Rubber meets the Road - POLL (Bill Belichick or Zac)

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-30-2023, 03:08 PM)Nately120 Wrote: This reminds me of when Peyton Manning was going to be a FA and we were saying we'd rather stick with Dalton than risk shaking things up.  If we didn't like the idea of replacing Dalton with a QB who had an MVP season left in him, I don't see why we'd shake things up with ZT and Bill Bellyache.

I get that Bill's success is behind him, but I also have a hard time imagining that Burrow being as addicted to winning as he is wouldn't be able to see eye-to-eye with a dude with 8 SB rings.  Well, it ain't gonna happen, so let's just assume it would be terrible.  The closest thing we'd see to this would be if he goes to the Chargers.

There were people saying they would rather stick with Dalton over Peyton Manning?

I certainly wasn't one of those people.

It is a what have you done lately league. Lately Zac has been better than Belichick in success. Bottom line for me.

Plus everything KillerGoose said.

(11-30-2023, 03:37 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Same...............



While I do disagree with some of Zac's decisions, let's not forget that he has taken us to two AFCC games and one Super Bowl, coming within a tackle being able to hold his block for a split second longer to let Burrow throw a touchdown pass to Chase to win it, so Zac hasn't been bad.

Zac did all of that with piss-poor excuses for offensive lines, so who's to say that another coach could be anywhere near as successful? Give Zac a decent o line (and fire Pollack) before we make any decisions like that.

I do realize that Burrow has been the biggest part of his success, but do you really want to risk Burrow not being as successful under a new coach?

Agree, simply isn't time to move on from Zac. We get a new OL coach that knows what he is doing and we get the running game
fixed and this team will be right back in the thick of it.

[Housh]

No

I don’t want that Smug duxkhead over here

[*Nately120*]

(12-01-2023, 04:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: There were people saying they would rather stick with Dalton over Peyton Manning?

I certainly wasn't one of those people.

It is a what have you done lately league. Lately Zac has been better than Belichick in success. Bottom line for me.

Bellichick made the playoffs with Mac Jones as his QB in 2021, let's see if ZT can get there with Jake Browning.  I'd say if you want to look at Bill and ZT on fairly equal footing, look at BB with Cam Newton and Mac Jones compared to ZT with Dalton and Browning.  That seems reasonably fair...Bill sure is bordering on a 2-win season right now, though.  Of course when ZT won 2 games it was ok because we got Burrow and we were rebuilding and all.

I get that it's a nice time to kick the Patriots and ol' Bill while they're down but the guy did lose Brady in week 1 and then win 11 games with the backup QB, and he's only been BAD once Mac Jones imploded. They've shown they can compete with passable talent, Brady wins it all and was the Hall to Bill's Oates, but still, I wouldn't discount that they managed to compete in situations that we have deemed hopeless.

I'm just saying, for ZT's sake if all it takes is two losing seasons to undo 6 SB wins he may want to retire as soon as Burrow hangs 'em up.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-01-2023, 04:44 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Bellichick made the playoffs with Mac Jones as his QB in 2021, let's see if ZT can get there with Jake Browning.  I'd say if you want to look at Bill and ZT on fairly equal footing, look at BB with Cam Newton and Mac Jones compared to ZT with Dalton and Browning.  That seems reasonably fair...Bill sure is bordering on a 2-win season right now, though.  Of course when ZT won 2 games it was ok because we got Burrow and we were rebuilding and all.

I get that it's a nice time to kick the Patriots and ol' Bill while they're down but the guy did lose Brady in week 1 and then win 11 games with the backup QB, and he's only been BAD once Mac Jones imploded.  They've shown they can compete with passable talent, Brady wins it all and was the Hall to Bill's Oates, but still, I wouldn't discount that they managed to compete in situations that we have deemed hopeless.

I'm just saying, for ZT's sake if all it takes is two losing seasons to undo 6 SB wins he may want to retire as soon as Burrow hangs 'em up.

As bad as Mac Jones has been this year, he wasn't terrible before this and he was a 1st round pick.

A little different than an UDFA like Jake Browning is. But I get your point, Burrow is Zac's salvation. If he didn't have Burrow or Lou
coaching up the Defense (and even he hasn't been good at it this year) Zac probably wouldn't have very many winning seasons.

I always have to go back to Zac being young and being able to learn from his mistakes. He has a lot to learn from this year, not 
preparing for a hurt Burrow with no running game was just bad coaching. We need a running game to succeed in the NFL, even 
now in this passing league.

[Destro]

(12-01-2023, 05:37 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: As bad as Mac Jones has been this year, he wasn't terrible before this and he was a 1st round pick.

I think Zach Wilson is better than Mac Jones.

