Blame the run game

[NUGDUKWE]

(11-27-2023, 02:11 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: No team actually averages their ypc every run. You have to average 4.3 and above on the season

Yes I get that. But if you have 3 runs and 1 goes for 2yds 1 goes for 4yd and 1 goes for 6yds your still not leaving the field. Or at worst your getting into 3rd and short more than not. All this and we don't make the run game a priority. If we did I assume Mixon would do better and we'd be getting other RBs actually involved in the game.

[NUGDUKWE]

(11-27-2023, 02:14 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: As already pointed out, "improving" to 4.0 ypc only gets the team to 10th worst in the league.  Still far, very far from "good".

4 to 4.3 is very far? You pointed out that was top 15.

[Frank Booth]

(11-27-2023, 02:22 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: 4 to 4.3 is very far? You pointed out that was top 15.

it absolutely makes a big difference

[SunsetBengal]

(11-27-2023, 02:22 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: 4 to 4.3 is very far? You pointed out that was top 15.

Ummm, all of this began when you claimed that 4 ypc is "good"

I responded back with 4 ypc is only good enough for 10th WORST in the league.

I simply went on to reveal that the Bengals average 3.8 ypc, which is horrible, and that the top 15 rushing teams are all averaging 4.3 ypc or better.

So from where the Bengals ARE (3.8 ypc) to getting to good (4.3 ypc) might as well be a million miles apart, as evidently the rushing attack is just simply a novelty in the Zac Taylor offense.  I come to that conclusion based upon his lack of effort and determination to have his team run the ball with any consistency.

[XenoMorph]

(11-26-2023, 07:07 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I don’t understand the people who blame Zac for not running the ball more.

The run game is HORRENDOUS. You can’t keep attempting to run the ball when you’re running for TWO (2) yards a pop

The run game is terrible. Running it more isn’t going to help. They have to re-design the entire run game

run game looks horrendous cause backup QB so they crowd the line to attack the run and make browning beat them with his arm (not likely)


But run games never work if you dont stick with them.   

[Frank Booth]

(11-27-2023, 02:30 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: run game looks horrendous cause backup QB so they crowd the line to attack the run and make browning beat them with his arm (not likely)


But run games never work if you dont stick with them.   

the run game has been bad every year Burrow has been here

and they were top 5 in attempts in 2021

still finished 24th out of 32 in yards per carry

inefficient is the word

[NUGDUKWE]

(11-27-2023, 02:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Ummm, all of this began when you claimed that 4 ypc is "good"

I responded back with 4 ypc is only good enough for 10th WORST in the league.

I simply went on to reveal that the Bengals average 3.8 ypc, which is horrible, and that the top 15 rushing teams are all averaging 4.3 ypc or better.

So from where the Bengals ARE (3.8 ypc) to getting to good (4.3 ypc) might as well be a million miles apart, as evidently the rushing attack is just simply a novelty in the Zac Taylor offense.  I come to that conclusion based upon his lack of effort and determination to have his team run the ball with any consistency.

Okay maybe we are not necessarily disagreeing. I believe we have the personnel to achieve better run production was all I was really saying. I do think we need to get more dynamic at the RB position going forward. I think most of our struggles are from our coaching philosophy. Having said that I'm not sure how much a more dynamic running back would be affected by said philosophy. I think that's where we need the most change.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-27-2023, 02:33 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Okay maybe we are not necessarily disagreeing. I believe we have the personnel to achieve better run production was all I was really saying. I do think we need to get more dynamic at the RB position going forward. I think most of our struggles are from our coaching philosophy. Having said that I'm not sure how much a more dynamic running back would be affected by said philosophy. I think that's where we need the most change.

I do agree that there is nothing wrong with the bodies on the field, nearly as much as the scheme and play calling are not allowing them to develop any sort of rhythm running the ball.

