are Bengals that low on cash or??

[kalibengal]

General question:
Why is it that other so called "small market " teams hire actual GM'S and decent scouting depts and Bengals refuse? Is it still the famous MB cheapness, or actually not having the $ to do so?
I thought Katie Brown was going to bring this team into present day but seeing them all over the Senior bowl yr after yr because they dont have enough scouts to really find the diamonds out there is just getting old. The fact they rarely sign a big name in FA (OB was exception) should also be a reason to invest in scouting, developing and drafting talent.
I look at what the Rams did in the draft and all of a sudden that Stafford/Goff trade doesnt look too bad for them. They are a contender again.
Lastly: Tobin is no GM, yes we have selected some good players here and there not counting no brainers like JB and Chase, but picking Jonah that high, and the rest of the misses on OL and DL are glaring at this point. Don't get me started on our 6th round punter: Robbins .....ugh

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

It's the way his dad did it is likely the main reason for scouts.
He paid himself $1m/yr for decades to be the GM is likely the main reason for the GM.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-02-2024, 12:31 PM)kalibengal Wrote: General question:
Why is it that other so called "small market " teams hire actual GM'S  and decent scouting depts and Bengals refuse? Is it still the famous MB cheapness, or actually not having the $ to do so?
I thought Katie Brown was going to bring this team into present day but seeing them all over the Senior bowl yr after yr because they dont have enough scouts to really find the diamonds out there is just getting old. The fact they rarely sign a big name in FA (OB was exception) should also be a reason to invest in scouting, developing and drafting talent.
I look at what the Rams did in the draft and all of a sudden that Stafford/Goff trade doesnt look too bad for them. They are a contender again.
Lastly: Tobin is no GM, yes we have selected some good players here and there not counting no brainers like JB and Chase, but picking Jonah that high, and the rest of the misses on OL and DL are glaring at this point.  Don't get me started on our 6th round punter: Robbins .....ugh

I'd be curious to see how much the Bengals' payroll is for FO, scouting, and coaching staff compared to other franchises.
It could be a lack of money thing, but I wouldn't think (or hope) that's the case.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-02-2024, 12:53 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'd be curious to see how much the Bengals' payroll is for FO, scouting, and coaching staff compared to other franchises.
It could be a lack of money thing, but I wouldn't think (or hope) that's the case.

I'm not sure of what they look like compared to the rest of the league, but I do know Zac has the largest coaching staff/advisors in team history.

[XenoMorph]

(02-02-2024, 12:31 PM)kalibengal Wrote: General question:
Why is it that other so called "small market " teams hire actual GM'S  and decent scouting depts and Bengals refuse? Is it still the famous MB cheapness, or actually not having the $ to do so?
I thought Katie Brown was going to bring this team into present day but seeing them all over the Senior bowl yr after yr because they dont have enough scouts to really find the diamonds out there is just getting old. The fact they rarely sign a big name in FA (OB was exception) should also be a reason to invest in scouting, developing and drafting talent.
I look at what the Rams did in the draft and all of a sudden that Stafford/Goff trade doesnt look too bad for them. They are a contender again.
Lastly: Tobin is no GM, yes we have selected some good players here and there not counting no brainers like JB and Chase, but picking Jonah that high, and the rest of the misses on OL and DL are glaring at this point.  Don't get me started on our 6th round punter: Robbins .....ugh

the Draft is a Lottery with far more misses than Hits for everyone

but Hindsight isnt a superpower.. that matters

[JoeyB2023]

(02-02-2024, 04:22 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: the Draft is a Lottery with far more misses than Hits for everyone

but Hindsight isnt a superpower.. that matters

I mean yes and no. The bengals could be doing a lot more to help themselves in the draft process and they don’t and the problem is the rest of the league is. I remember when the bengals took carman the next day there was an interview up of frank pollack literally saying he hadn’t seen the kid nor met him in person yet he was our oline coach and wanted glass eaters. That crap is pathetic to me imo.

