Bengals Defense - 4-3 or Nickel Base?

[Bengalbug]

Curious, i recall seeing where the bengals, like most teams, run a nickel base most often. Knowing the division we play in, does this make sense? I like Logan Wilson and I think Pratt is an ok 2 down player. But neither are that second level enforcer. Knowing the impact Roquan Smith had on the Ravens, do the bengals need to look at a free agent sideline to sideline MLB? Would this help our run defense? I’m not throwing shade at Wilson or Pratt, but would we better served bringing in someone that is an enforcer? We really don’t have that guy beyond the DL (Hendrickson).

Lovonta David (34) and Wagner (33) are both older vets, but maybe they would want to join a team. I personally believe the impact a player like that could bring would be well worth the investment. Obviously there are younger options in Free Agency, but I’m not sold that committing long years and dollars into the Lb position is the best play for this team, this year.

[Whatever]

(02-20-2024, 12:52 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Curious, i recall seeing where the bengals, like most teams, run a nickel base most often.  Knowing the division we play in, does this make sense?  I like Logan Wilson and I think Pratt is an ok 2 down player.  But neither are that second level enforcer.  Knowing the impact Roquan Smith had on the Ravens, do the bengals need to look at a free agent sideline to sideline MLB?  Would this help our run defense?  I’m not throwing shade at Wilson or Pratt, but would we better served bringing in someone that is an enforcer?  We really don’t have that guy beyond the DL (Hendrickson).  

Lovonta David (34) and Wagner (33) are both older vets, but maybe they would want to join a team.  I personally believe the impact a player like that could bring would be well worth the investment.   Obviously there are younger options in Free Agency, but I’m not sold that committing long years and dollars into the Lb position is the best play for this team, this year.

There's a reason why almost all NFL teams are a nickel base. It's because almost all teams are 11 base, on offense.  Offensive personnel dictates defensive personnel, not the other way around.  

[KillerGoose]

(02-20-2024, 12:52 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Curious, i recall seeing where the bengals, like most teams, run a nickel base most often.  Knowing the division we play in, does this make sense?  I like Logan Wilson and I think Pratt is an ok 2 down player.  But neither are that second level enforcer.  Knowing the impact Roquan Smith had on the Ravens, do the bengals need to look at a free agent sideline to sideline MLB?  Would this help our run defense?  I’m not throwing shade at Wilson or Pratt, but would we better served bringing in someone that is an enforcer?  We really don’t have that guy beyond the DL (Hendrickson).  

Lovonta David (34) and Wagner (33) are both older vets, but maybe they would want to join a team.  I personally believe the impact a player like that could bring would be well worth the investment.   Obviously there are younger options in Free Agency, but I’m not sold that committing long years and dollars into the Lb position is the best play for this team, this year.

The offensive personnel dictates the defensive personnel. In defensive terms, bases are usually described as the coverage preference. For instance, Cincinnati runs a cover three base. They play other coverages as well, such as cover one, two, six etc. but they are running cover three the most. However, Cincinnati does play quite a bit of two LB personnel even when the offense could allow them to bring an extra backer on. In these cases, they will often bring out an extra defensive linemen and run a 5-2 look or they will stay in their nickel package and play with Battle in the box. 

[dxdtdemon]

The Ravens, Steelers, Browns, and the NFC East teams spend the least time in 11 base, so using Akeem Davis-Gaither or someone like him more would help with this year's schedule.

[casear2727]

We play a true 4-3 vs the Ravens quite a bit. I have not paid as much attention vs the Steelers and Browns, but I would guess that we also play more 4-3 verses them than opponents outside of the division.

But Whatever is correct, the offense dictates the defense. Thus why we also run a 5-2 in short yardage & goalline vs most teams but not the Chiefs.

[Whatever]

It's getting a little silly, at this point. We were Top 10 in run D in '21 and '22 with the same DL, LB's, and scheme as this past year. Lou himself has said that communication issues with the back end negatively affected the LB play. But still, we get these "gotta draft 3 DT's" and "we should switch to a 4-3 base", threads.

[Bengalbug]

(02-20-2024, 01:51 PM)Whatever Wrote: It's getting a little silly, at this point. We were Top 10 in run D in '21 and '22 with the same DL, LB's, and scheme as this past year. Lou himself has said that communication issues with the back end negatively affected the LB play. But still, we get these "gotta draft 3 DT's" and "we should switch to a 4-3 base", threads.

