It's Time We Moved on from Burrow

[TheCincinnatiKid]

(10-06-2023, 01:02 PM)jj22 Wrote: Because you'd realize how debatable Burrow's "clutch" status has been the past year. And if you were talking to NFL fans outside of this board, calling Burrow clutch would open you up to a bombardment of proof he isn't as clutch as the narrative may make it sound. At least not when we needed him to be the most (the Super Bowl, the last couple drives of the AFCC).

And I could point those people to the 4th down play to Chase.... various plays in the 2021 AFCCG... various points of Burrow's career as a whole... it would be a bombardment of opinions I'd be addressing, with my own. 

Of course it's debatable. I never said it wasn't. I just said that in my opinion he's more clutch than Justin Herbert. 

I really don't know what point you're trying to make here my dude. I do talk to people about the NFL outside of this forum. I don't need to know what people's opinions are to form my own. The back and forth of discussing opinions is what makes a lot of talking about sports interesting, so I certainly try to respect other viewpoints. But I don't need to hear them to have an opinion myself.

But if you're really that bothered by some narrative that some Chargers fans have... then ok, I guess?

[jj22]

Oh he's definitely more clutch then Herbert. There isn't really anything Herbert has on him.

I can point to a number of QB who has accomplished more and is more clutch then Herbert. I'm not sure why he's even mentioned on this board. It's not being bothered by Charger fans, most around the NFL has long moved on from this fake Burrow v Herbert narrative. it's a legit question as to why we around here has struggled to.

[TheCincinnatiKid]

(10-06-2023, 01:54 PM)jj22 Wrote: Oh he's definitely more clutch then Herbert. There isn't really anything Herbert has on him.

I can point to a number of QB who has accomplished more and is more clutch then Herbert. I'm not sure why he's even mentioned on this board. It's not being bothered by Charger fans, most around the NFL has long moved on from this fake Burrow v Herbert narrative. it's a legit question as to why we around here has struggled to.

Probably mentioned a lot together as they weren't drafted all that far apart and have similar career stats. It's not a ridiculous comparison.

People generally talk well of Herbert, but most people talk of Burrow in the elite. I think largely people think Burrow is the better of the two, whether it's here or anywhere else.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-06-2023, 12:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I feel like you're chastising us for something, I'm just not sure what it is?

Do we need to "get it together" by trashing other elite young QBs in the league, because other fanbases bash JB (according to your anecdotal evidence)?

I feel like I can praise the play of multiple folks on other teams. Hell, I know it sacrilege, but I dig Mike Tomlin.  

You're damn right it's sacrilege!

[NotBigzo]

(10-06-2023, 04:11 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm usually more willing to hear people out than a lot of people here, but what's the point? That Herbert is better overall than Burrow just because Burrow has been hurt for 3 games and is off to a rough start?

Or that if the Chargers came calling with Herbert and a boatload of picks, we should listen? That's a dream world scenario that will never happen.

Burrow is better than Herbert. He's proven this both statistically (when he's not injured) and also via playoff wins and a Super Bowl appearance.

That said, he's not so much better that the Chargers would call with Herbert and a bunch or 1st rounders while Burrow is limping around.

Do you think Herbert is better than Burrow? Is that what this is about? I'm asking sincerely.

It's not as much as I think Herbert is better than Burrow. But there is an argument to be made that the Bengals would've been better off with Herbert because of the potential trade haul they would've gotten from Miami in exchange for the 1st and settleing with Herbert. It' not that LA ever wanted to trade Herbert and a couple 1sts for Burrow, but if we take the deal from Miami and they get Burrow, then the Bengals likely settle with Herbert given Taylor's time with him in the Senior Bowl.

Most of what i've seen in the Burrow Vs Herbert discussion in this thread seems to forget or ignore that context.  So it's not an apples-to-apples comparison because of the extra draft capital we would've gotten had we traded with Miami and settled with Herbert. 