[J24]

Duke has been the GM here since the 2010 or 2011 draft depending on who you talk too. Also I remember John Sheehan saying a couple of years ago on a podcast that the FO is actually bigger than people realize and more modern than people realize.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-02-2024, 12:31 PM)kalibengal Wrote: General question:
Why is it that other so called "small market " teams hire actual GM'S  and decent scouting depts and Bengals refuse? Is it still the famous MB cheapness, or actually not having the $ to do so?
I thought Katie Brown was going to bring this team into present day but seeing them all over the Senior bowl yr after yr because they dont have enough scouts to really find the diamonds out there is just getting old. The fact they rarely sign a big name in FA (OB was exception) should also be a reason to invest in scouting, developing and drafting talent.
I look at what the Rams did in the draft and all of a sudden that Stafford/Goff trade doesnt look too bad for them. They are a contender again.
Lastly: Tobin is no GM, yes we have selected some good players here and there not counting no brainers like JB and Chase, but picking Jonah that high, and the rest of the misses on OL and DL are glaring at this point.  Don't get me started on our 6th round punter: Robbins .....ugh

I believe most of the franchise owners came in with other sources of income, not strictly their football team.
Brown took over from his dad, and I don't think JB had a bunch of cash from other avenues when starting the franchise either.
For Mike, this has been the only business he's had the past 30 years.
So the only money he makes is from NFL-related sales and licensing.
I dunno exactly how many people buy Bengals merch, but from my understanding, the Bengals are one of the least popular teams in this regard.

In a related note, Mike Brown has also come across as extremely old-school and frugal, not seeing value in a lot of things that other franchises started doing (many) years ago.

[casear2727]

(02-02-2024, 03:47 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: I'm not sure of what they look like compared to the rest of the league, but I do know Zac has the largest coaching staff/advisors in team history.

(02-02-2024, 05:38 PM)J24 Wrote: Duke has been the GM here since the 2010 or 2011 draft depending on who you talk too. Also I remember John Sheehan saying a couple of years ago on a podcast that the FO is actually bigger than people realize and more modern than people realize.

This is how we compare to the Ravens:

Bengals current roster of Player Personnel:

• Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel
• Mike Potts Scouting Director (College)
• Steven Radicevic Scouting Director (Pro)
• Christian Sarkisian Scout
• Andrew Johnson Scout
• Sam Francis Football Data Analyst


Ravens:

Player Personnel
• Eric DeCosta Executive Vice President & General Manager
• Ozzie Newsome Executive Vice President
• George Kokinis Director of Player Personnel
• Nick Matteo Vice President of Football Administration
• Pat Moriarty Sr. Advisor to the General Manager
• David Blackburn Director of College Scouting
• David McDonald Director of Research & Development
• Steve Clagett Director of Learning & Development
• Mark Azevedo Assistant Director of Player Personnel
• Vincent Newsome Senior Player Personnel Executive
• Jenn Hoffman Chief of Staff to the General Manager
• Andrew Raphael National Scout
• Bobby Vega National Scout
• Q Attenoukon Area Scout
• Brandon Berning Midwest/Southwest Area Scout
• Joey Cleary Southeast Area Scout
• Corey Frazier West Coast Area Scout
• Patrick McDonough Northeast Area Scout
• Chas Stallard Southwest Area Scout
• Kevin Weidl Southeast/Midwest Area Scout
• Corey Krawiec Manager, Player Evaluations & Analytics
• Derrick Yam Manager of Data and Decision Science
• TJ Ajibola Football Operations Assistant
• Sophie Cortese Football Administration / Salary Cap Analyst
• Travis Hawkins Scout
• Darrius Heyward-Bey Player Personnel Assistant
• James Oncea Football Systems Developer
• Terrell Parker Scouting & Salary Cap Analyst
• Andrew Rogan Coaching / Scouting Analyst
• Maggie Domanowski Administrative Assistant to Player Personnel
• Jameel McClain Director of Player Engagement
• Dr. Lori Robinson Player Engagement Manager
• Valarie Wideman Player Services Manager
• O.J. Brigance Senior Advisor to Player Engagement

[casear2727]

Steelers:

Omar Khan General Manager
Dan Rooney Jr. Vice President of Player Personnel
Andy Weidl Assistant General Manager
Sheldon White Director of Pro Scouting
Mark Sadowski Director of Player Scouting
Dan Colbert Director of College Scouting
Phil Kreidler Senior Scouting Assistant
Kelvin Fisher Senior Scouting Assistant
Mark Bruener College Scout
Mike Butler College Scout
Chidi Iwuoma College Scout
Chris Watts College Scout
Zach Crockett College Scout
Jarrod Highberger College Scout
Jim Ward College Scout
Dennis MacInnis Pro/College Scout
Fawwaz Izzuddin Blesto Scout
Casey Weidl Scouting Coordinator
Cole Marcoux Director of Football Administration
Aidan Hennessey-Niland Team Operations Coordinator
Tosin Kazeem Football Analyst
Donovan Moore Football Analyst
Maureen Mannion Administrative Assistant
Anthony Rooney Scouting Intern
Braunson Williams Scouting Intern


Browns:

Andrew Healy Vice President, Research & Strategy
Dave Giuliani VP Research & Strategy
Nate Sterken Lead Data Scientist
Dom Borsani Football Research Analyst
Rishav Dutta Football Research Analyst
Austin Grosel Football Research Analyst
Brenan Latimer Football Research Analyst

Mike Cetta Director, Scouting Research
Zach Wigmore Scouting Research Coordinator
Hajriz Aliu Scouting Assistant
Ryan Conway Scouting Assistant
Nick Henkel Scouting Assistant
Greg Livingston Scouting Assistant
John Nussman Scouting Assistant
Alice Sullivan Scouting Assistant
Josh Temple Scouting Assistant
Cyrus Wolford Scouting Assistant

Glenn Cook Assistant GM & Vice President of Player Personnel
Ken Kovash Vice President, Player Personnel Process & Development
Megan Rock Personnel Operations Director
Dan Saganey Director, Player Personnel
Debra Kruszynski Manager, Travel and Compliance

Adam Al-Khayyal Max Paulus Director, College Scouting
Zach Ayers National Scout
Chris Buford National Scout
Josh Cox Area Scout
Matt Donahoe Area Scout
Gerald McCully Area Scout
Kathleen Wood Area Scout
Dan Zegers Area Scout
Joe Dever Area Scout
Shawn Heinlen Area ScoutDirector, Pro Scouting
Branden Francis Pro Scout

[*pally*]

You won't see wholesale changes to the team's management structure as long as Mike Brown is still alive.

[J24]

(02-02-2024, 08:43 PM)casear2727 Wrote: This is how we compare to the Ravens:

Bengals current roster of Player Personnel:

• Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel
• Mike Potts Scouting Director (College)
• Steven Radicevic Scouting Director (Pro)
• Christian Sarkisian Scout
• Andrew Johnson Scout
• Sam Francis Football Data Analyst


Ravens:

Player Personnel
• Eric DeCosta Executive Vice President & General Manager
• Ozzie Newsome Executive Vice President
• George Kokinis Director of Player Personnel
• Nick Matteo Vice President of Football Administration
• Pat Moriarty Sr. Advisor to the General Manager
• David Blackburn Director of College Scouting
• David McDonald Director of Research & Development
• Steve Clagett Director of Learning & Development
• Mark Azevedo Assistant Director of Player Personnel
• Vincent Newsome Senior Player Personnel Executive
• Jenn Hoffman Chief of Staff to the General Manager
• Andrew Raphael National Scout
• Bobby Vega National Scout
• Q Attenoukon Area Scout
• Brandon Berning Midwest/Southwest Area Scout
• Joey Cleary Southeast Area Scout
• Corey Frazier West Coast Area Scout
• Patrick McDonough Northeast Area Scout
• Chas Stallard Southwest Area Scout
• Kevin Weidl Southeast/Midwest Area Scout
• Corey Krawiec Manager, Player Evaluations & Analytics
• Derrick Yam Manager of Data and Decision Science
• TJ Ajibola Football Operations Assistant
• Sophie Cortese Football Administration / Salary Cap Analyst
• Travis Hawkins Scout
• Darrius Heyward-Bey Player Personnel Assistant
• James Oncea Football Systems Developer
• Terrell Parker Scouting & Salary Cap Analyst
• Andrew Rogan Coaching / Scouting Analyst
• Maggie Domanowski Administrative Assistant to Player Personnel
• Jameel McClain Director of Player Engagement
• Dr. Lori Robinson Player Engagement Manager
• Valarie Wideman Player Services Manager
• O.J. Brigance Senior Advisor to Player Engagement

Apparently they(FO) do not list everyone that works for the FO. This is according to John Sheehan formerly from cincy Jungle!