Note: I am comparing to burning dumpsters.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-01-2023, 05:51 PM)Destro Wrote: I think Zach Wilson is better than Mac Jones.

Note: I am comparing to burning dumpsters.

This year yeah, both have been terrible and Mac probably has been worse.

[*jason*]

(12-01-2023, 04:44 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Bellichick made the playoffs with Mac Jones as his QB in 2021, let's see if ZT can get there with Jake Browning.  I'd say if you want to look at Bill and ZT on fairly equal footing, look at BB with Cam Newton and Mac Jones compared to ZT with Dalton and Browning.  That seems reasonably fair...Bill sure is bordering on a 2-win season right now, though.  Of course when ZT won 2 games it was ok because we got Burrow and we were rebuilding and all.

I get that it's a nice time to kick the Patriots and ol' Bill while they're down but the guy did lose Brady in week 1 and then win 11 games with the backup QB, and he's only been BAD once Mac Jones imploded. They've shown they can compete with passable talent, Brady wins it all and was the Hall to Bill's Oates, but still, I wouldn't discount that they managed to compete in situations that we have deemed hopeless.

I'm just saying, for ZT's sake if all it takes is two losing seasons to undo 6 SB wins he may want to retire as soon as Burrow hangs 'em up.

Not to mention that Brady wasn't yet Brady early on. Nobody thought they were watching the greatest winner of all time when they beat the Rams... The heavily favored Rams.

[*Nately120*]

(12-01-2023, 05:54 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This year yeah, both have been terrible and Mac probably has been worse.

So that's my main point here.  I'm not even saying fire ZT, I'm saying the fear that Bill Belichick is dead and buried and he'd wreck Burrow seems a bit much to me.  I see looking at the Patriots this year and saying Bill is "done" is like looking at Burrow the first few games of the season and saying he's done.  It's probably a situational thing and while BB and JB struggled mightily at times, they have resumes that make it safe to say that they likely didn't magically forget how to be elite at their jobs and recovery is quite possible.

If ZT quit football tomorrow to be a proctologist or some other way we can talk about him being gone which doesn't involve hypothetical tragedy, I could see us hiring Belichick and then Burrow having a press conference saying "I wish Zac all the best inspecting people's asses, and we had some great times, and I'm really excited to collaborate with these new coaches" and we'd all be like "Holy crap, we're winning the SB this year.

Regardless, much like this year if we went into 2024 with BB or ZT at HC and Burrow at QB I'll say the same thing I said about this season...no reason we shouldn't win it all.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-01-2023, 06:26 PM)Nately120 Wrote: So that's my main point here.  I'm not even saying fire ZT, I'm saying the fear that Bill Belichick is dead and buried and he'd wreck Burrow seems a bit much to me.  I see looking at the Patriots this year and saying Bill is "done" is like looking at Burrow the first few games of the season and saying he's done.  It's probably a situational thing and while BB and JB struggled mightily at times, they have resumes that make it safe to say that they likely didn't magically forget how to be elite at their jobs and recovery is quite possible.

If ZT quit football tomorrow to be a proctologist or some other way we can talk about him being gone which doesn't involve hypothetical tragedy, I could see us hiring Belichick and then Burrow having a press conference saying "I wish Zac all the best inspecting people's asses, and we had some great times, and I'm really excited to collaborate with these new coaches" and we'd all be like "Holy crap, we're winning the SB this year.

Regardless, much like this year if we went into 2024 with BB or ZT at HC and Burrow at QB I'll say the same thing I said about this season...no reason we shouldn't win it all.

Great post lol 

I get your point.

[depthchart]

(12-01-2023, 06:26 PM)Nately120 Wrote: So that's my main point here.  I'm not even saying fire ZT, I'm saying the fear that Bill Belichick is dead and buried and he'd wreck Burrow seems a bit much to me.  I see looking at the Patriots this year and saying Bill is "done" is like looking at Burrow the first few games of the season and saying he's done.  It's probably a situational thing and while BB and JB struggled mightily at times, they have resumes that make it safe to say that they likely didn't magically forget how to be elite at their jobs and recovery is quite possible.

If ZT quit football tomorrow to be a proctologist or some other way we can talk about him being gone which doesn't involve hypothetical tragedy, I could see us hiring Belichick and then Burrow having a press conference saying "I wish Zac all the best inspecting people's asses, and we had some great times, and I'm really excited to collaborate with these new coaches" and we'd all be like "Holy crap, we're winning the SB this year.

Regardless, much like this year if we went into 2024 with BB or ZT at HC and Burrow at QB I'll say the same thing I said about this season...no reason we shouldn't win it all.

Pete Rose was a Coach/Player simultaneously

Zac could be Head Coach/Team Proctologist   

[Bengalstripes9]

I’m shocked by the results of the poll. How do you not jump at the opportunity to bring in Belicheck?