Think of it like this: Two early first rounds in 21-22 draft could land us Jamar Chase AND Sewell. There wouldn't have been a debate for months about those two.

I find it hard to believe that Herbert wouldn't have been good enough to get us to conference titles with our roster plus 2-3 extra 1sts.

Burrow>Herbert. But Burrow>Herbert, Sewell/Pitts,etc? I wouldn't have cared if the Bengals traded with Miami then, and in retrospect, I can see why some people would still prefer if that trade had actually happend.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-06-2023, 03:03 PM)NotBigzo Wrote: It's not as much as I think Herbert is better than Burrow. But there is an argument to be made that the Bengals would've been better off with Herbert because of the potential trade haul they would've gotten from Miami in exchange for the 1st and settleing with Herbert. It' not that LA ever wanted to trade Herbert and a couple 1sts for Burrow, but if we take the deal from Miami and they get Burrow, then the Bengals likely settle with Herbert given Taylor's time with him in the Senior Bowl.

Most of what i've seen in the Burrow Vs Herbert discussion in this thread seems to forget or ignore that context.  So it's not an apples-to-apples comparison because of the extra draft capital we would've gotten had we traded with Miami and settled with Herbert. 


Think of it like this: Two early first rounds in 21-22 draft could land us Jamar Chase AND Sewell. There wouldn't have been a debate for months about those two.

I find it hard to believe that Herbert wouldn't have been good enough to get us to conference titles with our roster plus 2-3 extra 1sts.

Burrow>Herbert. But Burrow>Herbert, Sewell/Pitts,etc? I wouldn't have cared if the Bengals traded with Miami then, and in retrospect, I can see why some people would still prefer if that trade had actually happend.

The thing is...IF the Bengals drafted Herbert...he might not have developed. Burrow was more the finished product.

I doubt we ended up with Chase AND Sewell.

[NotBigzo]

(10-06-2023, 03:08 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The thing is...IF the Bengals drafted Herbert...he might not have developed. Burrow was more the finished product.

I doubt we ended up with Chase AND Sewell.

Why not? Herbert developed fine with Staley and that guy is a bigger ass than Taylor. He developed in LA, so there's no reason to think he wouldn't develop here.

The only way we don't get Chase and Sewell is if the Miami pick is later in the draft. IDC who's under center for Miami that year. The dysfunction between Flores and Ross would've held the Dolphins back regardless.

[brian5562]

Clutch is more than 4th quarter drives. This franchise hadn't won a playoff game is 30 plus years and the man leads the team to two straight AFC Championships and a Super Bowl trip. His play vs the Raiders was clutch, the man gets sacked 9 times vs. Tenn and still drops a dime to Chase to set up the game winning fg. Countless plays vs the Chiefs in 2021. He was clutch vs the Bills in the way he led the offense.

He's done things for this organization that have never been done, for that he is as clutch as they come.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

As bad of a thread this is it doesn't surprise me coming from the OP and it might snap Burrow out of it yah never know...

I have seen threads like this before and the next game the player the OP mentioned this about has a breakout game.

If Burrow breaks out of his slump and the injury is behind him, I will give Notbigzo some rep points, we will see...

[THE PISTONS]

(10-06-2023, 03:17 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: As bad of a thread this is it doesn't surprise me coming from the OP and it might snap Burrow out of it yah never know...

I have seen threads like this before and the next game the player the OP mentioned this about has a breakout game.

If Burrow breaks out of his slump and the injury is behind him, I will give Notbigzo some rep points, we will see...

No. No. Maybe we could have had Herbert AND Lawrence. Maybe. Could have happened.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-06-2023, 03:20 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: No. No. Maybe we could have had Herbert AND Lawrence. Maybe. Could have happened.

Ha ha 

[Shake n Blake]

(10-06-2023, 09:43 AM)PhilHos Wrote: He's just a Chiefs fan masquerading as a Bengal fan trolling the board.

