow's rookie year and this year since Burrow as injured those years.
Let's focus on 2021-2022 regular season.

Herbert (34 games):
Attempts - 1371
Completion % - 67.1%
Passing Yards - 9753
Pass TDs - 63
INTs - 25
YPA - 7.1

Burrow (32 games):
Attempts - 1126
Completion % - 69.3%
Passing Yards - 9086
Pass TDs - 69
INTs - 26
YPA - 8.1

I think where Burrow really distinguishes himself above Herbert is his postseason success.

[TheCincinnatiKid]

(10-06-2023, 12:14 PM)jj22 Wrote: Says who? Chargers community, beat writers, and fans claim Bengals made a significant blunder picking Burrow over Herbert, and maintain we would have won 2 Super Bowls by now if Herbert (and the extra picks) was the pick.

For what Burrow accomplished, we shouldn't even be graceful in our praise of Herbert. We as a community should hold strong and make sure it's known to anyone that will question it, that the two shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence. 

The debate is between Burrow and Hurts as to who the top QB in that class was. Sorry Charger fans and Bengals Herbert lovers. Why are we ignoring Tua and Hurts for Herbert still? This isn't 2020.

Lol dude, if you've got your own issues with Chargers fans thats not really my deal. I don't really care what any Chargers-affiliated opinion says. Im here discussing the NFL with fellow Bengals fans.

I'd rather have sensible discussions about the sport than spend my effort ensure there's some 'community strong' movement, which ensures we can never mention Herbert and Burrow in the same sentence. 

Herbert is clearly a good QB and seems to have a decent thing going on in LA. Burrow is clearly our guy and has had more success. I think we have a better all-round team than LAC. Objectively, I think it's reasonable enough to say Burrow isn't lightyears better than Herbert. I'd say the big edge he has over Herbert is ability in the clutch games. While the offence doesn't roll in the playoffs, Burrow is still likely to make that one play that makes a difference. Herbert so far has only presided over a 2nd half choke job and multiple seasons of not reaching the playoffs. I don't pin that all on Herbert, but he doesn't seem to drag a team through to success like great QBs do.  

[*bfine32*]

(10-06-2023, 12:03 PM)jj22 Wrote: If yall'd hear the things Charger fans say about Burrow all day every day (even before the injury) you'd never be propping Herbert up like this. Even if you do believe it.

It's embarrassing to read yall showering Herbert with love like this. Love on Tua and Hurts. At least their teams and community have shown some respect to Burrow. The Chargers community and fanbase has worked for years slamming Burrow, and genuinely believe he is a bum QB who is carried by his team. For them, it isn't even a debate.

Get it together.

I feel like you're chastising us for something, I'm just not sure what it is?

Do we need to "get it together" by trashing other elite young QBs in the league, because other fanbases bash JB (according to your anecdotal evidence)?

I feel like I can praise the play of multiple folks on other teams. Hell, I know it sacrilege, but I dig Mike Tomlin.  

[jj22]

(10-06-2023, 12:30 PM)TheCincinnatiKid Wrote:  I'd say the big edge he has over Herbert is ability in the clutch games. While the offence doesn't roll in the playoffs, Burrow is still likely to make that one play that makes a difference.  

Is he clutch? You guys clearly aren't familiar with all the attacks on Burrow.

Burrow isn't as clutch as you make it sound. He couldn't muster any points in 6 drives to win a Super bowl, and couldn't muster any points in 3 drives to beat KC last year. He couldn't muster any points to pull away from Ravens when it looked like they would lose the wildcard game last season (bailed out by Hubbard).

Burrow losing the clutch narrative has actually been something mentioned a ton by his haters. 

[jj22]

(10-06-2023, 12:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I feel like you're chastising us for something, I'm just not sure what it is?

Do we need to "get it together" by trashing other elite young QBs in the league, because other fanbases bash JB (according to your anecdotal evidence)?

I feel like I can praise the play of multiple folks on other teams. Hell, I know it sacrilege, but I dig Mike Tomlin.  

We need to get it together by rallying around Burrow at the very least when discussing the Burrow v Herbert old outdated debate that Herbert hasn't even been able to keep up with. While Burrow being under attack now may be warranted, he has been long under attack by Herbert lovers in ways that should rally us all to end the debate and declare Burrow the better QB and move on to other more worthy competitors (Hurts, Tua). Hurts is an adequate debate. What next? We debating Burrow v Daniel Jones? We've made it to a certain level (up until this year). Fans need to act like it. Burrow should only be debated against a very few Qb's.

The question isn't should the Bengals have traded the pick to the Chargers and took Herbert, the question is should the Bengals have traded the pick and took Thomas, more picks, Tee and Hurts.

We would have still got Chase or Waddle with Chargers or Dolphins 2021 first round pick.

