Veteran Safety being considered

[phil413]

(03-01-2024, 09:46 PM)J24 Wrote: We're a majority single High team; if we suck at that position it's going to really hurt our defense. So investing in that position shouldn't be frowned upon. 

Simply put and so true.  The staff has pointed out multiple times they have to communicate back there.  We can't confuse Hill's draft position with thinking it forces him to start at FS.  The quickest route towards "communication" is an experienced vet. That doesn't mean we have to cut Hilton and force Hill to replace another starter. Just because they want a vet safety doesn't mean they're spending big bucks to do so.

[pulses]

(03-02-2024, 02:17 PM)phil413 Wrote: Simply put and so true.  The staff has pointed out multiple times they have to communicate back there.  We can't confuse Hill's draft position with thinking it forces him to start at FS.  The quickest route towards "communication" is an experienced vet. That doesn't mean we have to cut Hilton and force Hill to replace another starter. Just because they want a vet safety doesn't mean they're spending big bucks to do so.

Sign Geno Stone and put Dax at the nickel and be done with it.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(03-02-2024, 10:39 AM)lone bengal Wrote: Trying to make sense of this they obviously don’t trust Hill or Battle ? It’s now or never for Hill entering year 3. Far as Hill to CB talk I know he’s not an outside CB and Hilton is the slot replacing him now makes your secondary even more inexperienced and if anything they probably kick Turner inside when Hilton’s contract is up. If you sign a good vet to play along side Hill I guess you view Battle as only a 3rd Safety? He played well and getting less playing time in year two means he’s not in your future plans as a starter? I know they missed Flowers in 3 safety looks and I was like maybe Lou wants to get back to that ? But I feel like we can’t stop anybody up front and are division is more geared towards stopping the running and your in less 3 safety looks.

The staff already publicly said some of the poor LB play/run D issues was due to tentative play/not trusting the S calls on D. So getting a vet back there helps the run D from jump. It does not have to be in a 3 S set. 

There is no way we are cutting Hilton. Outside of Trey & Reader, he was our best Defensive starter last season and is one of the best nickel corners in the league. 

There is no way we are not over the moon thrilled with Battle. He will start this year. 100%. In fact, he graded out (PFF) higher than everyone on the team save for Hendrickson & Chase. Though only for half a season vs full. If you want to call that a starter, then Hilton drops to #4 on D.

We are looking for a vet S to replace Scott and QB the D. Who will likely start, paired with Battle. Remember to subtract $2 mil from whatever the vet S signs for. 

Hill will likely be a nickel CB/3rd S in big Dime, which we will allow him to be close to the LOS, blitz more, and cover TEs. We looked at his speed and versatility and tried to turn him into something he isn't, a CF high safety. Maybe he can get there someday, but for a contender, too many mistakes. Let him do what he is already good at. 

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(03-02-2024, 12:10 AM)sandwedge Wrote: Why do you think that will be a problem?

What, getting impact guys to come here? 

I just don't think there will be that many to actually hit FA at spots we need. I mean, we can get guys to come. But guys who really move the needle? I'd be ecstatic with Reader + 1. We can easily afford that. Reader +2 seems VERY unlikely but could be done with some restructures or cutting Mixon. Reader + 3 would be unaffordable. But SUPER unlikely. I think paying guys like Fant & Eluemunor $15 mil total is far more likely. Unfortunately. Or Boyd & Chido.

Don't get me wrong. An average/mediocre starter type player is necessary at many spots. It can represent an upgrade or provide needed depth. Karras & Cappa are fine. BJ Hill. I'd rather have 2 studs at $15 mil than 3 Cappas at $10. Or one stud at $20 and one Cappa.

I don't see one needle mover at OT outside of Onwenu, and I will be pretty surprised if the Pats let him escape with $100 mil in cap space. 

The only real imact NT is Reader. I do expect him back. 

The only real impact DT I see hitting the market is L. Williams. Assuming we sign him, and Reader, we still have $20 mil or so to play with. I think it is all Cappas from here.

I do not see a FA TE I'd pay big money for. Especially in our offense. Dalton Schultz is closest. But he is a Cappa. I'd rather use a Day 2 pick, save the $$, and try for a needle mover at another spot.

I think the chances we pay anything close to big $$ on a FA WR is close to nil given the price on Chase/Tee and a strong draft class.

I don't think any of the needle movers/shutdown guys at CB actually hit the market (Johnson, Sneed, etc). And again, strong draft class. And unless you are paying/drafting a shutdown corner, this is likely CB4 for us. Not paying big for that.