I just watched Tom Brady’s interview where he talked about the current nfl product out there being mediocre. He mentioned mediocre coaching and schemes and I felt like he was talking about Zac’s offense. It is so off balance that the defense knows what to expect every play. We need a more balanced approach in offense that isn’t so predictable. We need to protect burrow and our players by imposing our will in the run game.

I would be ecstatic to get Belicheck in as our coach. Elite coaching has been what this team is missing.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-01-2023, 08:03 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: I’m shocked by the results of the poll. How do you not jump at the opportunity to bring in Belicheck?

I just watched Tom Brady’s interview where he talked about the current nfl product out there being mediocre. He mentioned mediocre coaching and schemes and I felt like he was talking about Zac’s offense. It is so off balance that the defense knows what to expect every play. We need a more balanced approach in offense that isn’t so predictable. We need to protect burrow and our players by imposing our will in the run game.

I would be ecstatic to get Belicheck in as our coach. Elite coaching has been what this team is missing.

Kind of depends if you think Belichick is still elite or if he is falling off due to age or if Zac can learn to be an elite coach.

Agree about the predictability of the Offense, this needs to change, been BS for most of the year apart from the 49ers and Bills games.

[Bengalstripes9]

(12-01-2023, 08:14 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Kind of depends if you think Belichick is still elite or if he is falling off due to age or if Zac can learn to be an elite coach.

Agree about the predictability of the Offense, this needs to change, been BS for most of the year apart from the 49ers and Bills games.

I don’t think Belicheck forgot how to coach. He lost all his good players and now his team has no stars on it at all.

If you look at the body of work is it 6 super bowls? Dominant in the regular season. Always the team to beat in the playoffs for almost 20 years. Balanced teams with great defense and special teams. A balanced offensive attack. They routinely blew out teams.

With all the talent Zac has, 90% of games with burrow have been close or somewhat close. Zac is simply not a dominant coach like Belicheck. Hes not as good at scheming game plans specific to the teams he’s playing on a weekly basis.

Zac could certainly develop into a better coach. He’s had success with burrow and drafted well. But I wouldn’t call him a dominant coach. He’s the coach and I don’t see that changing. I hope he doesn’t hold the team back from winning a Super Bowl with burrow. Yes, he broke the streak and we’ve had some playoff success. But his offenses have underperformed for the talent on the team.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-30-2023, 02:15 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: This is actually a tough question. Not because I think they are similar coaches, because they aren't. Belichick is obviously a superior coach with storied success and a HoF resume. That isn't up for debate. The thing that hangs me up is the impact it would have on the locker room. I think the biggest thing about Zac is he has these guys behind him 100%. The energy is great, players are happy and want to be here. Belichick is a much different type of coach and runs a very sterile environment. This is just what I have gathered over the past few years as ex-Pats players have been interviewed.

Would we have guys leave or request trades due to the firing of a coach they not only like, but believe in? If so, it can be argued that this team wouldn't be any more successful by the team Bill leaves. That's a lot of holes to fill. It would be a vastly different culture and I absolutely think it would receive a negative opinion by the players. Super Bowl appearance, conference champ appearances and a lost season due to injury ends up canning the guy? I just can't imagine it being received well.

To answer after I have typed this out, no, I don't think I would. This is something you could do in Madden but in real life I think it would have serious repercussions and backfire.

I think too much is made about players liking a coach. Players say whatever is good for their resume and ultimately, their money. This includes (with most players) always talking nice about your teammates or coaches, etc.

Uzomah was one of the biggest team players we've ever had and as soon as a team with a bigger bag came along, suddenly Zac and the boys didn't matter.

My point is that these guys will play for whoever. Marvin was always talked about like he was a player's coach, but nobody cared when he left.

All that said, this is a fantasy scenario that would never happen in a million years. Zac is locked in for several more years and Bill would want too much control. The best we can hope for is a new OL coach and Zac to finally revise his playbook for another go.

Hopefully he and Callahan can check their egos and do what needs done.

[Bengalitis]

Bill is one of those coaches that can utilize and stratigize around his talented players. Zac is more narrow minded, he does what he wants to do.

That's why Bill and Brady took 6 rings by sticking to what worked. Those short, quick, passes was all that was needed.

[reuben.ahmed]

The poll results are surprising not withstanding Bill's lack of success since Brady left. Zac seems to be a player's coach and Bill I have never gotten that sense. Are people coming to Cincy for either coach, don't know at this point, doubt it for Zac.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-02-2023, 02:04 AM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: I don’t think Belicheck forgot how to coach. He lost all his good players and now his team has no stars on it at all.

