The safeties

[WeezyBengal]

(11-27-2023, 06:19 PM)Housh Wrote: Could’ve done whatever moves they had to do to make it work.


They just didn’t think he mattered that much


They were obviously wrong

Lou told you it mattered. He had a quote last season "I dont want to even think about life without Vonn or Jessie". 

The front office didnt listen. They really did have an awful off-season. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-27-2023, 06:47 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Not worried about the safties. More so worried about the coverage from our linebacks recently and the DL (lack of pressure and inability to stop the run).

Same. It’s crazy that a defense with DJ Reader and Sam Hubbard can’t stop the run. The LB’s have been terrible.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-27-2023, 06:49 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Lou told you it mattered. He had a quote last season "I dont want to even think about life without Vonn or Jessie". 

The front office didnt listen. They really did have an awful off-season. 

OB was a nice pickup (especially at that price). His addition alone stops it from being “awful” imo.

[jj22]

The question is what changed from last two season when they could stop the run (or at least were much better at it outside of Cleveland games).... The only real change in the D was the safeties. Was Bell that important to the run game? Bates surely wasn't.

[J24]

(11-27-2023, 06:53 PM)jj22 Wrote: The question is what changed from last two season when they could stop the run (or at least were much better at it outside of Cleveland games).... The only real change in the D was the safeties. Was Bell that important to the run game? Bates surely wasn't.

Bates was 8th amongst safties in run defense last season and he is third in  run defense this season according to pff.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-27-2023, 07:17 PM)J24 Wrote: Bates was 8th amongst safties in run defense last season and he is third in  run defense this season according to pff.

I would think they’re missing Bell even more against the run. With as much as they used to bring him down into the box.

[Essex Johnson]

(11-27-2023, 06:49 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Lou told you it mattered. He had a quote last season "I dont want to even think about life without Vonn or Jessie". 

The front office didnt listen. They really did have an awful off-season. 

Bates was too expensive with other bigger contracts coming up and Hill was drafted as his replacement, he is not playing bad and really this year is his 1st real action at safety,, Bates was not an all pro as a rookie....

I do think Bell was the one that got away... but Battle is starting to look like a real winner as 3rd round pick

[*jason*]

(11-27-2023, 06:50 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Same. It’s crazy that a defense with DJ Reader and Sam Hubbard can’t stop the run. The LB’s have been terrible.

DJ is a year older, Hubbard has been banged up, and Pratt looks to punch the ball out instead of tackling sometimes... The offense has been anemic most of the season. I'd eager that teams have more rushing attempts against us at this point than they have the past two seasons.

[*michaelsean*]

(11-27-2023, 06:08 PM)Housh Wrote: No one can be coached up to be Bates

Bates was a damn near genius back there.
Wanted to try to sign Tee.
He was able to cover so much ground it was insane.



Letting him walk when we had the money is just insane.


It may have lost the season for us honestly.

He’s getting like $16 million. You can’t just have the money this year. You have to have the space in the last year as well. And I think they wanted to try and sign Tee.

[casear2727]

(11-27-2023, 06:08 PM)Housh Wrote: No one can be coached up to be Bates

Bates was a damn near genius back there.

He was able to cover so much ground it was insane.



Letting him walk when we had the money is just insane.


It may have lost the season for us honestly.

I couldnt disagree more.  $16M per year for the next four years would be incredibly onerous.  We have Dax.

Bates was not a great tackler.  How do you forget the season Bates practically laid down?  He had one interception and 3 pass breakups that season. 

Bates gave up both TDs in the AFCCG loss to end the season.

It would have been much more insane to have kept him, no team with a highly paid QB would pay a safety that stupid salary.  We will have a highly paid QB and WR next season.  

To even suggest Bates lost us the season is nonsensical.  The defense has been bad at all 3 levels.

[coachmcneil71]

(11-27-2023, 05:50 PM)Wyche Wrote: I agree....but the OP has a point too. They're young, so some recognition isn't there just yet. I believe it will get there. That's what he's pointing out, or that's how I took it. Dax's speed and athleticism allowed him to get out there to defend the pass, had he recognized earlier, that same speed and athleticism may have allowed him to jump the route and potentially get a pick 6. I personally think these two will wind up better than the duo they're replacing. It's great to get them reps as a tandem going forward this year.

(11-27-2023, 05:55 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Dax had some bad moments yesterday (particularly on the TD) but I don’t buy for 2 seconds that the safeties are one of the main problems with this defense right now. They have no pass rush outside of Trey, and Pratt and Wilson have both been sucking lately.

