The "Fire Zach" stuff is WEIRD

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-01-2023, 09:26 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: Well he's the HC, that's up to him right? So he takes blame for not taking a greater role, or lesser role. IMO he deserves a lot of blame for how terrible the offense looks compared to how it probably should with the players on the team, even during the playoff runs. Like with Burrow and 3 top WRs you have no run game at all? Like you can't figure out how to have a run game with Mixon when teams are trying to defend your pass.

When LeBron took the trash cavs team to the finals mike brown (the cavs coach) won coach of the year, it was hilarious because it was obvious all lebron. I think a lot of credit is Burrow not Zac, are we thinking otherwise? I hope Jake Brown proves otherwise. The Browns paid a **** ton of money to their QB too and their team doesn't 100% collapse, it's funny ot think the Browns could still win the superbowl without their starting QB or starting RB and we think we might go winless the rest of the season lol. Yes it's hard to win without your best player, though.

Sean Mcvay won a superbowl and has an eidetic memory, Zac does not afaik.

That being said the Bengals are probably 7-3 and not 5-5 if Burrow was healthy and not as many people would be talking bout this even though the run game is glaringly absent.

Basketball and football are EXTREMELY different sports.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-02-2023, 02:38 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Watching the film.

There were run plays where one OL did the right block and one did not. Or where Mixon missed the hole in front of him.

Hard to tell with the lack of running plays, but there were a couple. 

Bottom line, you just don't give up on the running game after 8 carries even if it is going for 2 yards a clip.

There are times when RB's go for 0 YPC for 5 plays and break one for 30 yards, happens all the time.

You stick with it to be unpredictable and let the OL settle in and do what they do best. When Karras and Cappa came here they 
were good run blockers. All our OL are supposed to be good run blockers, but if they cannot settle in and always play in Shotgun 
it is poor coaching and not what OL like or are good at. Put the best pass protecting OL in Shotgun all the time and see them 
struggle, it will happen.

Our coaches just do not put our players in positions to succeed and that is my biggest critique of them. Lou isn't bad like this, 
but the tackling really needs to improve on Defense.


Damn rights, BTW it was Chris Evans who messed up on his assignments and Burrow got pissed off, not Trayveon. Need to see more
of all of our RB's unless Evans continue to cost us timeouts cause he doesn't know the play lol

I want to see Chase Brown on the field bad to know what we have in him. He was a great RB at Illinois. Always liked him. Like you said,
if they suck like Mixon does at times we will know that it is more on the OL and not as much on the RB's. If the backups look good, we 
might be better off than we think and only need to add a new OL coach and a couple OL, namely at RT and for depth or in case Volson
continues to blow.

Williams ****** up a couple times this year too.

[wanga]

He appears to be a good man manager and done awesome things, aa a Bengals fan, as HC but for a potential super powered offence watching us with the ball is too often laborious, stilted and ineffective. We seem to light up and look unstoppable sometimes and then fall back into bogged dow trundle.
I know it’s not an added and game situations exist but I dream of what an innovative offensive mind could do with all these weapons we have.

[NUGDUKWE]

(12-02-2023, 07:31 PM)Wyche Wrote: Well, one was a sixteen year vet as HC, and one was a rookie HC. Do you grade players that way, or give em a pass for rookie mistakes? 

Well I would say a rookie mistake but if the player does it for the 1st 7 games of the year he'd be pushing his luck. But what about the latter half of that post. Marvin lost his stud WR and QB while having a bad defense and it was unacceptable for him to only get 1 win after. Where Zac lost his QB and if he goes winless will anyone care? 

[NUGDUKWE]

(12-02-2023, 07:32 PM)Wyche Wrote: I've seen him moved by the QB at least a couple times. That time he couldn't hear, and it cost us a timeout. I would wager it's things like that that keep him on the bench.  If he can't get lined up, I have zero faith in him executing the play. 

Also funny how we look at this. We can't give all the credit to Burrow and Co. for our success. But we are gonna give all the negative credit to Evans? If a player is struggling to line up it seems fair to say could be a coaching problem. We certainly like to ignore the run game as much as possible on game days. I wonder if the same is happening behind the scenes.

[The D.O.Z.]

(12-02-2023, 08:40 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Also funny how we look at this. We can't give all the credit to Burrow and Co. for our success. But we are gonna give all the negative credit to Evans? If a player is struggling to line up it seems fair to say could be a coaching problem. We certainly like to ignore the run game as much as possible on game days. I wonder if the same is happening behind the scenes.

I think the mental lapses we've seen from RBs not named Mixon have something to do with lack of usage. How many seasons did it take Williams to see offensive snaps? Evans seems to be in the eternal doghouse. Brown wasn't used much, if at all, pre-IR. Ya can't get better if ya don't play.

[Bengalstripes9]

(12-02-2023, 05:09 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Well, that's a very high bar to set. Browning simply isn't good enough. The Bengals offense is set up to allow their top flight QB to move the ball down the field. That guy is now gone. Cincinnati went from the #2 guy in the league to the 40th or 50th best QB. The defense is porous and there is no run game.

