Empty sets and other gripes

[*bengalfan74*]

Ok, so the entire world, at this point, knows Joe Burrow has the mobility of a fire hydrant. He can probably put up a 6.25 forty right now, I can probably out run him. He's like the statue of Liberty in the pocket.

So why? In the name of several curse words are we running empty sets? When opposing D's see this they're watering at the mouth like a pack of lions seeing a wildebeest limping across the African plain.

Why in the hell do we for all intents and purposes abandon the run game after the 1st qtr? Why are we not running more pistol formation?

Why do our RB's not named Joe Mixon only have 4 carries thus far this season?

I've tried hard to not put a lot of blame on ZT and BC on our offensive issues because Burrow is limited of course. But I'm switching thinking a good bit.

Is the reason we don't run at all after first couple series because ZT and co. don't call it? Or is JB audibling out of runs? Is the reason we still run open sets (a good bit) because JB wants it/demands it?

The point I'm probably doing a bad job of making is perhaps it's time for ZT to grow a spine and tell JB this is how it's going to be. Protect Joe from Joe and maybe just maybe our chances of winning a game will go up as well.

[740Bengal]

Ah we are all gonna be up to our poop shoots in blood and guts in Iran soon enough. I don't know why I even care. -Rick Vice

[Joelist]

Yeah, if the plan is to play Burrow then they have to ditch the open formations and wide zones and such. We need a TE and a RB or a RB and 6th lineman all the time and need to line up power. Go 3 WR, RB, QB, 5 OL plus either sixth lineman or Sample. The only way to compensate for Burrow's lack of mobility is put more bodies in front of him. They can't even roll the pocket right now so bodies is the only approach.

[jj22]

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but they had all summer to adjust and didn't. This makes me believe they really didn't think the injury was as bad as it was. I mean it's easy to slam a Head Coach, but Zac had plenty of time to adjust the scheme for a limited Burrow and didn't. You'd think he would have if they understood how injured the calf was. Maybe the ire should be directed to the medical staff. Who has done well up until now.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-04-2023, 01:28 PM)jj22 Wrote: I know I'm beating a dead horse, but they had all summer to adjust and didn't. This makes me believe they really didn't think the injury was as bad as it was. I mean it's easy to slam a Head Coach, but Zac had plenty of time to adjust the scheme for a limited Burrow and didn't. You'd think he would have if they understood how injured the calf was. Maybe the ire should be directed to the medical staff. Who has done well up until now.

I kinda get what you're saying, however. After Burrow starting practicing again it wouldn't take a medical Dr. too quickly determine Joe was gimpy. It's hard for me to swallow they were like "yup, Joe is 100%. Perhaps he should run extra wind sprints to burn off some of that energy"?

[Housh]

I personally got the idea of going empty a lot when we first got Joe. He did it in college and he was amazing. The NFL is a different game. The ball has to be out quick. It just doesn’t work here unless you get elite line and WR play

[WeezyBengal]

When you have a back in the backfield and run QB zone, you can often account for the end man on the LOS with the threat of the QB run.

When the QB can't run, the offense has to block the end man or he flies down and makes the play. Which makes it a less efficient play in general and harder to succeed because you have 5 v 6 most of the time

[WeezyBengal]

(10-04-2023, 01:17 PM)Joelist Wrote: Yeah, if the plan is to play Burrow then they have to ditch the open formations and wide zones and such. We need a TE and a RB or a RB and 6th lineman all the time and need to line up power. Go 3 WR, RB, QB, 5 OL plus either sixth lineman or Sample. The only way to compensate for Burrow's lack of mobility is put more bodies in front of him. They can't even roll the pocket right now so bodies is the only approach.

They did max protect a lot last game and the Titans were still getting to him. 

[higgy100]

(10-04-2023, 01:17 PM)Joelist Wrote: Yeah, if the plan is to play Burrow then they have to ditch the open formations and wide zones and such. We need a TE and a RB or a RB and 6th lineman all the time and need to line up power. Go 3 WR, RB, QB, 5 OL plus either sixth lineman or Sample. The only way to compensate for Burrow's lack of mobility is put more bodies in front of him. They can't even roll the pocket right now so bodies is the only approach.