Losing both veteran S at the same time has definitely affected the defense. Bates had a 94 yard TD int yesterday. I have personally watched him effect at least 3 games for the ATL so far this season.  It has without question affected the D. The numbers speak for themselves. That said, it hasn't been the death nail.  As you mentioned, the pass rush has sucked and the run D is worst in the league.  

The kids on the back-end are learning and at least three of them are getting better quickly. That's a positive for sure. 

[casear2727]

(11-27-2023, 11:38 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Losing both veteran S at the same time has definitely affected the defense. Bates had a 94 yard TD int yesterday. I have personally watched him effect at least 3 games for the ATL so far this season.  It has without question affected the D. The numbers speak for themselves. That said, it hasn't been the death nail.  As you mentioned, the pass rush has sucked and the run D is worst in the league.  

The kids are learning and at least one of them is getting better quickly. That's a positive for sure. 

Bates had ONE Pick 6 in 5 years for us, back in 2018.

I watched Bates lay down for a full season because he was pouting over his contract.

I do agree with you that the boys had a large learning curve, Scott being ass didnt help, but they are, and will, continue to improve. 

[coachmcneil71]

(11-27-2023, 11:42 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Bates had ONE Pick 6 in 5 years for us, back in 2018.

I watched Bates lay down for a full season because he was pouting over his contract.

I do agree with you that the boys had a large learning and curve, Scott being ass didnt help, but they are, and will, continue to improve. 

CTB, Turner, and Battle are putting in work. Hill should still pan out as well. Some are just taking a few more lumps than others. Solid young defensive backfield thus far. Young, being the key element. 

[Tlawsonmariat82]

We keep saying these players will get better with more reps but at this point that's just the fan in us hoping that they do..The truth is some of these players will never have instincts and instincts can't be coached you either have them or you don't all the 40 times in the world won't change that..

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

Bates had one good regular season and one good post-season as a Bengal. He flat out sucked in coverage the last two years until waking up the last month of last season. He might be the Bengals all-time leader in missed tackles with a whopping 57 in 5 years and has 7 so far this year. In comparison, Vonn Bell had 21 in his three years here.

Didn't mind him signing with Atlanta as they drafted his replacement last year. Losing Bell hurt far more than losing Bates.

[casear2727]

(11-28-2023, 01:03 AM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: We keep saying these players will get better with more reps but at this point that's just the fan in us hoping that they do..The truth is some of these players will never have instincts and instincts can't be coached you either have them or you don't all the 40 times in the world won't change that..

The rookie dbacks have all showed good instincts. 

Jones and Chase are not allowed to have any snaps so we dont know about them, and Yoshi just runs deep wide open knowing the ball will never come his way unless a scramble drill ensues.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-27-2023, 05:50 PM)Wyche Wrote: I agree....but the OP has a point too. They're young, so some recognition isn't there just yet. I believe it will get there. That's what he's pointing out, or that's how I took it. Dax's speed and athleticism allowed him to get out there to defend the pass, had he recognized earlier, that same speed and athleticism may have allowed him to jump the route and potentially get a pick 6. I personally think these two will wind up better than the duo they're replacing. It's great to get them reps as a tandem going forward this year.

Right, we all knew that there was going to be a bit of a drop off while they young players were developing.  It's easy to spotlight their youthful shortcomings during an anticlimactic season like this one, however if the offense were putting up 34 pts/game, as many expected it to, the perspective of the young and developing secondary would be much different.

[Tlawsonmariat82]

(11-28-2023, 10:10 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Right, we all knew that there was going to be a bit of a drop off while they young players were developing.  It's easy to spotlight their youthful shortcomings during an anticlimactic season like this one, however if the offense were putting up 34 pts/game, as many expected it to, the perspective of the young and developing secondary would be much different.

This offense putting up 34 ppg like we expected it to???who expected it to??I sure didn't fact of the matter is that this defense was so the reason for all of the playoffs success not this overhyped mediocre offense..

[SunsetBengal]

(11-28-2023, 10:27 AM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: This offense putting up 34 ppg like we expected it to???who expected it to??I sure didn't fact of the matter is that this defense was so the reason for all of the playoffs success not this overhyped mediocre offense..

Plenty around this board, and the casual fan community at large.

Some of us that threw an absolute fit when the allowed Bates and Bell to leave via free agency were told to relax and stop wearing our hearts on our sleeves, etc. Oh, who could forget things like "Irv Smith Jr. will be the dynamic, pass catching TE that this offense has been waiting for", there were even some on here predicting Joe Burrow to have 50+ TD passes this season.  If I get bored enough, I (or even yourself) could look up some of those offseason prediction threads, they're good comedy.

[J24]

Bates is having an All Pro season this year and is the best deep Safety in the game. So yes for a team that plays around 60% of their snaps in single High they miss Bates.