Lou speaks on the state of the defense

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-28-2023, 02:50 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Time to see what FA and the draft can offer.

After we are officially out of the Playoffs sure. I am not just going to give up until we are officially done. I mean, the Defense did play pretty 
damn great against the Colts besides the 1 TD drive. I think Minshew is a pretty good QB too and that team has a good running attack, a great
OL and some good weapons. If we learn to jam WR's more at the line and take better angles in the secondary and at LB, these big plays will 
not happen near as often.

[TecmoBengals]

(12-28-2023, 02:57 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: After we are officially out of the Playoffs sure. I am not just going to give up until we are officially done. I mean, the Defense did play pretty 
damn great against the Colts besides the 1 TD drive. I think Minshew is a pretty good QB too and that team has a good running attack, a great
OL and some good weapons. If we learn to jam WR's more at the line and take better angles in the secondary and at LB, these big plays will 
not happen near as often.

I'm not giving up either but the defense has had too many bad games. The defense will need some offseason attention whether or not we make the playoffs.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-28-2023, 03:06 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: I'm not giving up either but the defense has had too many bad games. The defense will need some offseason attention whether or not we make the playoffs.

For sure, bring in Christian Wilkins or Chris Jones in FA and Draft T'Vondre Sweat in the 2nd round and that would be a nice start.

[J24]

(12-28-2023, 03:14 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: For sure, bring in Christian Wilkins or Chris Jones in FA and Draft T'Vondre Sweat in the 2nd round and that would be a nice start.

I can't imagine either one of those guys hitting the open Market! Well have to trade for a DT and  pay huge money for them as well(Im talking top tier guys). Sweat will eventually be a 1st Rd player. Guys that big with that twitch don't last in the draft!

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-28-2023, 03:22 PM)J24 Wrote: I can't imagine either one of those guys hitting the open Market! Well have to trade for a DT and  pay huge money for them as well(Im talking top tier guys). Sweat will eventually be a 1st Rd player. Guys that big with that twitch don't last in the draft!

You wouldn't think so, but the Chiefs didn't handle the Chris Jones situation that well this year and the Dolphins don't have a ton of 
money to spend on Wilkins. If we don't extend Tee we can afford one of these guys pretty sure. I agree on Sweat but Whatever said
he is like 50th on the prospect list right now. I have him higher though for sure.

[J24]

(12-28-2023, 03:31 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You wouldn't think so, but the Chiefs didn't handle the Chris Jones situation that well this year and the Dolphins don't have a ton of 
money to spend on Wilkins. If we don't extend Tee we can afford one of these guys pretty sure. I agree on Sweat but Whatever said
he is like 50th on the prospect list right now. I have him higher though for sure.

I imagine that the Dolphins will do a bunch of restructuring and cuts to make sure they can afford Wilkins. On a side not Wilkins will be 29 next year. So not sure I would pay him that big of a contract with his age. Same thing goes for Jones.

If we get a big name DT I would hope it would be a guy 27 and under. A guy like Christian Baramore from NE would be nice!

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-28-2023, 03:51 PM)J24 Wrote: I imagine that the Dolphins will do a bunch of restructuring and cuts to make sure they can afford Wilkins. On a side not Wilkins will be 29 next year. So not sure I would pay him that big of a contract with his age. Same thing goes for Jones.

If we get a big name DT I would hope it would be a guy 27 and under. A guy like Christian Baramore from NE would be nice!

Good call on Barmore and we don't like to sign guys who are over 30 lately. We like to stay young which I think is a good way to go about things.

Pierce and Madabuike of the Ravens could also hit FA. I don't know how old they are but they are good as well.

[J24]

(12-28-2023, 03:54 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Good call on Barmore and we don't like to sign guys who are over 30 lately. We like to stay young which I think is a good way to go about things.

Pierce and Madabuike of the Ravens could also hit FA. I don't know how old they are but they are good as well.

Madubuike would be a dream and he would be 27 next season .

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-28-2023, 04:10 PM)J24 Wrote: Madubuike would be a dream and he would be 27 next season .

Nice, a ton of options in both FA and this upcoming Draft.

[PCB Bengal Fan]

(12-28-2023, 11:04 AM)impactplaya Wrote: If Awuzie jams Pickens at the LOS
It's possible those big gains by Pickens
Never happens. It's the little things
If you can disrupt the route of the WR
Then it throws the delicate timing of the play off

I don't think we've played like that in decades. The more zone you play the more jams should happen in my opinion.