If you look at the body of work is it 6 super bowls? Dominant in the regular season. Always the team to beat in the playoffs for almost 20 years. Balanced teams with great defense and special teams. A balanced offensive attack. They routinely blew out teams.

With all the talent Zac has, 90% of games with burrow have been close or somewhat close. Zac is simply not a dominant coach like Belicheck. Hes not as good at scheming game plans specific to the teams he’s playing on a weekly basis.

Zac could certainly develop into a better coach. He’s had success with burrow and drafted well. But I wouldn’t call him a dominant coach. He’s the coach and I don’t see that changing. I hope he doesn’t hold the team back from winning a Super Bowl with burrow. Yes, he broke the streak and we’ve had some playoff success. But his offenses have underperformed for the talent on the team.

I don't disagree, I haven't watched many Patriots games this year to see how well coached they are. All I know is Billy B hasn't won
any SB's without Tom Brady. From what I have seen of Zac he isn't going to win any SB's without Joe Burrow. I guess I just prefer 
youth at this juncture and I think Lou Anarumo will turn around the Defense and I like the guy's we have besides our trench coaches.

I think both the OL and DL coach need to be replaced by upgrades. Games are won in the trenches and we are still lacking here.

Let's not forget that once again we are one of the least penalized teams in the NFL. That is good coaching.

[TheFan]

(11-30-2023, 02:48 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Absolutely not. While I might entertain the idea of MB telling Zac he needs to let the OC call the plays, I do not think there is a better head coach in the league when it comes to being a Head Coach.

This is where my thoughts lie as well. 

[Bengalstripes9]

(12-02-2023, 02:08 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I don't disagree, I haven't watched many Patriots games this year to see how well coached they are. All I know is Billy B hasn't won
any SB's without Tom Brady. From what I have seen of Zac he isn't going to win any SB's without Joe Burrow. I guess I just prefer 
youth at this juncture and I think Lou Anarumo will turn around the Defense and I like the guy's we have besides our trench coaches.

I think both the OL and DL coach need to be replaced by upgrades. Games are won in the trenches and we are still lacking here.

Let's not forget that once again we are one of the least penalized teams in the NFL. That is good coaching.

I agree that games are won in the trenches. Just look at Brady’s three Super Bowl losses. What was the common theme? He was facing a dominant dline and they were in his face all day.

The bengals need to improve their oline and dline. We lost the Super Bowl because we couldn’t block an elite dline. I was confident the eagles would win last year because of their dline, but there was some kind of issue with the turf that had an impact on that.

I have a lot of confidence in Lou. Losing your two starting safeties is hard on the defense, especially when they are elite players in their prime. Bates is having a hell of a year this year, btw. A common theme with a lot of Super Bowl winners and overall dominant defenses in years past is elite safety play. Patriots, Steelers, ravens, Seahawks are a few that come to mind. I like Dax and Battle, and think they can develop into elite players in time. Lou is a big part of that.

I just think Belicheck is a better coach than Zac. He was the perfect coach to pair with Brady. He knows how to attack other teams weaknesses and gameplan for opponents. To me Zac often runs the same stuff no matter who we play (and there are times where it feels like he’s banging his head against the wall trying the same stuff over and over). Yet, I thought we played our best games this year against the bills and 9ers and were well prepared for those games. But that is 2/11 games.

I get burrow was hurt this year, but anyone with a winning mentality knows what excuses are good for. Winners are constantly learning, adapting, refining, evaluating, etc. Belicheck is elite in this regard. If he were available he would be my top candidate to pair with burrow and let him bring in his choice for OC and Oline/dline coach. It won’t happen, but man would it be awesome.

[*Nately120*]

(12-01-2023, 08:03 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: I’m shocked by the results of the poll. How do you not jump at the opportunity to bring in Belicheck?

I just watched Tom Brady’s interview where he talked about the current nfl product out there being mediocre. He mentioned mediocre coaching and schemes and I felt like he was talking about Zac’s offense. It is so off balance that the defense knows what to expect every play. We need a more balanced approach in offense that isn’t so predictable. We need to protect burrow and our players by imposing our will in the run game.

I would be ecstatic to get Belicheck in as our coach. Elite coaching has been what this team is missing.

I'm not shocked by the results, a bird in the hand and all that...plus BB is never coming here even if we had a huge hole at HC going into 2024.  With that being said, it is interesting how people watched BB and Brady win 6 SBs and look at our team with a should-be HOF QB locked down and an ailing defense and think...well, hard to tell if brining that system here would wreck things.

If someone asked if BB and McDaniels should go coach in Carolina I'd say "Nah" but here?  Burrow is addicted to winning but keep that HC with 8 SB rings away, he's poison!  Meh, press X to doubt.