Considering that he joined the boards in 2021 when we were 3-2 and not considered a threat to the Chiefs yet, and we were almost 3 months away from starting this rivalry, I doubt that's the case.

(10-06-2023, 09:47 AM)casear2727 Wrote: The guy is an obvious troll.  Instead of getting rid of him mods are engaging with him, Im sure he is enjoying himself.

We don't ban people for not liking what they say. "Troll" is a word that gets thrown around way too much these days, and our job is to make sure the person is an actual troll before swinging the hammer around. It's very conceivable that a person really wanted Justin Herbert in the draft, and that their stubborn pride won't allow them to admit they were wrong. 

That wouldn't = troll. So we'd need better evidence.

(10-06-2023, 11:56 AM)jason Wrote: Yeah... it's silly. Herbert is really good. Maybe just as good as Burrow. He's definitely less accomplished though, and those are the only tangible facts we have. Kobe was maybe just as good of a player as Michael Jordan. He was less accomplished though. Tangible facts.

Oh... and I HATE YOU JOE BURROW!!!!

MJ was better than Kobe. Even setting championships and various other accomplishments aside, Jordan was a better athlete with bigger hands who put up better stats. Both base stats and advanced stats. That goes for Jordan vs LeBron as well.

(10-06-2023, 12:18 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm definitely not a Herbert fan, but they're pretty comparable stat-wise.

Let's take out Herbert's and Burrow's rookie year and this year since Burrow as injured those years.
Let's focus on 2021-2022 regular season.

Herbert (34 games):
Attempts - 1371
Completion % - 67.1%
Passing Yards - 9753
Pass TDs - 63
INTs - 25
YPA - 7.1

Burrow (32 games):
Attempts - 1126
Completion % - 69.3%
Passing Yards - 9086
Pass TDs - 69
INTs - 26
YPA - 8.1

I think where Burrow really distinguishes himself above Herbert is his postseason success.

Fair enough. The stats aren't miles apart, but I'd still take Burrow's stats. A full yard of YPA is a pretty huge difference. Also 2% more completions and 6 more TD's on 245 fewer attempts.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-06-2023, 04:07 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Considering that he joined the boards in 2021 when we were 3-2 and not considered a threat to the Chiefs yet, and we were almost 3 months away from starting this rivalry, I doubt that's the case.


We don't ban people for not liking what they say. "Troll" is a word that gets thrown around way too much these days, and our job is to make sure the person is an actual troll before swinging the hammer around. It's very conceivable that a person really wanted Justin Herbert in the draft, and that their stubborn pride won't allow them to admit they were wrong. 

That wouldn't = troll. So we'd need better evidence.


MJ was better than Kobe. Even setting championships and various other accomplishments aside, Jordan was a better athlete with bigger hands who put up better stats. Both base stats and advanced stats. That goes for Jordan vs LeBron as well.


Fair enough. The stats aren't miles apart, but I'd still take Burrow's stats. A full yard of YPA is a pretty huge difference. Also 2% more completions and 6 more TD's on 245 fewer attempts.

Great post Shake, agree with all your thoughts, even the part about Notbigzo being a troll, he isn't that. He is just very negative 
and when we are struggling he will post more often, just the way it goes. Just hope Burrow snaps out of it now, could very well 
happen as I have seen this happen in the past after someone calling for said player's head.

Burrow is better than Herbert even if this season Burrow has been down right terrible because of the calf strain. It was a new 
injury to Burrow, soft tissue and it also messed with his head. Rodgers who knows about these calf strains told it like it is about 
what Burrow is going through.

Also agree on MJ being better than both Kobe and Lebron. MJ was another level, if you were around back then you should really
see that. Nothing against these guys, especially Kobe who I really liked even if he was a Laker.

[NotBigzo]

(10-06-2023, 04:07 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Considering that he joined the boards in 2021 when we were 3-2 and not considered a threat to the Chiefs yet, and we were almost 3 months away from starting this rivalry, I doubt that's the case.