[TheCincinnatiKid]

(10-06-2023, 12:40 PM)jj22 Wrote: Is he clutch? You guys clearly aren't familiar with all the attacks on Burrow.

Burrow isn't as clutch as you make it sound. He couldn't muster any points in 6 drives to win a Super bowl, and couldn't muster any points in 3 drives to beat KC last year. 

Burrow losing the clutch narrative has actually been something mentioned a ton by his haters. 

Is Joe Burrow clutch? Yes, certainly in comparison to Justin Herbert thus far. I don't need to be familiar with 'attacks' on Burrow... why would I care what people think about him?

He and the team flatout failed to win the Super Bowl, from that INT onwards really. We had multiple chances to make it a two-score game with one decent drive, but didn't manage it. Rams D-Line destroyed out O-Line, that was the story of the game from 20-13 onwards.

But being clutch doesn't mean you win in every single instance. There were 'clutch' elements to Burrow's performance in a losing AFCCG last year... we'd have lost by 10 or so without a couple of the big plays we got. The 4th down play for one was vital in keeping us in the game. 

Ultimately, Burrow is 5-2 in the postseason with a franchise that is usually laughable in the postseason. The offence don't 'excel' in the postseason, but he makes the necessary plays at the right time. If we aren't wiling to call him 'clutch', then he's certainly not 'anti-clutch' at the very least. He's more likely to win the game with the right opportunity, than lose it.

I don't really care what 'haters' or other people have to say about this... I have my opinion on it, and I don't need to consult other people to give my opinion on an internet forum. I have zero idea why you seem to care so much about what Chargers fans think.

[*bfine32*]

(10-06-2023, 12:44 PM)jj22 Wrote: We need to get it together by rallying around Burrow at the very least when discussing the Burrow v Herbert old outdated debate that Herbert hasn't even been able to keep up with. While Burrow being under attack now may be warranted, he has been long under attack by Herbert lovers in ways that should rally us all to end the debate and declare Burrow the better QB and move on to other more worthy competitors (Hurts, Tua).

The question isn't should the Bengals have traded the pick to the Chargers and took Herbert, the question is should the Bengals have traded the pick and took Thomas, more picks, Tee and Hurts.

I don't think the "Burrow Boyz" can be blamed for not loving Burrow enough, nor do I feel comparing him to any elite young QB, including Herbert, is unwarranted. 

During the off-season there was a poll of some sort that had Mahomes 1, Allen 2, Burrow 3. The debate turned to who is actually better Allen or Burrow and the "Burrow Boyz" went with JB and it was silly to bring Herbert into the comparison. I suggested Hurts and was labeled "Fred 2" and only trolling. 

[reuben.ahmed]

Watching the 2021 and 2022 highlights, that Joe Burrow was a different man. We have to get that guy back!

[jj22]

(10-06-2023, 12:55 PM)TheCincinnatiKid Wrote:  I don't need to be familiar with 'attacks' on Burrow... why would I care what people think about him?

Because you'd realize how debatable Burrow's "clutch" status has been the past year. And if you were talking to NFL fans outside of this board, calling Burrow clutch would open you up to a bombardment of "feedback" on why he isn't as clutch as the narrative may make it sound. At least not when we needed him to be the most (the Super Bowl, the last couple drives of the AFCC).

The defense has certainly been clutch in the post season, getting us past both wildcard rounds, which if they don't, there is no playoff runs. I argue his Tennessee game in the division round he was clutch, and while the defense shut down KC in the second half and overtime in the AFCC in 2021, he came through with big plays to keep us in it.

[jj22]

(10-06-2023, 12:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I don't think the "Burrow Boyz" can be blamed for not loving Burrow enough, nor do I feel comparing him to any elite young QB, including Herbert, is unwarranted. 

During the off-season there was a poll of some sort that had Mahomes 1, Allen 2, Burrow 3. The debate turned to who is actually better Allen or Burrow and the "Burrow Boyz" went with JB and it was silly to bring Herbert into the comparison. I suggested Hurts and was labeled "Fred 2" and only trolling. 

I've always thought that Herbert (by the media in 2021) was forced on us as a top 3 QB and he should have been made to accomplish something (post season success) before being placed up there with Mahomes. So I've always felt like Herbert was overrated. 

We have Jackson who has a MVP to his name we are equally familiar with, and we as Bengals fans "discussing NFL" don't show him any love. So we do have the ability to ignore stats etc. when making sure it's known our QB is on another level then another. I feel like the Burrow v Herbert debate is forced by the media and we as Bengals fans play into it instead of recognizing Burrow is far beyond that comparison and Herbert (and his fans) while some like him I get, need to be debating him against Lawrence, Watson, Prescott, Stafford etc.

Hell is Herbert even in the same sentence as Purdy?! Those are the debates Charger fans think they are above when they try to prop him up against Burrow.