Look at it like this, last year when Jackson was out from the Ravens, they were still a very strong team.  They were on the very edge of sending the Bengals home in the Wildcard round, if it weren't for a great individual effort on the part of Sam Hubbard.  

Why were the Ravens still a good team without their franchise QB?  Because their HC believes in the fundamental value of building a good football team from the inside out.  They select the best, most hard nosed blockers and tacklers that they can find, provide them with excellent coaching to fully develop the fine points of their game, and implement a play scheme that wears other teams down and essentially 'beats them into submission'.

The Bengals rarely even go into "physical mode", where they just line up and implement their will on the other team.  We've seen flashes of in the SF game, the Buffalo game, etc.  But when they go against their own division rivals, he pisses down his leg and puts them back into shotgun repeatedly.  The team simply must be able to go toe to toe with divisional opponents, as well as be able to move the ball on the ground in order to win championships.

[Joelist]

(11-27-2023, 02:45 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I do agree that there is nothing wrong with the bodies on the field, nearly as much as the scheme and play calling are not allowing them to develop any sort of rhythm running the ball.

Look at it like this, last year when Jackson was out from the Ravens, they were still a very strong team.  They were on the very edge of sending the Bengals home in the Wildcard round, if it weren't for a great individual effort on the part of Sam Hubbard.  

Why were the Ravens still a good team without their franchise QB?  Because their HC believes in the fundamental value of building a good football team from the inside out.  They select the best, most hard nosed blockers and tacklers that they can find, provide them with excellent coaching to fully develop the fine points of their game, and implement a play scheme that wears other teams down and essentially 'beats them into submission'.

The Bengals rarely even go into "physical mode", where they just line up and implement their will on the other team.  We've seen flashes of in the SF game, the Buffalo game, etc.  But when they go against their own division rivals, he pisses down his leg and puts them back into shotgun repeatedly.  The team simply must be able to go toe to toe with divisional opponents, as well as be able to move the ball on the ground in order to win championships.

This is partly what I was speaking about when I said the offense has to be redesigned to fit the strong suits of the players. We have a power line but we keep using concepts that are not best for power personnel (wide zones, lots of shotgun, naked backfields, no FB, etc.). Get under Center, run power (and even drive block sometimes) and prefer left to right and inside the tackle to the edge. Sample especially once he came back from the injury looking (and playing) rather more into strength and power can play FB. Play power ram ball and pass in playaction which will also help the receivers get a bit of separation (and stop the defense from teeing off). 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-27-2023, 02:31 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: the run game has been bad every year Burrow has been here

and they were top 5 in attempts in 2021

still finished 24th out of 32 in yards per carry

inefficient is the word

Bingo.

[*Synric*]

(11-27-2023, 02:51 PM)Joelist Wrote: This is partly what I was speaking about when I said the offense has to be redesigned to fit the strong suits of the players. We have a power line but we keep using concepts that are not best for power personnel (wide zones, lots of shotgun, naked backfields, no FB, etc.). Get under Center, run power (and even drive block sometimes) and prefer left to right and inside the tackle to the edge. Sample especially once he came back from the injury looking (and playing) rather more into strength and power can play FB. Play power ram ball and pass in playaction which will also help the receivers get a bit of separation (and stop the defense from teeing off). 

Did you know only two offenses in the NFL use a FB with any regularity, the Dolphins with Alec Ingold & the 49ers with Kyle Juszczyk, both teams are wide zone stretch teams.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-27-2023, 01:39 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Wr coming out of college have the most upside anymore and will be a good amount of quality in 2nd round , I think be best to trade Tee, we will need some extra picks to rebuild on boths sides of the ball, save some $$ on Tee sign a gap fill free agent for a year to replace Boyd and use the extra picks for a 2nd round WR .

You should know better than this. That’s not going to happen (even if it probably should).

[THE PISTONS]

(11-27-2023, 02:45 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I do agree that there is nothing wrong with the bodies on the field, nearly as much as the scheme and play calling are not allowing them to develop any sort of rhythm running the ball.