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-02-2024, 08:47 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Steelers:

People with "Scout/Scouting" in their title...

Ravens: 13
Steelers: 17
Browns: 21

Bengals: 4


"Why have our drafts been so bad for a decade now besides when we have a top 5 pick?"

Your coaches are never going to have as much time as full-time scouts to properly investigate into people. They won't be able to see them play in person when you can see how they interact with their teammates and the staff members, talk to their teachers, see how they practice, talk to them, make personal connections in a region you're assigned to in order to get the real scoop on guys from people in the know, and heck.. maybe you go to see Player A play a game and some unknown Player B really sticks out to you. None of that you will be able to see just online on film.

[casear2727]

(02-02-2024, 09:50 PM)J24 Wrote: Apparently they(FO) do not list everyone that works for the FO. This is according to John Sheehan formerly from cincy Jungle!

I know John, but sorry they have literally everyone in their front office listed like every other team.  They even list the receptionist.  

https://www.bengals.com/team/front-office-roster/

[kalibengal]

(02-02-2024, 08:47 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Steelers:

Omar Khan General Manager
Dan Rooney Jr. Vice President of Player Personnel
Andy Weidl Assistant General Manager
Sheldon White Director of Pro Scouting
Mark Sadowski Director of Player Scouting
Dan Colbert Director of College Scouting
Phil Kreidler Senior Scouting Assistant
Kelvin Fisher Senior Scouting Assistant
Mark Bruener College Scout
Mike Butler College Scout
Chidi Iwuoma College Scout
Chris Watts College Scout
Zach Crockett College Scout
Jarrod Highberger College Scout
Jim Ward College Scout
Dennis MacInnis Pro/College Scout
Fawwaz Izzuddin Blesto Scout
Casey Weidl Scouting Coordinator
Cole Marcoux Director of Football Administration
Aidan Hennessey-Niland Team Operations Coordinator
Tosin Kazeem Football Analyst
Donovan Moore Football Analyst
Maureen Mannion Administrative Assistant
Anthony Rooney Scouting Intern
Braunson Williams Scouting Intern


Browns:

Andrew Healy Vice President, Research & Strategy
Dave Giuliani VP Research & Strategy
Nate Sterken Lead Data Scientist
Dom Borsani Football Research Analyst
Rishav Dutta Football Research Analyst
Austin Grosel Football Research Analyst
Brenan Latimer Football Research Analyst

Mike Cetta Director, Scouting Research
Zach Wigmore Scouting Research Coordinator
Hajriz Aliu Scouting Assistant
Ryan Conway Scouting Assistant
Nick Henkel Scouting Assistant
Greg Livingston Scouting Assistant
John Nussman Scouting Assistant
Alice Sullivan Scouting Assistant
Josh Temple Scouting Assistant
Cyrus Wolford Scouting Assistant

Glenn Cook Assistant GM & Vice President of Player Personnel
Ken Kovash Vice President, Player Personnel Process & Development
Megan Rock Personnel Operations Director
Dan Saganey Director, Player Personnel
Debra Kruszynski Manager, Travel and Compliance

Adam Al-Khayyal Max Paulus Director, College Scouting
Zach Ayers National Scout
Chris Buford National Scout
Josh Cox Area Scout
Matt Donahoe Area Scout
Gerald McCully Area Scout
Kathleen Wood Area Scout
Dan Zegers Area Scout
Joe Dever Area Scout
Shawn Heinlen Area ScoutDirector, Pro Scouting
Branden Francis Pro Scout

BINGO! and thank you....this explains it all and honestly its even more disturbing then I imagined

[Daddy-O]

(02-03-2024, 11:55 AM)kalibengal Wrote: BINGO! and thank you....this explains it all and honestly its even more disturbing then I imagined

Disturbing how?  There is no correlation that having more personnel in the front office equals more success.  Fact:  Since 2016 the Bengals have won as many playoff games (5) than the Ravens, Browns and Steelers combined (5).