They totally went away from the 2 step drops and quick hitters to the WR's and let them do the rest. Everything seems to be a 5-7 step drop.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-04-2023, 12:56 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Ok, so the entire world, at this point, knows Joe Burrow has the mobility of a fire hydrant. He can probably put up a 6.25 forty right now, I can probably out run him. He's like the statue of Liberty in the pocket.

So why? In the name of several curse words are we running empty sets? When opposing D's see this they're watering at the mouth like a pack of lions seeing a wildebeest limping across the African plain.

Why in the hell do we for all intents and purposes abandon the run game after the 1st qtr? Why are we not running more pistol formation?

Why do our RB's not named Joe Mixon only have 4 carries thus far this season?

I've tried hard to not put a lot of blame on ZT and BC on our offensive issues because Burrow is limited of course. But I'm switching thinking a good bit.

Is the reason we don't run at all after first couple series because ZT and co. don't call it? Or is JB audibling out of runs? Is the reason we still run open sets (a good bit) because JB wants it/demands it?

The point I'm probably doing a bad job of making is perhaps it's time for ZT to grow a spine and tell JB this is how it's going to be. Protect Joe from Joe and maybe just maybe our chances of winning a game will go up as well.

Very valid to ask why Bengals aren't trying to run more given the passing game's limitations and/or ineffectiveness.
2nd to last in attempts but all RBs other than Chase Brown have a respectable YPC (3.8 for Williams and 4+ for Mixon and Evans).

I know the Bengals have trailed a lot so the thought is we gotta pass, but they could still run more if they wanted to, even if it means the clock draining down a little more.

[Essex Johnson]

(10-04-2023, 12:56 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Ok, so the entire world, at this point, knows Joe Burrow has the mobility of a fire hydrant. He can probably put up a 6.25 forty right now, I can probably out run him. He's like the statue of Liberty in the pocket.

So why? In the name of several curse words are we running empty sets? When opposing D's see this they're watering at the mouth like a pack of lions seeing a wildebeest limping across the African plain.

Why in the hell do we for all intents and purposes abandon the run game after the 1st qtr? Why are we not running more pistol formation?

Why do our RB's not named Joe Mixon only have 4 carries thus far this season?

I've tried hard to not put a lot of blame on ZT and BC on our offensive issues because Burrow is limited of course. But I'm switching thinking a good bit.

Is the reason we don't run at all after first couple series because ZT and co. don't call it? Or is JB audibling out of runs? Is the reason we still run open sets (a good bit) because JB wants it/demands it?

The point I'm probably doing a bad job of making is perhaps it's time for ZT to grow a spine and tell JB this is how it's going to be. Protect Joe from Joe and maybe just maybe our chances of winning a game will go up as well.

Besides Burrow stating he plays best with empty especially quick reads etc...  his lack of mobility and unable to go under center i assume has hindered putting backs into backup much.. since more in the box will take short passing away since you are not spreading them out... The 2nd quarter collapsed by Bengals defense last week pretty much put us in pass mode also.  This does not immune ZT and play calling but i think it puts a better perspective of why we do empty a high amount.

[Whatever]

(10-04-2023, 02:30 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: They did max protect a lot last game and the Titans were still getting to him. 

That's because all max protect does is invite the blitz and force your WR's to win on longer developing routes.  

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-04-2023, 05:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Very valid to ask why Bengals aren't trying to run more given the passing game's limitations and/or ineffectiveness.
2nd to last in attempts but all RBs other than Chase Brown have a respectable YPC (3.8 for Williams and 4+ for Mixon and Evans).

I know the Bengals have trailed a lot so the thought is we gotta pass, but they could still run more if they wanted to, even if it means the clock draining down a little more.

3.8 isn't a respectable YPC. Last year Joe Mixon was 32nd among qualified RBs at 3.9 YPC, 3.8 would have put him in the 35th-38th range.

Chris Evans is based off just 2 carries. One on 2nd and 10 and the other on 3rd and 15. Both down-and-distances where the defense is going to let you run for a couple yards.