Look at it like this, last year when Jackson was out from the Ravens, they were still a very strong team.  They were on the very edge of sending the Bengals home in the Wildcard round, if it weren't for a great individual effort on the part of Sam Hubbard.  

Why were the Ravens still a good team without their franchise QB?  Because their HC believes in the fundamental value of building a good football team from the inside out.  They select the best, most hard nosed blockers and tacklers that they can find, provide them with excellent coaching to fully develop the fine points of their game, and implement a play scheme that wears other teams down and essentially 'beats them into submission'.

The Bengals rarely even go into "physical mode", where they just line up and implement their will on the other team.  We've seen flashes of in the SF game, the Buffalo game, etc.  But when they go against their own division rivals, he pisses down his leg and puts them back into shotgun repeatedly.  The team simply must be able to go toe to toe with divisional opponents, as well as be able to move the ball on the ground in order to win championships.

I'm a broken record, but Evan Mathis sucked here. He went to the Eagles and was the best Guard in the league for a while.

I read an interview on reddit on him and he said that the Bengals played a passive scheme where the Eagles played an aggressive attack scheme. He said for a caveman such as him that worked well.

In Jim Turners last year here, we couldn't run. Then the other coaches changed the blocking scheme too and we could suddenly run better.

I have no doubt that it's mainly scheme.

[Bengalstripes9]

I agree.

We need to manufacture more ways to win games.

Our current winning formula is to pass the ball and create turnovers on defense. That is how we win games.

The Ravens win games with defense, with their running game, and with their passing game. They are able to win a lot of different types of games. The Bengals coaches need to learn from them.

We need to invest more in our defense and running game. If we can push these two areas close to elite, we will be a much more balanced team, capable of winning a lot of different ways, and capable of blowing out opponents. The best offenses in the NFL are balanced on offense and keep the defense guessing. Our offense is very predictable that we are going to pass the ball most of the time and it makes it harder on the players to create space.

Football is often won in the trenches. We can continue to draft wide receivers and skill players high in the draft that we have no ability to re-sign because of Burrow and Chase, or we can use these picks on elite players that can make us a more complete team. We tried going WR heavy on offense and we were successful, but with all that talent Burrow didn't even sniff an MVP. The team would be much better if we had an elite oline and running game. It would be easier to create openings for our receivers if the defense was afraid of our rushing attack.

I'd like to see us add an elite corner and/or dlineman in the draft and continue to develop the oline.

Zac is beating a dead horse with this passing attack right now with a QB that is on the edge of whether he is capable of even being a backup QB in the NFL. Develop the running game and defense and we'll win more games down the stretch.

The team needs more balance and it's what holds our offene back from being elite with Burrow. The play calling and design is not good enough. If you look back to 2015, that offense was elite because of the balanced approach. Dalton could have been in the MVP conversation if not for his injury. With the talent we had the past couple years the offense under-performed. Burrow would have won an MVP with better coaching and a more balanced game plan. This 75% pass split is harder on the players because the defense knows what to expect. There is less space for the players to find openings down the field. There is more pressure on the oline because the dline knows whats coming and can focus on attacking. There is more pressure on the QB and a higher likelihood that he will get injured. It's just dumb football and maneagement needs to learn the lesson soon.

[Whatever]

(11-27-2023, 09:07 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Some of us were asking for this, even before Burrow went down with the injury.  This cult like adherence to the shotgun, 11 personnel formation is really making the team so one dimensional to defend.  If it wasn't exactly blowing teams away with Joe Burrow leading the charge, what in the hell would make Zac Taylor believe that it was the right situation to throw Jake Browning into?

Many around here want to look at the individual failure of players and the OL as a unit, and say that they need to be replace with better players.  Well, they did that.  Those players aren't even able to play up to levels that they had established with their previous teams.  It's so much less about the personnel on the field, than it is so much more about the scheme, play calling and coaching failing to change and adapt to ever evolving defenses.

