Burrow or the system?

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Joe Burrow is NOT injury prone. He’s prone to getting hit hard in the pocket though. There’s another thread about Joe getting pancaked on almost every pass attempt and it’s worth a read through all the posts. This same thing happened to Andy Dalton to a smaller degree and Carson Palmer took his share of hits as well.

If Joe were truly injury prone he would be on the IR list far more often. In fact, he might be one of the toughest and most resilient players to ever play the game. Other than last night and on that ill-fated game against Washington where his knee snapped, Joe keeps getting up and running another play even after getting mercilessly mauled.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-17-2023, 08:38 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's the system.  In today's NFL you simply cannot drop back in shotgun 40-50 times per game, every game without having your OL establish control of the LOS via the rushing attack.  Opposing DLs know that it's pass, pass, pass and they treat it as such.  If they knew the Bengals could line up and get 3-5 every time they handed the ball off, they would have to respect the threat of the run.

As it is currently, the Bengals get some good yards on the ground because they run by surprise, when the defense is expecting a pass.  That needs to change.  The simply have to be able to execute straight ahead and even complex running plays, even when the other team knows that it's coming.  Until that commitment happens, Joe Burrow will continue to get battered and injured no matter who is playing OL.

You and me are saying the same thing.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-17-2023, 08:42 PM)Destro Wrote: Go Burrow isn't a good QB. He is a great QB, in my opinion. Put him on most teams and the team goes to the playoffs with him as a Top 5 passer. Put any but a few QBs on this team, the record is worse.

He's saddled with Zac.

When he got drafted here, a lot of people said the Bengals would ruin him.

We haven't even entered the part of the show where his contract kicks in and we have to go with more rookies.

[RegularGuy22]

(11-17-2023, 08:38 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's the system.  In today's NFL you simply cannot drop back in shotgun 40-50 times per game, every game without having your OL establish control of the LOS via the rushing attack.  Opposing DLs know that it's pass, pass, pass and they treat it as such.  If they knew the Bengals could line up and get 3-5 every time they handed the ball off, they would have to respect the threat of the run.

As it is currently, the Bengals get some good yards on the ground because they run by surprise, when the defense is expecting a pass.  That needs to change.  The simply have to be able to execute straight ahead and even complex running plays, even when the other team knows that it's coming.  Until that commitment happens, Joe Burrow will continue to get battered and injured no matter who is playing OL.

I think this sums up the current offensive play problems very well.

The opposing D pins their ears back and stampedes to Joe and usually always get there. They simply must develop a solid run game with at least 2 good backs.

[CincinnatiKid]

It’s 100% a Zac Taylor issue

[Whatever]

(11-17-2023, 08:55 PM)Synric Wrote: It would help if anyone other than Ja'Marr Chase could make a play with the ball in their hands. Ill be preaching YAC again this off-season lol.

It is a huge issue.  KC last year basically had JuJu and a bunch of crappy guys with home run speed but it works because if you get them the ball in space it's a potential big play every time.  We've got Boyd who can't separate, can't break tackles, can't make guys miss, can't finish big plays when the secondary loses track of him, can't catch the ball in pressure situations, etc., etc.

Hopefully, we will see more of Chuck Sizzle and Yoshi down the stretch.

[Whatever]

(11-17-2023, 08:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Chiefs are the anomaly, not the norm.  That which they get away with en route to winning titles has also come back to bite them in other seasons.  Zac Taylor is no Andy Reid, and remember it took Andy Reid a long time to get to that consistent Championship level.  

The Dolphins, Seahawks, and the Steelers are right down there with KC in the bottom of the league in rush attempts. In the modern NFL, coaches consider a lot of things like screens and RPO passes part of the run game, but it's not that way on the stat sheet.

Unfortunately, we're a bad screen team due to an unathletic OL and we only have one guy that can create yards in the short passing game, but we still keep trying to use those things as part of the run game even though they're ineffective.

[impactplaya]

It's funny how the rest of the AFC North offenses
Have no issue involving 2 or more running backs
In their offense but Zac just keeps on leaning on Mixon
Over and over. A QBs best friend is a healthy
Running game. This front office and Zac really did not
Do the offense any favors by not properly addressing
The RB2 spot. Williams has no burst or vision
And Chase Brown to this point is a waste of
A roster spot. And Chris Evans has failed to
Develop

[samhain]

(11-17-2023, 08:38 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's the system.  In today's NFL you simply cannot drop back in shotgun 40-50 times per game, every game without having your OL establish control of the LOS via the rushing attack.  Opposing DLs know that it's pass, pass, pass and they treat it as such.  If they knew the Bengals could line up and get 3-5 every time they handed the ball off, they would have to respect the threat of the run.

As it is currently, the Bengals get some good yards on the ground because they run by surprise, when the defense is expecting a pass.  That needs to change.  The simply have to be able to execute straight ahead and even complex running plays, even when the other team knows that it's coming.  Until that commitment happens, Joe Burrow will continue to get battered and injured no matter who is playing OL.