Which begs the question, why such the drastic drop? Do you anticipate us returning to 21-22 form with what we currently have? We are slated to lose reader? Would a guy like a Bobby Wagner, who at 33 still playing at a high level not help?

Do you anticipate the young safeties being able to contribute more? It was a huge problem this year. 21-22 defense is getting further in the rear view mirror every day.

[Au165]

We play nickel because we are confident in Mike Hilton's tackling and blitzing ability. Even against bigger offensive personnel he does a really good job of sealing an edge and getting home on blitzes. We also run an extra safety down in the box often which technically has us in nickel but alignment is a little different from a traditional nickel.

[*bfine32*]

I would say this should play into the "Draft Sweat" debate. His biggest strength is occupying 2 blockers; therefore, allowing our LBs to make plays closer to the LOS in the running game.

[NATI BENGALS]

Edgerrin Cooper may very well be the best off ball linebacker in the draft.

If he makes it to our pick in the 2nd round. Might not be a bad idea to add a stud LB and actually use more 4-3 base D.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-20-2024, 07:27 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Edgerrin Cooper may very well be the best off ball linebacker in the draft.

If he makes it to our pick in the 2nd round. Might not be a bad idea to add a stud LB and actually use more 4-3 base D.

Not sure adding a coverage guy at LB is going to do much to help giving up 6/ypc on the ground.  However, the team DOES need a NT, so drafting a good one and signing a sturdy vet to bridge the gap would help a lot with slowing the bleeding in rush defense.  Part two of that will be the secondary being more settled and communicating more smoothly this season.

[sandwedge]

(02-20-2024, 06:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I would say this should play into the "Draft Sweat" debate. His biggest strength is occupying 2 blockers; therefore, allowing our LBs to make plays closer to the LOS in the running game.

And there is that.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

As Whatever said, it all depends on what the Offense is running to what we run to counter it. Communication issues were the problem with
the youth this last season and physicality up front against the run while our LB's were taking poor angles. DJ Reader and BJ Hill were the only
good DT's on the DL. Logan Wilson was hurt for a lot of the season and Germaine Pratt is not a 3 down LB'er clearly.

Not against adding a more athletic sideline to sideline LB'er that takes better angles in the run game, but I also think Logan can be this guy if
he is healthy and the communication should improve between the Safeties and the LB's this season. Add a run stopping NT and a pass rushing
DT and this Defense will be so much better. Sweat and we have been linked to be the best fit for Madubuike I saw just this morning.

I don't think we add another LB'er in FA after just paying Logan and Germaine decent dough.

[J24]

(02-20-2024, 08:17 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Not sure adding a coverage guy at LB is going to do much to help giving up 6/ypc on the ground.  However, the team DOES need a NT, so drafting a good one and signing a sturdy vet to bridge the gap would help a lot with slowing the bleeding in rush defense.  Part two of that will be the secondary being more settled and communicating more smoothly this season.

We also gave up the highest yards per passing attempt and most yards to TEs.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-21-2024, 07:21 PM)J24 Wrote: We also gave up the highest yards per passing attempt and most yards to TEs.

As has been regurgitated ad nauseum in here, losing both members of one of the top Safety duos in the league came with some consequences.  With our younger Safety duo getting a chance to mature and settle in, I feel like this will be a big bounce back year for the defense.  Communication will be much improved across the board, Battle will begin the year knowing full and well that he's the man, Dax Hill should be able to free range a lot better with CTB and whomever starts opposite of him.  Having the secondary settled will allow the LBs to just do their jobs, rather than be anxious about who's doing what behind them.

[J24]

(02-21-2024, 07:30 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: As has been regurgitated ad nauseum in here, losing both members of one of the top Safety duos in the league came with some consequences.  With our younger Safety duo getting a chance to mature and settle in, I feel like this will be a big bounce back year for the defense.  Communication will be much improved across the board, Battle will begin the year knowing full and well that he's the man, Dax Hill should be able to free range a lot better with CTB and whomever starts opposite of him.  Having the secondary settled will allow the LBs to just do their jobs, rather than be anxious about who's doing what behind them.

 Communication was an issue  no doubt but acting like that was the only issue last season is silly and that the defense will do 180 based solely off better communication is silly. We need to improve in a lot of areas of the defense from pass rush, run defense, and pass coverage. Every unit on  defense needs to be properly scrutinized! 