[KillerGoose]

(12-28-2023, 05:06 PM)PCB Bengal Fan Wrote: I don't think we've played like that in decades. The more zone you play the more jams should happen in my opinion.

Every team in the NFL plays like this every season, just some more than others. It's common to see when a defense is going man and sending pressure. They are trying to buy any extra time possible to allow the pressure to get home. The downside to it is it can be really, really hard to bump good receivers. If you're playing press man and you don't get your hands on that man, you're now in a tough spot as a corner and you are on an island. Awuzie actually had decent coverage considering he didn't get his hands on him but Pickens made a savvy move with a late push-off to get separation at the last second. To compound that, Battle stopped running as the ball was getting there and allowed Pickens to pull away once the ball was caught. 

Pressing in zone is a little less common because it is riskier and doesn't really fit the theme you're trying to play. You need guys in the secondary to be able to pull it off. Remember, in zone coverage that the DB isn't covering a man, he's covering a zone. If you're running cover three, that boundary DB has a deep responsibility. You don't want him to get stuck at the LOS trying to hand fight with a receiver that allows enough time for a TE or slot receiver to get behind him. There are variations of zone coverage like press/bail 3 that allows a corner to get physical at the LOS and flip his hips to get deep but you often see these guys having space between them and the receiver so they can watch the QBs eyes. 

[Soonerpeace]

(12-28-2023, 02:57 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: After we are officially out of the Playoffs sure. I am not just going to give up until we are officially done. I mean, the Defense did play pretty 
damn great against the Colts besides the 1 TD drive. I think Minshew is a pretty good QB too and that team has a good running attack, a great
OL and some good weapons. If we learn to jam WR's more at the line and take better angles in the secondary and at LB, these big plays will 
not happen near as often.

(12-28-2023, 03:31 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You wouldn't think so, but the Chiefs didn't handle the Chris Jones situation that well this year and the Dolphins don't have a ton of 
money to spend on Wilkins. If we don't extend Tee we can afford one of these guys pretty sure. I agree on Sweat but Whatever said
he is like 50th on the prospect list right now. I have him higher though for sure.

Don’t forget Marion Hobby coached and recruited Wilkins at Clemson

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-28-2023, 05:28 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Every team in the NFL plays like this every season, just some more than others. It's common to see when a defense is going man and sending pressure. They are trying to buy any extra time possible to allow the pressure to get home. The downside to it is it can be really, really hard to bump good receivers. If you're playing press man and you don't get your hands on that man, you're now in a tough spot as a corner and you are on an island. Awuzie actually had decent coverage considering he didn't get his hands on him but Pickens made a savvy move with a late push-off to get separation at the last second. To compound that, Battle stopped running as the ball was getting there and allowed Pickens to pull away once the ball was caught. 

Pressing in zone is a little less common because it is riskier and doesn't really fit the theme you're trying to play. You need guys in the secondary to be able to pull it off. Remember, in zone coverage that the DB isn't covering a man, he's covering a zone. If you're running cover three, that boundary DB has a deep responsibility. You don't want him to get stuck at the LOS trying to hand fight with a receiver that allows enough time for a TE or slot receiver to get behind him. There are variations of zone coverage like press/bail 3 that allows a corner to get physical at the LOS and flip his hips to get deep but you often see these guys having space between them and the receiver so they can watch the QBs eyes. 

Nice post KillerGoose. Chido did have decent coverage on that bomb. Just perfectly thrown and a slight push off from Pickens was just too 
good. Didn't see Battle stop running the first time, that isn't cool. Spot on about pressing in the Zone and why we don't see it often. I think 
we need to play more Man as that seems what DJ Turner specifically is more comfortable in, but that takes away from Chido who is better
in Zone. It is a fine line.

(12-28-2023, 05:31 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Don’t forget Marion Hobby coached and recruited Wilkins at Clemson

Didn't know that, thanks.

[*bfine32*]

Fun fact: DJ Reeder is 2 days older than Chris Jones.

[Soonerpeace]

(12-28-2023, 01:31 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I need to watch more tape and focus on the defense. I have watched a lot of All-22 but focusing on the offense. From what I have seen of the defense, they are utilizing Battle very similarly to Vonn Bell. They are splitting him pretty evenly between the box and free safety. I haven't been impressed with his time at FS and I'm not sure he feels comfortable there. Walked up into the box he has done fine, I think. 

