Frank Pollack back?

[*ochocincos*]

(01-12-2024, 03:25 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If the Bengals plan to seek their long term RT in the draft, I would be completely content with the team signing any one of those three for 2 years to bridge the transition.  Even if they liked one of them well enough for a 3 year deal, and went to a mid-round, longer development option at T in the draft, I think that it could work for the team.  

I should note also that Pollack is familiar with George Fant too due to their time together with NYJ.
With that said, Fant is now on a fantastic upward team in the Texans, so I could easily see him staying there.

For me personally, the Bengals should not expect any rookie to be able to make an immediate leap within their first year (other than probably a 1st rounder), so I would want to sign any FA RT (lol I love typing that) to a 2-year deal. I definitely wouldn't go over that for a 30+ year old player either.

[depthchart]

(01-12-2024, 03:14 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I do think Jonah will at least seek $10+ mill.
Spotrac has his estimated market value at $14.9 mill APY.
If one of these other guys is willing to come in for less than $7 mill right at the start of FA negotiations, I'm grabbing them rather than waiting to see if Jonah's price tag comes down.
Trent Brown especially can play both LT and RT, so it's not like Jonah would be the only guy with that versatility.

So the "Market" is saying that Jonah is better than these other players because he may cost up to $14.9 mill APY ?

                                             -OR-

It's the AGE of say Trent Brown & Tyron Smith that is driving down their Cost due to fear of injury, etc ?

[*ochocincos*]

(01-12-2024, 03:41 PM)depthchart Wrote: So the "Market" is saying that Jonah is better than these other players because he may cost up to $14.9 mill APY ?

                                             -OR-

It's the AGE of say Trent Brown & Tyron Smith that is driving down their Cost due to fear of injury, etc ?

The number I gave is from Spotrac specifically.
Here's their breakdown of how they came up with their estimated market value.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/jonah-williams-29046/market-value/

[depthchart]

(01-12-2024, 03:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The number I gave is from Spotrac specifically.
Here's their breakdown of how they came up with their estimated market value.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/jonah-williams-29046/market-value/

Age and Statistical Production seem to drive it.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-12-2024, 03:58 PM)depthchart Wrote: Age and Statistical Production seem to drive it.

I will say my expectation is due to Jonah's younger age and versatility and experience playing both sides, he'll put his price higher at the start of FA.
I don't think he'll be an immediate re-sign by the Bengals, if he comes back at all.

[SunsetBengal]

(01-12-2024, 03:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The number I gave is from Spotrac specifically.
Here's their breakdown of how they came up with their estimated market value.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/jonah-williams-29046/market-value/

That is nice that they show how they came up with that figure.  I've checked on current market value before, but just to get an idea of value.  Next time I'll spend a minute and explore the options.

[007BengalsFan]

(01-12-2024, 03:41 PM)depthchart Wrote: So the "Market" is saying that Jonah is better than these other players because he may cost up to $14.9 mill APY ?

                                             -OR-

It's the AGE of say Trent Brown & Tyron Smith that is driving down their Cost due to fear of injury, etc ?

You can get the same production if not better by letting Jonah leave and signing Jermaine Eluemunor.   Eluemunor gave up less sacks than Jonah 6 vs 8 and had a higher overall PFF grade 68.5 vs 58.5.  Although not a great RT, Eluemunor would be an upgrade and cost less.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-12-2024, 04:38 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: You can get the same production if not better by letting Jonah leave and signing Jermaine Eluemunor.   Eluemunor gave up less sacks than Jonah 6 vs 8 and had a higher overall PFF grade 68.5 vs 58.5.  Although not a great RT, Eluemunor would be an upgrade and cost less.

While yes it's 6 vs 8, Eluemunor had 552 pass block snaps to Jonah's 730.
Pass Blocking Snaps-to-Sacks ratio for each is:
Eluemunor - 92 snaps per sack
Williams - 91.25 snaps per sack

On that note, let's do the same for Trent Brown and George Fant:
Brown - 115.33 snaps per sack
Fant - 186.33 snaps per sack

For additional data, here's the Snaps-to-Total-Pressures ratio for each:
Fant - 18.63 snaps per pressure
Brown - 20.35 snaps per pressure
Eluemunor - 19.71 snaps per pressure
Williams - 17.80 snaps per pressure

So all 3 do look to be at least on par if not somewhat better than Jonah.
Fant or Brown seems to be a true upgrade.