Mixon's 4.2 ypc would have been 27nd among RBs last year. He's had some good runs here and there, but they're too spaced out with crap filled in.

The other half of your running while down a lot even if it means the clock drains is our run defense is terrible. That means you can't afford to drain massive amounts of time off the clock while down a lot because the other team can also eat up even more clock. 

The Titans game is a perfect example. In the 3rd quarter the Titans get the ball to start the 2nd half and they have a 24-3 lead. They then have a 10 minute, 22 second drive to make it 27-3. Over 2/3rds of the 3rd quarter was used on one drive to make it a 24 point game, you can't have a run-heavy approach to try to respond to that.


- - - - - -

Fact is the run game hasn't been good despite I believe being at or near the top in facing light boxes, and even if our run game WAS good, our run defense isn't good enough to come from behind multiple scores by running the ball.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-04-2023, 12:56 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Ok, so the entire world, at this point, knows Joe Burrow has the mobility of a fire hydrant. He can probably put up a 6.25 forty right now, I can probably out run him. He's like the statue of Liberty in the pocket.

So why? In the name of several curse words are we running empty sets? When opposing D's see this they're watering at the mouth like a pack of lions seeing a wildebeest limping across the African plain.

Why in the hell do we for all intents and purposes abandon the run game after the 1st qtr? Why are we not running more pistol formation?

Why do our RB's not named Joe Mixon only have 4 carries thus far this season?

I've tried hard to not put a lot of blame on ZT and BC on our offensive issues because Burrow is limited of course. But I'm switching thinking a good bit.

Is the reason we don't run at all after first couple series because ZT and co. don't call it? Or is JB audibling out of runs? Is the reason we still run open sets (a good bit) because JB wants it/demands it?

The point I'm probably doing a bad job of making is perhaps it's time for ZT to grow a spine and tell JB this is how it's going to be. Protect Joe from Joe and maybe just maybe our chances of winning a game will go up as well.

I thought they would of figured it out before the Titans game, but alas...

We are still having Burrow in empty sets and trying to have 5-7 step drops which is also ridiculous and we are abandoning the run 
far too early still. We better get it together against the Cardinals Sunday or it may already be too late and we threw the season away 
over an injury we could of prepared much better for.

Burrow is inaccurate because of the injury as well which means we should run it more and run more jumbo packages and such. Drew
Sample has also been a good blocker this year too, so why not use the players to their strengths? This also gets more snaps for a 
player like Jackson Carman who clearly needs them and lets Burrow take less hits while healing.

We shouldn't die on the hill of Joe Burrow being the dude he was when completely healthy. Die on a different hill if we are going to 
embarrass ourselves. We can at least run block and keep our Defense off the field more often. At least if we execute we can.

[reuben.ahmed]

(10-05-2023, 05:04 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 3.8 isn't a respectable YPC. Last year Joe Mixon was 32nd among qualified RBs at 3.9 YPC, 3.8 would have put him in the 35th-38th range.

Chris Evans is based off just 2 carries. One on 2nd and 10 and the other on 3rd and 15. Both down-and-distances where the defense is going to let you run for a couple yards.

Mixon's 4.2 ypc would have been 27nd among RBs last year. He's had some good runs here and there, but they're too spaced out with crap filled in.

The other half of your running while down a lot even if it means the clock drains is our run defense is terrible. That means you can't afford to drain massive amounts of time off the clock while down a lot because the other team can also eat up even more clock. 

The Titans game is a perfect example. In the 3rd quarter the Titans get the ball to start the 2nd half and they have a 24-3 lead. They then have a 10 minute, 22 second drive to make it 27-3. Over 2/3rds of the 3rd quarter was used on one drive to make it a 24 point game, you can't have a run-heavy approach to try to respond to that.


- - - - - -

Fact is the run game hasn't been good despite I believe being at or near the top in facing light boxes, and even if our run game WAS good, our run defense isn't good enough to come from behind multiple scores by running the ball.

hey now you can't criticize mixon in this forum without people defending him to death