Reader + L. Williams + another big time FA (Onwenu, Winfield, etc) would start to max us out. But we could just restructure a couple guys (or Burrow) or bite the bullet on Mixon. 

For most teams, having the space does not equate to signing elite FAs. Your own guys are far more likely. And you usually overpay for those. A bird in hand and all.

But I think a scenario where elite guys are availabe & want to come here but we don't sign them becausexee are out of cap is SUPER unlikely. We'll end up with mostly Cappa/Karras types.

Hell, a Karras type at FS is a huge upgrade over Scott/Hill. Ditto TE over Irv. 

[lone bengal]

(03-02-2024, 07:07 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: The staff already publicly said some of the poor LB play/run D issues was due to tentative play/not trusting the S calls on D. So getting a vet back there helps the run D from jump. It does not have to be in a 3 S set. 

There is no way we are cutting Hilton. Outside of Trey & Reader, he was our best Defensive starter last season and is one of the best nickel corners in the league. 

There is no way we are not over the moon thrilled with Battle. He will start this year. 100%. In fact, he graded out (PFF) higher than everyone on the team save for Hendrickson & Chase. Though only for half a season vs full. If you want to call that a starter, then Hilton drops to #4 on D.

We are looking for a vet S to replace Scott and QB the D. Who will likely start, paired with Battle. Remember to subtract $2 mil from whatever the vet S signs for. 

Hill will likely be a nickel CB/3rd S in big Dime, which we will allow him to be close to the LOS, blitz more, and cover TEs. We looked at his speed and versatility and tried to turn him into something he isn't, a CF high safety. Maybe he can get there someday, but for a contender, too many mistakes. Let him do what he is already good at. 

Appreciate the detailed response you answered my question, they don’t trust Dax Hill. Never a good sign when a 1st round pick can’t start in year 3 which was my fear. With Burrow and Chase making big money in the future we need to start hitting on draft picks which Kanas City did a good job of. We have nothing at DT outside of Hill, Hopefully Murphy can improve at DE and Turner at CB. If we can’t figure out a long term deal for Higgins and with Boyd walking we need to address receiver, and that also leaves us with questions at TE and RT long term. Need some youth on the interior O-line as well not sure Volson the answer at LG.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(03-02-2024, 09:07 PM)lone bengal Wrote: Appreciate the detailed response you answered my question, they don’t trust Dax Hill. Never a good sign when a 1st round pick can’t start in year 3 which was my fear. With Burrow and Chase making big money in the future we need to start hitting on draft picks which Kanas City did a good job of. We have nothing at DT outside of Hill, Hopefully Murphy can improve at DE and Turner at CB.  If we can’t figure out a long term deal for Higgins and with Boyd walking we need to address receiver, and that also leaves us with questions at TE and RT long term. Need some youth on the interior O-line as well not sure Volson the answer at LG.

I don't think they trust him at FS. SS? As an LB in dime?. Or nickel corner. Or manning up TEs? Yes. 

[lone bengal]

(03-02-2024, 09:49 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I don't think they trust him at FS. SS? As an LB in dime?. Or nickel corner. Or manning up TEs? Yes. 

Unfortunately very disappointing if true. A first round pick in his 3rd season and just a part time role player. I’ll pray tonight for Myles Murphy lol.

[NATI BENGALS]

I don't think we are looking for a starter. We need a good vet in the room. Michael Thomas is a good dude. But he doesn't qualify as quality depth anymore.

I'm excited about going into the year with a starting secondary that is CTB, Dax, Battle, DJ and Hilton as the nickel.

But we've only got 7 healthy games out of Tycen Anderson in two seasons and Scott is a cut candidate. A good vet to bolster our S depth makes a ton of sense to me.

[Housh]

(03-01-2024, 10:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We save $6.4 Mil in cutting Hilton, we do that and CTB w/ his 21 NFL starts is our "vet" in the backfield. I think we can sign a vet SS/FS  and Lou still has plenty young guys to develop 

Why would you cut a top 5 slot CB in the league if not top 2?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-02-2024, 10:22 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I don't think we are looking for a starter. We need a good vet in the room. Michael Thomas is a good dude. But he doesn't qualify as quality depth anymore.

I'm excited about going into the year with a starting secondary that is CTB, Dax, Battle, DJ and Hilton as the nickel.

But we've only got 7 healthy games out of Tycen Anderson in two seasons and Scott is a cut candidate. A good vet to bolster our S depth makes a ton of sense to me.