There's nothing really to talk about currently when it comes to different personnel packages.  Our TE group as a whole is bad and our RB group is bad(particularly the backups).  There's a reason for that.  We've spent one Day 1/2 pick on the TE room and none on the RB room in the 5 drafts since Zac arrived.

I'd be fine running more 12 and 21 base...if we had the talent at TE and RB to do it.  We don't, because the vast majority of our draft capital and free agent dollars have gone into defense and the OL.  It's a perfectly viable discussion for next year IF the people proposing this shift are willing to advocate spending the free agent dollars and draft capital to make it viable.  If it's going to be another off-season of "draft trenches", "fix the OL", and "you can always find a quality RB in round 6", then it's a non-starter.

[*Synric*]

Even when it's blocked up the RB still has to make a guy miss but at least he got his 4 yards...

I really like when they run power to the left and pull Cappa. I think that plays to their strengths with Volson and Brown blocking down and being big and physical. Cappa usually lands his target. pic.twitter.com/LdvYh3k1Y9

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) November 27, 2023

[*ochocincos*]

(11-27-2023, 01:00 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Mixon being faster than Perine shouldn’t matter. That’s the point. We know who’s better. It’s Perine. Perine did a fantastic job as the starter when Mixon was injured last year. Mixon outside of Carolina was just plain old trash

Perine was better (or at least more consistent) than Mixon, at least based on the more limited sample size.
Perine averaged 4.4 YPC on 213 carries while in CIN.

With that said, Perine definitely is not a true lead-back kinda guy. He's a role player.
He's not going to be someone who is going to give you a lot of big plays.

FWIW, I wanted to 1) retain Perine for his role, 2) cut Mixon to save cap, and 3) sign a vet RB like David Montgomery to be in a RBBC with Perine and a draft pick.
Montgomery, for those that don't know, is a Cincinnati guy who played at Mt. Healthy.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-26-2023, 06:23 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Backup QB (barely any experience) - check
Late November game with iffy weather - check
Going against below average Pitt rush defense - check
.
.
.
.
Rush it for 8 times (for 16 yards) - check check check.

I put this loss on Taylor and company. Browning is what he is right now. Defense was out there 37 minutes to the offense's 23 minutes, and did enough for a win. But to utilize the run game like they did is about as bad as I have seen. At this point, I am pretty much in the camp that the entire offensive coaching staff needs a big shakeup.

Definitely need a new OL coach and new Play Caller with a re-designed Offense that can greatly improve the run game.

Averaging 2 yards per carry sucks and if it isn't working, I cannot really blame the coaches from going away from it, but there is a 
reason the running game isn't working. All our OL, at least the vets were good run blockers before they came here. This is on the 
OL coach in Pollack and the entire Offensive gameplan.

[Frank Booth]

(11-27-2023, 03:27 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Perine was better (or at least more consistent) than Mixon, at least based on the more limited sample size.
Perine averaged 4.4 YPC on 213 carries while in CIN.

With that said, Perine definitely is not a true lead-back kinda guy. He's a role player.
He's not going to be someone who is going to give you a lot of big plays.

FWIW, I wanted to 1) retain Perine for his role, 2) cut Mixon to save cap, and 3) sign a vet RB like David Montgomery to be in a RBBC with Perine and a draft pick.
Montgomery, for those that don't know, is a Cincinnati guy who played at Mt. Healthy.

he consistently gets more positive yards than Mixon + he had a knack for big plays as a receiver

Perine is better

[*ochocincos*]

(11-27-2023, 03:31 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: he consistently gets more positive yards than Mixon + he had a knack for big plays as a receiver

Perine is better

As I said, I wanted Perine over Mixon, so I'm with you there.
Would I want Perine being a true RB1 every week though? No.
He's not a true RB1 in my eyes, just a filler/stopgap/RBBC kinda guy.