[SunsetBengal]

(02-21-2024, 07:46 PM)J24 Wrote:  Communication was an issue  no doubt but acting like that was the only issue last season is silly and that the defense will do 180 based solely off better communication is silly. We need to improve in a lot of areas of the defense from pass rush, run defense, and pass coverage. Every unit on  defense needs to be properly scrutinized! 

Improved communication leads to being in the right spot at the right time to proactively make a play. They have drafted some tremendous athletes to restock the secondary, it's going to be really fun watching them come into their own this year.  I agree that every component of the defensive unit needs to be scrutinized, but there were easily understood reasons for many of the issues with defense last season.  On the DL, Hill and Hendrickson had career years in pass rushing, losing Reader and having Hubbard out and then back playing injured really did a number on the run defense when we needed it most.  As I explained previously, the LBs were in turmoil over what to do on many occasions, simply from not being sure of who had what covered behind them.

Yes, it's really easy to point at a stat sheet and say "we've got issues here", but the thing to do is look at the entire group and see where the problems were and decide if some things will take care of themselves or if personnel changes need to be made.  Right now, I'm counting on Hubbard coming back strong to play out his contract, that would leave Reader and Awuzie as the only starting players needing replaced.

[Hammerstripes]

(02-20-2024, 12:52 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Curious, i recall seeing where the bengals, like most teams, run a nickel base most often.  Knowing the division we play in, does this make sense?  I like Logan Wilson and I think Pratt is an ok 2 down player.  But neither are that second level enforcer.  Knowing the impact Roquan Smith had on the Ravens, do the bengals need to look at a free agent sideline to sideline MLB?  Would this help our run defense?  I’m not throwing shade at Wilson or Pratt, but would we better served bringing in someone that is an enforcer?  We really don’t have that guy beyond the DL (Hendrickson).  

Lovonta David (34) and Wagner (33) are both older vets, but maybe they would want to join a team.  I personally believe the impact a player like that could bring would be well worth the investment.   Obviously there are younger options in Free Agency, but I’m not sold that committing long years and dollars into the Lb position is the best play for this team, this year.

Ask yourself - would you want a LB or CB covering a WR.  That's really what it boils down to.

As for Roquan, there are several guys on that defense that make his life a lot easier. 

[Bengalbug]

(02-21-2024, 08:12 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Ask yourself - would you want a LB or CB covering a WR.  That's really what it boils down to.

As for Roquan, there are several guys on that defense that make his life a lot easier. 

lol… as if we only run in nickel when the other offense has 3 WR. Ask yourself this, do you want Mike Hilton taking on a FB or 2nd TE?

This really boils down to, could we look to improve the Lb spot. We really need a leader on defense. Who would you say the leader of the defense is going into 2024?

As for Roquan, their defense was mediocre in 2022 before trading for him, and has been at or near the best defense since his arrival.

[J24]

(02-21-2024, 08:01 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Improved communication leads to being in the right spot at the right time to proactively make a play. They have drafted some tremendous athletes to restock the secondary, it's going to be really fun watching them come into their own this year.  I agree that every component of the defensive unit needs to be scrutinized, but there were easily understood reasons for many of the issues with defense last season.  On the DL, Hill and Hendrickson had career years in pass rushing, losing Reader and having Hubbard out and then back playing injured really did a number on the run defense when we needed it most.  As I explained previously, the LBs were in turmoil over what to do on many occasions, simply from not being sure of who had what covered behind them.

Yes, it's really easy to point at a stat sheet and say "we've got issues here", but the thing to do is look at the entire group and see where the problems were and decide if some things will take care of themselves or if personnel changes need to be made.  Right now, I'm counting on Hubbard coming back strong to play out his contract, that would leave Reader and Awuzie as the only starting players needing replaced.

So it was communication when Logan got beat to the edge by Mason Rudolph or was it lack of speed? Was it communication when Hill tackled Turner on an 80 yard touchdown pass or a terrible angle ? Was it miss communication when Dax missed two of the easiest Interceptions in the 2nd Browns game or poor ball skills?

Let's put it this way; our division has 4 excellent TEs getting a LB or big safety in free agency or via the draft thats capable of  covering TEs in man to man situations would be a nice addition to the roster.