[007BengalsFan]

(01-12-2024, 04:54 PM)ochocincos Wrote: While yes it's 6 vs 8, Eluemunor had 552 pass block snaps to Jonah's 730.
Pass Blocking Snaps-to-Sacks ratio for each is:
Eluemunor - 92 snaps per sack
Williams - 91.25 snaps per sack

On that note, let's do the same for Trent Brown and George Fant:
Brown - 115.33 snaps per sack
Fant - 186.33 snaps per sack

For additional data, here's the Snaps-to-Total-Pressures ratio for each:
Fant - 18.63 snaps per pressure
Brown - 20.35 snaps per pressure
Eluemunor - 19.71 snaps per pressure
Williams - 17.80 snaps per pressure

So all 3 do look to be at least on par if not somewhat better than Jonah.
Fant or Brown seems to be a true upgrade.

It's a more complicated number issue for sure because you need to take several factors in to account.  You also cant go just by the number of pass block plays because not all pass blocking is the same.  For example how long is the QB holding on to the ball which results in the offensive linemen needing to hold their blocks longer.  The first few games of the season the Bengals offense was doing nothing but short 5 yard pass plays.  Its hard for a defense to get pressure when the QB is throwing the ball immediately.   Jonah and the rest of the offensive line wouldnt be holding their blocks very long.  Cincinnati primarily played Burrow and Browning at QB.  Las Vegas played O'Connell and Garoppolo.  Burrow got rid of the ball quicker than any of those QBs.  O'Connell got rid of the ball quicker than Browning but not Burrow.  Garoppolo held on to the ball the longest.  On average the Las Vegas line had to hold their blocks longer because their QBs held on to the ball longer.   That is a factor in pass block plays/sacks/pressures.  But yes I agree any of those guys look like they could do as well as Jonah.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-12-2024, 04:54 PM)ochocincos Wrote: While yes it's 6 vs 8, Eluemunor had 552 pass block snaps to Jonah's 730.
Pass Blocking Snaps-to-Sacks ratio for each is:
Eluemunor - 92 snaps per sack
Williams - 91.25 snaps per sack

On that note, let's do the same for Trent Brown and George Fant:
Brown - 115.33 snaps per sack
Fant - 186.33 snaps per sack

For additional data, here's the Snaps-to-Total-Pressures ratio for each:
Fant - 18.63 snaps per pressure
Brown - 20.35 snaps per pressure
Eluemunor - 19.71 snaps per pressure
Williams - 17.80 snaps per pressure

So all 3 do look to be at least on par if not somewhat better than Jonah.
Fant or Brown seems to be a true upgrade.

In the end coaches know much better on how players performed,  we, pff, etc never know the inner working of the assigned responsibilities each play.. I think it comes down to 2 things, does organization feel Jonah played well enough at RT and do they feel he can improve in this 1nd year at RT.

[SunsetBengal]

(01-12-2024, 04:54 PM)ochocincos Wrote: While yes it's 6 vs 8, Eluemunor had 552 pass block snaps to Jonah's 730.
Pass Blocking Snaps-to-Sacks ratio for each is:
Eluemunor - 92 snaps per sack
Williams - 91.25 snaps per sack

On that note, let's do the same for Trent Brown and George Fant:
Brown - 115.33 snaps per sack
Fant - 186.33 snaps per sack

For additional data, here's the Snaps-to-Total-Pressures ratio for each:
Fant - 18.63 snaps per pressure
Brown - 20.35 snaps per pressure
Eluemunor - 19.71 snaps per pressure
Williams - 17.80 snaps per pressure

So all 3 do look to be at least on par if not somewhat better than Jonah.
Fant or Brown seems to be a true upgrade.

When considering the Patriots offense this year (or lack thereof), I would say that you almost need to look at bigger picture numbers to get a real feel on Brown.

[007BengalsFan]

(01-12-2024, 07:09 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: When considering the Patriots offense this year (or lack thereof), I would say that you almost need to look at bigger picture numbers to get a real feel on Brown.

That was kinda my thought on the comparison too.  Stats are a good way to evaluate players but its more than just looking at numbers.  I think most people would agree however that Jonah is not that great a tackle and he could be replaced with someone that is just as good and cheaper.