They aren't making the playoffs. 

High bar? What’s your criteria to consider a coach ‘elite’?

Belicheck won with backup qbs. Andy Reid has done it. Plenty of elite coaches have done it.

Zac had his choice in the offseason for backup qbs and went with simien. He brought this on himself. You make your own luck. Elite players and coaches make their own luck.

[NUGDUKWE]

(12-02-2023, 08:54 PM)The D.O.Z. Wrote: I think the mental lapses we've seen from RBs not named Mixon have something to do with lack of usage. How many seasons did it take Williams to see offensive snaps? Evans seems to be in the eternal doghouse. Brown wasn't used much, if at all, pre-IR. Ya can't get better if ya don't play.

I know Williams struggled with injuries. But I think you are right they can't get better if they don't play. So at a certain point we have to play them and really should have played them more by now.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-02-2023, 09:05 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: High bar? What’s your criteria to consider a coach ‘elite’?

Belicheck won with backup qbs. Andy Reid has done it. Plenty of elite coaches have done it.

Zac had his choice in the offseason for backup qbs and went with simien. He brought this on himself. You make your own luck. Elite players and coaches make their own luck.

He also used 3 draft picks to trade up and get Ryan Finley.

He also brought in Brandon Allen because of his time with the Rams.

[The D.O.Z.]

(12-02-2023, 09:15 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I know Williams struggled with injuries. But I think you are right they can't get better if they don't play. So at a certain point we have to play them and really should have played them more by now.

Exactly, and it's tough to see what you have in a guy like Brown, in the preseason when you run him out there behind PS and no-business-suiting-up offensive linemen. Of course he's gonna average 2 YPC! Now they have the opportunity (excuse, really) to be using ALL these RBs and they run the ball 11 times. I just don't get it. If Zac thinks he can just call the Burrow offense for Jake, we won't win another game all year.

[ezekiel23]

(12-01-2023, 01:08 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Because of what you wrote in your last paragraph: people think with their emotions.

That's the problem with the world today, people don't use logic, common-sense or practicality and think/act based on their feelings: the, "fire Zac," nonsense is just that.

I'm not going to get into it more as this is not P&R, but, "acting on your feelings," is why a lot of the world is ****** up.

I don’t really have a problem with Zac as HC.I will have to admit that I think he should limit himself to HC,and stop calling the plays.
In all reality,considering the brutal schedule we have ahead of us,there is a chance this team doesn’t win another game this season.

If you think people are “acting on their feelings”now,then imagine if they tank the rest of the season.

[Bengalstripes9]

(12-02-2023, 09:22 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: He also used 3 draft picks to trade up and get Ryan Finley.

He also brought in Brandon Allen because of his time with the Rams.

Yeah he screwed the pooch with that one. Backup qb is either not important to him or he’s bad at evaluating. I forgot to mention the 9ers have won with a variety of average qbs. They’ve got an elite coach and scheme with a lot of elite players.

The ravens too. They made the playoffs with a no name qb last year and I’m not sure if that qb is still on the team. If not for his poor play on the goaline we likely lose that game as we were being dominated by their defense.

Elite coaches will lose when the team falls apart like in New England. Eventually with salary cap and players aging that happens. Look at how quickly the ravens have rebuilt though. Harbaugh is an elite coach. I don’t like him. But you have to respect great players and coaches to be a fan of the game and unbiased. And if a player or coach wants to be elite, they better respect other elite players and coaches and learn from them.

Burrow is an elite player. I want to see Zac prove himself as an elite coach. He has a great opportunity right now. If he fails he’ll no doubt get more opportunities. But if he can’t win it all with burrow and doesn’t take advantage of his opportunities we’re out of luck.

I’m not trying to be negative I’m just trying to be unbiased. The team and coaching needs to improve if they want to win a championship.

If Zac can make the playoffs with a backup qb, I’ll consider him an elite coach. I stand by that. I want him to prove me wrong.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-02-2023, 08:34 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Well I would say a rookie mistake but if the player does it for the 1st 7 games of the year he'd be pushing his luck. But what about the latter half of that post. Marvin lost his stud WR and QB while having a bad defense and it was unacceptable for him to only get 1 win after. Where Zac lost his QB and if he goes winless will anyone care? 

I was for Marvin's removal after Jan 2016. I was pretty apathetic after that. The roster was bad his last few years. He wasn't going to do more than 6-7 wins, and that wasn't all on him. But I was done. I didn't really care. Like I said, roster was bad and aging. His last year he had to be DC midway to stop the bleeding, I'm sure you remember. So the rookies did worse with that roster drafted for totally different systems and styles. Lou struggled, Zac struggled. Then they infused some talent, and were in a Super Bowl two years later. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-02-2023, 08:54 PM)The D.O.Z. Wrote: I think the mental lapses we've seen from RBs not named Mixon have something to do with lack of usage. How many seasons did it take Williams to see offensive snaps? Evans seems to be in the eternal doghouse. Brown wasn't used much, if at all, pre-IR. Ya can't get better if ya don't play.