They are way too dependent on big plays.  They have the guys to do it, but that's not sustainable cap-wise.  

As long as Joe is here, this will never be a run-heavy offense.  That doesn't mean it shouldn't be run-capable.  Last year when they went on the run, Perine was money picking up tough yards.  They need that back.  It shouldn't bee expensive to get that caliber of player to run those kinds of plays.  

Volson needs replaced by a someone that can pull.  The running back depth needs a major upgrade.  The scheme needs to give defenses a reason to fear the run.  Run until they prove they can stop it.  

[Dr.Z]

(11-17-2023, 08:10 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You can't drop back and throw 75% of the time against the best pass rushes.

His 2 major injuries happened against top pass rushing teams.

Zac calls plays like it's Madden.

Good post. I’ve been saying this in my posts for the last 2 years , even during wins. Funny that you used the Madden analogy , as I have said the exact same thing when talking directly with my my football friends directly.

[RegularGuy22]

(11-18-2023, 12:24 PM)samhain Wrote: They are way too dependent on big plays.  They have the guys to do it, but that's not sustainable cap-wise.  

As long as Joe is here, this will never be a run-heavy offense.  That doesn't mean it shouldn't be run-capable.  Last year when they went on the run, Perine was money picking up tough yards.  They need that back.  It shouldn't bee expensive to get that caliber of player to run those kinds of plays.  

Volson needs replaced by a someone that can pull.  The running back depth needs a major upgrade.  The scheme needs to give defenses a reason to fear the run.  Run until they prove they can stop it.  

I pretty much agree. They don't have to be run 1st offense but badly need a run game that forces defenses to respect the run so JB can be the pass QB he is. But as it is we are pretty much still a 1 dimensional offense, pass only out of SG 70% of the time. Other defenses see it, know it and have adjusted to us and are making JB pay for it.

[kalibengal]

(11-17-2023, 08:15 PM)Millhouse Wrote: The first season was 100% the system by having that horrific line. They have been terrible in evaluating college olinemen. I know there will always be flops from college, but they have to be historically bad in picking them since Zeitler. (Was Zeitler the last good one they drafted or am I forgetting someone?)

Definitely, I have been saying this for while now. They don't evaluate and develop talent in the trenches (on both DL and OL) well. They need to poach scouts from Philly or Cleveland.  Right now we are dealing with Zack Carter a 3rd rounder on DL that is a non factor, Ossai is non existent now and on OL, its all Free Agents except for Volson who is not good and should not be starting in the NFL from what  have seen.  

[Interceptor]

(11-17-2023, 08:21 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I'm just not sure Taylor is capable of this. With Burrows calf we still can't adjust even for a limited time. The we go away from the run when Mixon is successful or refuse to use any other RBs to be able to run more.

Old-school Marv Lewis style of play calling.

[tms]

(11-17-2023, 09:12 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Joe Burrow is NOT injury prone.  He’s prone to getting hit hard in the pocket though. 

But for practical purposes it's the same, tho, right? He's wired like an iron man and he'll play through anything. But he also gets nicked up a lot, to the point that it's fair to speculate on whether his toughness ironically leads to more injuries. Steve Smith, Steve McNair (RIP), Steve Young- any Steve, really- Lott, Polamalu, Bo... and countless others. All tough as nails. All found it hard to stay on the field.

It's not easy to say whether it's a fragile body, "overtoughness" or simply bad luck. Probably some combo. But I started to wonder about him last year with the appendix. I had it back in the day so I thought I could relate. Then I heard that his burst. I was like, "How long did you wait before telling someone, bro?!" They would never disclose the true story through the media so there's no way to know the details. For that matter, there's no way to know whether his actually burst or they were just looking for an excuse to be extra vigilant with his recovery and avoid playing pointless preseason football. I don't know. I could only judge them on what they were saying and it was kinda weird. This guy has world class medical facilities at his disposal 24/7/365 (I certainly didn't) and yet he still suffered the worst case scenario. Questions naturally abound.

Anyway, it's a horrible topic. Who knows if there's a common thread between his injuries or whether I'm just drawing a link for peace of mind. I do know he'll be back as soon as he possibly can and he's 1000000x times tougher than I ever was or will be. And I still wouldn't trade him for anyone in the league because he's Joe freaking Burrow and I love him.     

[J24]

You take the great player over the system everytime and if He's a QB you take hime twice on Sunday!

[NUGDUKWE]

(11-18-2023, 12:34 PM)RegularGuy22 Wrote: I pretty much agree. They don't have to be run 1st offense but badly need a run game that forces defenses to respect the run so JB can be the pass QB he is. But as it is we are pretty much still a 1 dimensional offense, pass only out of SG 70% of the time. Other defenses see it, know it and have adjusted to us and are making JB pay for it.

This post reminded me what they kept repeating Thursday night. That the Bengals were last in the league in rush yards per game with 74. Then Herbstreit was shocked how well Mixon was running like it was an anomaly. But it wasn't he has had several games recently were he was running well we just go away from the run and refuse to run anyone else. I mean it's not that we can't run we just refuse to.