[SunsetBengal]

(01-12-2024, 07:39 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: That was kinda my thought on the comparison too.  Stats are a good way to evaluate players but its more than just looking at numbers.  I think most people would agree however that Jonah is not that great a tackle and he could be replaced with someone that is just as good and cheaper.

Absolutely, I think that the team would be foolhardy to extend any offer of $10M/per or more to Jonah Williams.  He's not going to get better, after 5 years and a couple of serious injuries, he is who he is. 

Now, had he not had to sit out his rookie year, and not gotten his knee injured, we might have an entirely different situation with him.  At the time, he really did seem worthy of his draft slot. 

[Bengal Dude]

(01-12-2024, 02:46 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It was actually the Bobby Hart RE-signing that was the real problem. He played for 1yr/$1m in 2018, was predictably bad, and then they still re-signed him in the next offseason and he continued to be bad for more money. 

Re-signing Jonah would be even worse. Not only would it be for more money and we've already seen a lot more of him so should clearly know better, but when Bobby Hart was re-signed we weren't very good and we didn't expect to be great. Now we need to be good because expectations are we need to be good.

That 2019 offseason was so freaking weird with free agents. Re-signing Hart and Preston Brown to bigger deals and then giving a big deal to freaking BW Webb. The only signing I didn't have a problem with was John Miller.

[jj22]

Yea that 2019 offseason was just off with the late coaching hires and them not really knowing the team.

[GodFather]

I don’t understand why Pollack would even be considered to come back. How many times has the OL and running game not been able to gain 1yard on a fourth down with Pollack running the show with different players?

If we got that 1 yard against KC last month, who knows we would be in playoffs. It’s incredibly frustrating to see the FO to hold coaching more accountable. This has been consistent with Pollack since he came back, not isolated situations.

[BFritz21]

Pollack has got to go.

Zac said he expects all coaches back, but what's he supposed to say at this point in the season with no possible replacements known? He can't come out and say that they're looking for replacements, especially since information leaks, and doesn't want to upset the coaching staff or have the players lose faith.

I was a big fan of Pollack's but we gave him upgrades on the line and we were all expecting them to be at least good enough to lead us to the playoffs and they sucked when Burrow was healthy.

I expected the line to be a strength this year and they shit the bed when Burrow was healthy.

We can't sacrifice another year with Burrow in his prime hoping that it's not Pollack's fault.

[casear2727]

(01-14-2024, 05:19 PM)GodFather Wrote: I don’t understand why Pollack would even be considered to come back. How many times has the OL and running game not been able to gain 1yard on a fourth down with Pollack running the show with different players?

If we got that 1 yard against KC last month, who knows we would be in playoffs. It’s incredibly frustrating to see the FO to hold coaching more accountable. This has been consistent with Pollack since he came back, not isolated situations.

(01-14-2024, 05:38 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Pollack has got to go.

Zac said he expects all coaches back, but what's he supposed to say at this point in the season with no possible replacements known? He can't come out and say that they're looking for replacements, especially since information leaks, and doesn't want to upset the coaching staff or have the players lose faith.

I was a big fan of Pollack's but we gave him upgrades on the line and we were all expecting them to be at least good enough to lead us to the playoffs and they sucked when Burrow was healthy.

I expected the line to be a strength this year and they shit the bed when Burrow was healthy.

We can't sacrifice another year with Burrow in his prime hoping that it's not Pollack's fault.

They have to know the issues with Pollack. I truly believe the issue is finding a rock solid replacement. We prioritized the wrong Callahan a few years ago.

[BFritz21]

(01-14-2024, 06:23 PM)casear2727 Wrote: They have to know the issues with Pollack.  I truly believe the issue is finding a rock solid replacement.  We prioritized the wrong Callahan a few years ago.

I know we used to have an issue with being too loyal, which I think was more of Mike Brown being too big of a tight ass to pay top coaches (and players), but now I don't understand it because there has to be a better offensive line coach out there.

I know they don't grow on trees but he has been awful.

[Soonerpeace]

(01-14-2024, 06:23 PM)casear2727 Wrote: They have to know the issues with Pollack. I truly believe the issue is finding a rock solid replacement. We prioritized the wrong Callahan a few years ago.

They really couldn’t bring Callahan in from Cleveland unless it was a promotion. Even if Cleveland let him I don’t think they liked the dynamics of Zac now being his former college coach’s boss and also his son being his boss. Certainly he’s a lot better than Pollack.