Why not work out a trade with Denver for Justin Simmons? he's in a contract year and they need cap relief (assuming they cut Wilson). We could handle his 1 year and maybe even get him a new multi year contract that way we'd have that spot locked for a few years? 

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(03-02-2024, 10:22 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I don't think we are looking for a starter. We need a good vet in the room. Michael Thomas is a good dude. But he doesn't qualify as quality depth anymore.

I'm excited about going into the year with a starting secondary that is CTB, Dax, Battle, DJ and Hilton as the nickel.

But we've only got 7 healthy games out of Tycen Anderson in two seasons and Scott is a cut candidate. A good vet to bolster our S depth makes a ton of sense to me.

I do think we want a starter. A guy who can help Battle, Hill, and Anderson. A guy in whom the LBs are confident is getting the call right. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Quandre Diggs would be a good move for us IMO.

I also still wouldn't mind adding Byard either who is a solid vet.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(03-05-2024, 06:56 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Quandre Diggs would be a good move for us IMO.

I also still wouldn't mind adding Byard either who is a solid vet.

There are a LOT of FA vet safeties out there. I think a Scott upgrade is incoming. 

[*bfine32*]

I see where Jags fans are not happy they cut Rayshawn Jenkins

[casear2727]

(03-01-2024, 06:58 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Or maybe try to pull Vonn Bell back with a trade.

Bell is simply an older Battle, doesnt really solve our need for a FS.

(03-01-2024, 07:44 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This is what the coaches meant when talking about Dax playing Corner, they weren't talking about boundary Corner.
Use Daxton Hill like the Ravens use Kyle Hamilton.

Hamilton was basically the Ravens slot CB in dime situations and SS in in nickel. 

(03-01-2024, 10:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We save $6.4 Mil in cutting Hilton, we do that and CTB w/ his 21 NFL starts is our "vet" in the backfield. I think we can sign a vet SS/FS  and Lou still has plenty young guys to develop 

Lou's comments at the combine regarding Hilton would leave me to believe that cutting Mike isnt even a consideration.

(03-01-2024, 11:47 PM)puddycat Wrote: I agree that we need a veteran presence in the unit, but if we are replacing Scott then we are looking for more of a SS than FS, which leaves Dax and Tycen playing centerfield.  I'm not sure we have addressed the possible problem in Dax' development.
Mike Hilton is one of the best slot corners in the league.  Him rotating back to FS is an admission of weakness at centerfield.

Scott played primarily at FS, though he may be a better SS. Any Safety we bring in would be for FS purposes.

Dax actually had a better stat line in his 1st year starting than Bates did in 2021.  His development seems to be ok physically, but lacking experience or lacking the required thought process.

[casear2727]

(03-02-2024, 05:54 PM)pulses Wrote: Sign Geno Stone and put Dax at the nickel and be done with it.

So you are benching Hilton?  Or playing Dax only in dime coverage?

[*ochocincos*]

(03-06-2024, 12:58 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Bell is simply an older Battle, doesnt really solve our need for a FS.

How much of a NEED is it really though?

I personally think bailing on Hill already is going to do more harm for him than good.
There isn't a spot for him to get a good amount of snaps otherwise currently, as Hilton is covering slot and Battle covering SS.

What I think they ultimately need is a veteran backup at FS who can maybe help Hill while Hill continues to get the majority of snaps at FS.

Maybe a cheap old veteran like Amos or Gipson that could be ok if delegated to part-time player or backup?
Amos played >300 defensive snaps for HOU and was solid, but he wasn't a true starter. Amos is about to turn 31 years old next month.
Gipson was even better, playing almost 1000 defensive snaps last year with SF and the full-year starter, but he's also gonna turn 34 in August. He may not want to serve as a backup though, but he has played for rather cheap since 2020 ($3.2 mill and less each season).

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(03-06-2024, 01:03 PM)casear2727 Wrote: So you are benching Hilton?  Or playing Dax only in dime coverage?

I cannot speak for others, but Hill would not start in my scenario. 

CB: CTB, Turner, Hilton. 
S: Battle + vet FS. 

We still need another boundary corner (Lou says you need 3 and we have 2), and that player will take some dime snaps. But primarily Hill would be DB6 in big dime or sub in for Pratt or Wilson to effectively be a LB vs pass happy teams. Wilson & Pratt played like 90% of the snaps each last year, that number needs to come down some. Especially on 3rd down & long/medium.

Now, I'd still want Dax to play some FS. That is where I want him eventually. If we get into a blowout/game over situation, I give him reps back there and rest my vet. 