Oh I think he’d be great in the nickel. He’s got great instincts and sure fire tackler

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-28-2023, 12:38 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: That could be telling but I’d also need to see his ranking amongst all safeties. And I’m sure not bagging on him or criticizing him. I agreed about him being a rookie and that Bates was not Bates as a rookie either. I mentioned his instincts may make up for his lack of speed. But our safety play hasn’t been as good. It’s a major discussion is it not? Not that we shouldn’t have expected it. I remember arguing with Nate there’d be a drop off but he had full faith in Lou. But in fairness to Nate he’s always seeing the best in everybody except Joe Mixon lol.

Hasn't quite played 50% of max snaps yet, so if you set it at 20% (to weed out guys playing less than 250+ snaps), he's 13th. For every saftey graded this year, regardless of snaps played, he's 20th. 

[Whatever]

(12-28-2023, 01:48 PM)samhain Wrote: Also wanna say, I think many of us really underestimated the loss of Bates.  Some posters, myself included, expected significant impact, but not anything like this.  My thinking was that there were enough other talented players on the defense that the loss could be sufficiently mitigated.  I think this particular perspective really failed to realize how big of a role he played here.  

People get into the concept of premium positions and where a team should or shouldn't shell out money.  Obviously our bread and butter is in offensive skill guys.  Obviously they needed to plug holes in the gushing dam that was the OL due to horrid talent eval and subsequent drafting.  Even so, a team needs to be able to identify it's key guys.  They've survived stretches without Reader, Hubbard, Wilson, Awuzie, etc.  They've absolutely cratered without Bates.  

I get that it's all but a given that this team doesn't want to pay a safety huge money, but if that particular safety is holding the defense together, then who cares?  You could argue that having that caliber of safety back there allowed them to get by with running the Eli Apples of the world out there for near full seasons.  It allowed CTB to get on the job training and not hurt the team significantly.  That's worth the price if you ask me when a player breaks the bank but allows you to skimp at multiple other spots.

I think our FO does a good job more often than not in the Taylor Burrow era, but this was a rare example of malpractice.  Everyone's view of Bates was shaded by his negotiations and hyper aggressive agent Mulgheta.  The lack of INTs also played a part.  It's unfortunate, but someone in the FO should have recognized the potential weight of his absence and ponied up.  Bates was super dependable in the regular season and a monster in the postseason. Hell, there was a time a few years ago where he was just about the only guy on the team worth paying any guaranteed money.  He was a cornerstone Taylor guy from the start.  Should have locked him up long term then instead of playing the tag game until the clock ran out.

Run defense has fallen off way more than pass defense, though.  We're 26th in run d this year compared to 5th in '22.  By comparison, pass defense has gone from 16th in '22 to 28th this year.

We also have to remember that we had 5 vets starting last year in the secondary until Awuzie went down later in the year.  This year, it's been mostly rookies and 2nd year guys.  Awuzie doesn't look to be 100% recovered from his injury, Scott was a bust,and Hill played more CB than S as a rookie.

[Soonerpeace]

(12-28-2023, 06:00 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Hasn't quite played 50% of max snaps yet, so if you set it at 20% (to weed out guys playing less than 250+ snaps), he's 13th. For every saftey graded this year, regardless of snaps played, he's 20th. 

That’s pretty good. So how has Dax done? How does our safety play compare to last year grading wise? Since our pass defense is worse where’s the blame? I’m seriously all ears? What’s your opinion?

[Shake n Blake]

(12-28-2023, 11:59 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Solid remarks. Especially about Bates was not Bates straight out of Wake Forest. Not so sure Lou didn’t contribute a lot to his progression. What this team really needs is to have some draft picks pan out or elevate. It’d be great if Yoshi and Charlie Jones could replace Tee and Tyler. It’d be great if Chase Brown would replace Joe Mixon and find a bigger back for power running and third down blocking. It’d be great if Zach Carter came through for Reader ( boy that’s a dream). If we had all that salary cap room we could get a great OT for Jonah. We could get a great DT & safety in FA.

Yes, it'd be great to get a really solid FA RT up in here.

[*bfine32*]

My biggest gripe with this team is they rely on the "next man up" mentality. I'm sure that makes for a strong locker room but it may not build championships.

Tee goes down we do nothing

CTB goes down we do nothing

Reeder goes down we do nothing

Burrow goes down we do nothing

Chase goes down we do nothing.

Meanwhile the likes of Julio Jones, Carson Wentz, Marcus Peters, Ndomakong Sue are/were available