We don't ban people for not liking what they say. "Troll" is a word that gets thrown around way too much these days, and our job is to make sure the person is an actual troll before swinging the hammer around. It's very conceivable that a person really wanted Justin Herbert in the draft, and that their stubborn pride won't allow them to admit they were wrong. 

That wouldn't = troll. So we'd need better evidence.


MJ was better than Kobe. Even setting championships and various other accomplishments aside, Jordan was a better athlete with bigger hands who put up better stats. Both base stats and advanced stats. That goes for Jordan vs LeBron as well.


Fair enough. The stats aren't miles apart, but I'd still take Burrow's stats. A full yard of YPA is a pretty huge difference. Also 2% more completions and 6 more TD's on 245 fewer attempts.

Thank you sir.

I just want to add that I joined the board shortly after it was created. I just forgot my password to my old username after taking a hiatus from the board and made a new one. 

So the "trolling" accusations pretty much allege that i've been on a decade-long troll operation which is as stupid as it sounds.

Just say you don't like me and don't engage bros. It's really not that hard.

[*jason*]

(10-06-2023, 03:12 PM)NotBigzo Wrote: Why not? Herbert developed fine with Staley and that guy is a bigger ass than Taylor. He developed in LA, so there's no reason to think he wouldn't develop here.

The only way we don't get Chase and Sewell is if the Miami pick is later in the draft. IDC who's under center for Miami that year. The dysfunction between Flores and Ross would've held the Dolphins back regardless.

I remember when Flores was fid'na whoop Zac Taylor's ass... Good times.

[casear2727]

(10-06-2023, 04:07 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Considering that he joined the boards in 2021 when we were 3-2 and not considered a threat to the Chiefs yet, and we were almost 3 months away from starting this rivalry, I doubt that's the case.


We don't ban people for not liking what they say. "Troll" is a word that gets thrown around way too much these days, and our job is to make sure the person is an actual troll before swinging the hammer around. It's very conceivable that a person really wanted Justin Herbert in the draft, and that their stubborn pride won't allow them to admit they were wrong. 

That wouldn't = troll. So we'd need better evidence.


MJ was better than Kobe. Even setting championships and various other accomplishments aside, Jordan was a better athlete with bigger hands who put up better stats. Both base stats and advanced stats. That goes for Jordan vs LeBron as well.


Fair enough. The stats aren't miles apart, but I'd still take Burrow's stats. A full yard of YPA is a pretty huge difference. Also 2% more completions and 6 more TD's on 245 fewer attempts.

(10-06-2023, 04:17 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Great post Shake, agree with all your thoughts, even the part about Notbigzo being a troll, he isn't that. He is just very negative 
and when we are struggling he will post more often, just the way it goes. Just hope Burrow snaps out of it now, could very well 
happen as I have seen this happen in the past after someone calling for said player's head.

Burrow is better than Herbert even if this season Burrow has been down right terrible because of the calf strain. It was a new 
injury to Burrow, soft tissue and it also messed with his head. Rodgers who knows about these calf strains told it like it is about 
what Burrow is going through.

Also agree on MJ being better than both Kobe and Lebron. MJ was another level, if you were around back then you should really
see that. Nothing against these guys, especially Kobe who I really liked even if he was a Laker.

Like you both. Disagree with both, except the MJ part. Guy's a troll IMO.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-06-2023, 05:21 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Like you both.  Disagree with both, except the MJ part.  Guy's a troll IMO.

Cool Casear, like you as well, but I have seen worse. This guy is just over the top negative.

[NotBigzo]

I don’t like Caesar either but the difference is that I don’t go out of my way in every thread to tell the world how much I don’t like him.

[*bfine32*]

Now I'm inclined to agree with the OP:

[Joelist]

Herbert doesn't come in and change the entire attitude of the franchise towards a lot of things. Yes Zac was a start on that but Burrow has had a lot to do with it also. Burrow is a franchise changer - not sure you can say that about Herbert.