I do not think we spend BIG on a vet S. McKinney or Adams or CGJ are not coming. But we might go next tier, depending on how FA goes & how much $$ we have left. 

If you assume RT at #18, & therefore no big FA $$ at OT (big IF), plug in $17-$25 mil at DT (Williams or Wilkins) + Reader, say $25-$33 mil total. That would leave between $11-$19 mil to go shopping to plug holes at FS, CB4, TE, & WR3. If you assume Scott is cut, $13-$21. If we can fill 2 of those holes in FA, then we can go RT + the other 2 with our first 3 picks. Day 3 would be P, another nose, IOL depth, RB, LB, +1. 

That is my basic scheme for FA. It gives up the ghost on drafting Bowers, but other than that I like it. Now, if you think you can fill a hole Rd4, or if you think Williams vs Wilkins is a wash, or you let Reader walk, and/or we generate more space through some cuts/restructures, then maybe Onwenu is in play. 

Best case: Williams for $17 Y1, Reader in Y1 for $5, Onwenu for $17 Y1 would be $39 mil. We'd have $5 mil for a vet S, $7 if you cut Scott. That is kinda wildly optimistic, and closer to the cap than we usually tread. I think we'd need some cuts/restructures. Wilkins/Jones makes it virtually impossible. A high quality G (Hunt, Risner, etc) might be cheaper than Onwenu. But that locks us into OT at 18. No Bowers. 

Now, say we go: DT, Reader, vet S, Eluemunor in FA. I think we can JUST afford it. That opens up Bowers at #18. I cannot stress how unlikely I think that is. But we could also then trade back & be more comfortable with Mims/Guyton easing in, and get an extra Day 2 pick if Fuaga/Latham are gone. 

For me, I prioritize the elite/near elite DT (Jones, Wilkins, Williams) + elite run stopper (Reader) and the vet S in FA. My starting playoff D is locked in and improved. 

I still need RT, TE1, WR3, and CB4. If I can generate enough to get a serious (Onwenu, Smith) or moderate (Brown, Eluemunor) RT fix I think hard on it. Or a G upgrade. The OT, WR, CB classes are excellent. TE decent at Rd3 (Stover, Sinnott, Johnson). 










 

[schroomytunes]

I do think we need to add a more seasoned vet to this group, just not sure where the bengals are headed so here are 2 guys I could see as a fit:

Long term- Alohi Gilman-FS (Chargers) only 26 would be a solid get and solidifies the position w Battle for a while, moving Dax around the Defense. probably a 4yr/ 32 million deal.

Short term- Adrian Amos-FS/SS- (Texans) older 31, solid in a part-time role does give us a vet presence to allow dax to further develop and float more on passing downs, shouldnt cost too much on a 2 year deal.

[casear2727]

(03-06-2024, 01:21 PM)ochocincos Wrote: How much of a NEED is it really though?

I personally think bailing on Hill already is going to do more harm for him than good.
There isn't a spot for him to get a good amount of snaps otherwise currently, as Hilton is covering slot and Battle covering SS.

What I think they ultimately need is a veteran backup at FS who can maybe help Hill while Hill continues to get the majority of snaps at FS.

Maybe a cheap old veteran like Amos or Gipson that could be ok if delegated to part-time player or backup?
Amos played >300 defensive snaps for HOU and was solid, but he wasn't a true starter. Amos is about to turn 31 years old next month.
Gipson was even better, playing almost 1000 defensive snaps last year with SF and the full-year starter, but he's also gonna turn 34 in August. He may not want to serve as a backup though, but he has played for rather cheap since 2020 ($3.2 mill and less each season).

I dont disagree, especially with Hilton still on the roster. Dax is an every down player IMHO.

(03-06-2024, 01:25 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I cannot speak for others, but Hill would not start in my scenario. 

CB: CTB, Turner, Hilton. 
S: Battle + vet FS. 

We still need another boundary corner (Lou says you need 3 and we have 2), and that player will take some dime snaps. But primarily Hill would be DB6 in big dime or sub in for Pratt or Wilson to effectively be a LB vs pass happy teams. Wilson & Pratt played like 90% of the snaps each last year, that number needs to come down some. Especially on 3rd down & long/medium.

Now, I'd still want Dax to play some FS. That is where I want him eventually. If we get into a blowout/game over situation, I give him reps back there and rest my vet. 

 

Unpopular opinion, I think Dax could be a better NCB than Hilton. Good team like KC have been targeting Hilton in the passing game for a couple of years now.