If they're doing it in practice regularly, why would you? I get it if Brown does it. The other two? They've been here how many years? They shouldn't be making those kind of remedial errors in a game. Gio and Perine were fill ins for Mixon. They didn't do that dumb stuff.

[KillerGoose]

(12-02-2023, 09:05 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: High bar? What’s your criteria to consider a coach ‘elite’?

Belicheck won with backup qbs. Andy Reid has done it. Plenty of elite coaches have done it.

Zac had his choice in the offseason for backup qbs and went with simien. He brought this on himself. You make your own luck. Elite players and coaches make their own luck.

There is a lot that can go into being an elite coach. To be clear, I don't think that Zac is an elite coach. However, I also balk at the idea of the bar being "making the playoffs with Browning." Maybe I am wrong, but I have no reason to believe that Browning is any better than awful relatively speaking and that is on top of the myriad of issues that Cincinnati already has. The defense has issues, the run game stinks and now the passing game also stinks. 

You're right that if ZT somehow pulled it off, he would have a strong claim to being an "elite" coach. The fact of the matter is that they definitely won't. Elite status should have a high bar, but what you're saying is effectively impossible IMO. I personally don't think there is a coach in the league that coaches this Cincinnati squad from 5-6 into the playoffs.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-02-2023, 08:40 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Also funny how we look at this. We can't give all the credit to Burrow and Co. for our success. But we are gonna give all the negative credit to Evans? If a player is struggling to line up it seems fair to say could be a coaching problem. We certainly like to ignore the run game as much as possible on game days. I wonder if the same is happening behind the scenes.

That's not what I said at all. Burrow deserves a ton of credit, I'm pointing out he can't get much of the blame. 

Yes, that's totally a coaching problem....or a mental lapse from a player. They've been here multiple years. That shouldn't be happening. That would seem to be a position coach issue.  Then again, how many times did Gio and Perine have to be told where to line up?

[Bengalstripes9]

(12-03-2023, 12:15 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: There is a lot that can go into being an elite coach. To be clear, I don't think that Zac is an elite coach. However, I also balk at the idea of the bar being "making the playoffs with Browning." Maybe I am wrong, but I have no reason to believe that Browning is any better than awful relatively speaking and that is on top of the myriad of issues that Cincinnati already has. The defense has issues, the run game stinks and now the passing game also stinks. 

You're right that if ZT somehow pulled it off, he would have a strong claim to being an "elite" coach. The fact of the matter is that they definitely won't. Elite status should have a high bar, but what you're saying is effectively impossible IMO. I personally don't think there is a coach in the league that coaches this Cincinnati squad from 5-6 into the playoffs.

That’s fair. I think we both agree he isn’t elite, but can prove he is elite if he makes the playoffs this year. I’m not saying there won’t be other opportunities for him down the line to prove himself. Coaches can improve. He needs to improve quick so we don’t miss our window though. We’ve already wasted 3 years and he failed at protecting burrow in burrows rookie year. The last two years were their best opportunities with the salary situation for our star players. Brady and Belicheck didn’t waste those opportunities. Things will have to turn around quick to be in any sort of dynasty consideration. I think burrow is the type of player that has dynasty potential so I’m hoping we don’t miss out on that. Mahomes on the other hand is in a good pace. Just stating facts and I hope to see management and players use it as motivation and not accept defeat.

[Trademark]

(12-01-2023, 12:50 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Seriously, what are we doing? The fire Zach stuff makes our fanbase look incredibly dumb.

The guy has given us more playoff success the past two years than I have had in my ENTIRE lifetime. One Super Bowl appearance, two AFC Championship games, 5 playoff wins. Were we really expecting to go places this year with Browning as our QB? I mean the season is chalked up as a loss as soon as Burrow's ligament exploded. We aren't winning anything with him the same way the Colts weren't winning anything without Peyton Manning.

Is he perfect? No. But no head coach is. People bag on his offense (although they've been REALLY good when Joe is healthy) but...

his offense is a by product of what BURROW likes to do as a QB. It's THEIR offense. It's a collaboration between ZT, Callahan, and Burrow. It won't change unless Burrow want's it to change...and it actually works when Burrow is healthy.

I guess I just don't get why everyone is so emotional and wants to fire ZT all of the sudden. Sure there are some changes that the team needs to make (running the ball better, protecting Joe better, etc.) but firing a coach seems a bit extreme and emotional and weird to me.

Because he's not a good coach and never has been. Burrow is the one that has carried this clown.

[Brownshoe]

Zac should be able to squeak out a couple wins the rest of the way. Browning is about as good as a lot of the QBs we'll be facing the rest of the year. If he loses out that should 100% be a huge knock against him. The Bengals definitely need a new offensive playcaller and a new OL coach. If Zac doesn't want to give up the reigns when it comes o calling plays then he needs to go. There's no reason why he needs to be stubborn. He rarely has had success at doing it his whole coaching career.

[TecmoBengals]

I think the "Fire Zac" talk is silly. I'm comfortable though with a "Be sure to adapt as needed, Zac" call from fans.