If the Bengals had poor drafts and less success it would be disturbing, but that's just not the case.  In reality the data shows they are actually just as effective and even more efficient.  It could be argued the other teams have too many cooks in the kitchen and should look to the Bengals as best practice.  That would be hard for some on her to believe!

[casear2727]

(02-03-2024, 01:02 PM)Daddy-O Wrote: Disturbing how?  There is no correlation that having more personnel in the front office equals more success.  Fact:  Since 2016 the Bengals have won as many playoff games (5) than the Ravens, Browns and Steelers combined (5).

If the Bengals had poor drafts and less success it would be disturbing, but that's just not the case.  In reality the data shows they are actually just as effective and even more efficient.  It could be argued the other teams have too many cooks in the kitchen and should look to the Bengals as best practice.  That would be hard for some on her to believe!

Those playoff games were in the last 3 years, you are super cherry picking here.  Where were the playoff wins the 31 YEARS prior to 2021 and Burrow? 

We also have not drafted a quality olineman in over a decade.  We could all go on for days with reasons why this is NOT good.  Give me many more cooks.

[sandwedge]

(02-03-2024, 02:11 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Those playoff games were in the last 3 years, you are super cherry picking here.  Where were the playoff wins the 31 YEARS prior to 2021 and Burrow? 

We also have not drafted a quality olineman in over a decade.  We could all go on for days with reasons why this is NOT good.  Give me many more cooks.

I am not totally in agreement with you or others here. For many years we picked pretty much in the top half of the 1st round. We drafted players that were consensus "top of the round players" by scouts and draft pundits. Some of those picks didn't pan out. My point is this, other teams would have picked these players if we hadn't. 
Let's not forget that in today's NFL, there is more going into the draft, more info, the way they scout.
 I am not buying into the notion that we need 20 more scouts to garner the same information from watching video of players that all 32 teams have. 

[casear2727]

(02-03-2024, 02:27 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I am not totally in agreement with you or others here. For many years we picked pretty much in the top half of the 1st round. We drafted players that were consensus "top of the round players" by scouts and draft pundits. Some of those picks didn't pan out. My point is this, other teams would have picked these players if we hadn't. 
Let's not forget that in today's NFL, there is more going into the draft, more info, the way they scout.
 I am not buying into the notion that we need 20 more scouts to garner the same information from watching video of players that all 32 teams have. 

Yeah, because having too few scouts is way better than having too many.

How about Jackson Carman?  Many teams were well aware of the rape allegations and requested info from the the police, many took him off their boards completely.  We did not request anything.  He was not a 1st rounder that dropped because of this, in fact we over-drafted him. How does that happen?

How many teams would have taken John Ross at #9?

We took Çhris Evans in the 6th and he had not been productive since 2017.  He had numerous issues at Michigan.

This makes zero sense to me.  Im not saying we need 30 people like other teams, but we only have 5.  Wee look like a poverty franchise and we look dumb defending it.  But thats just my opinion.

[Daddy-O]

(02-03-2024, 04:11 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Yeah, because having too few scouts is way better than having too many.

How about Jackson Carman?  Many teams were well aware of the rape allegations and requested info from the the police, many took him off their boards completely.  We did not request anything.  He was not a 1st rounder that dropped because of this, in fact we over-drafted him. How does that happen?

How many teams would have taken John Ross at #9?

We took Çhris Evans in the 6th and he had not been productive since 2017.  He had numerous issues at Michigan.

This makes zero sense to me.  Im not saying we need 30 people like other teams, but we only have 5.  Wee look like a poverty franchise and we look dumb defending it.  But thats just my opinion.

The rape allegations have zero to do with Jackson Carmen not panning out.  Teams miss on draft picks all the time, even those with 20 scouts.

John Ross was just pure stupidity and had Mike Brown written all over it.  I think those days are long gone as more recent drafts have gone really well - especially last year as every single pick ended up playing throughout the year.

Chris Evans was a 6th rounder.  What do you expect a home run?  Not a high percentage of 6th round picks become superstars.  He's played and has a few decent games under his belt.  That's about what you get with a 6th rounder typically.

A few more scouts would be nice but not sure it guarantees better performance on the field.  MB being out of the picture was addition by subtraction.