Bengals Cap Management

[Soonerpeace]

(03-16-2024, 03:23 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: So, your answer is to trade a very good starting WR, lose our slot receiver and find replacements in the draft.

I don't want to have to find one starter in the draft. I want those drafted to beat out a player on our roster to start.

Irwin or Jonah hopefully replaces Boyd. We trade Higgins and creates a huge hole at WR2. The draft can be a crap shoot, we all know that and not just for us, but most teams. 

I have not seen the Reader contract, but he is guy coming off an injury. I wish him well, but I am glad Bengals are cautious with 30-year-old vet seeking lot of guaranteed money. 

I love DJ, but his pass rushing skills were almost non-existant. 

I was definitely on the tag Tee train but have switched granted in hindsight. But it doesn’t sound like it’s going to work out. Absolutely agree losing Tee and Boyd not ideal. But not getting anything for Tee worse. For weeks I was opposed but I thought he wouldn’t be a distraction. I’m leary. Lots of good receivers in this draft. Getting Bowers or Odunze on a rookie deal works. Maybe moving up in the draft in round 1 and 2 gets us future stars on rookie deals. I think we could have traded Browning and Tee and moved up in both rounds

[007BengalsFan]

(03-16-2024, 04:37 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: hmmm... this is over the top

Chris Jones, Heyward, Donald, and 2 DT's Pierce and the one they signed to long term contract say otherwise.

You are also speaking of a health DJ, and younger DJ.

I wanted him back, but he has not been available due to injury also. Do you think DJ all of sudden stays healthy and available every game???

I really like DJ, but I trust our FO and coaching staff to build the best roster they can. One guy is never the key to a great roster, it is many guys who play a role. 

Reader was injured in the 2020 season and came back the next year in 2021 to help us get the the Super Bowl.  He then followed that up by helping us get to the AFC Championship game in 2022.  He had season ending injuries is 2020 and 2023.  Guess who also had season ending injuries in 2020 and 2023?  Is anybody saying we shouldnt count on Joe Burrow because he might have another season injury?  yet people say we cant rely on Reader.

[Soonerpeace]

(03-16-2024, 04:37 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: hmmm... this is over the top

Chris Jones, Heyward, Donald, and 2 DT's Pierce and the one they signed to long term contract say otherwise.

You are also speaking of a health DJ, and younger DJ.

I wanted him back, but he has not been available due to injury also. Do you think DJ all of sudden stays healthy and available every game???

I really like DJ, but I trust our FO and coaching staff to build the best roster they can. One guy is never the key to a great roster, it is many guys who play a role. 

You are right those guys in combo rush & pass are more disruptive. But Chris Jones and Aaron Donald not better in blowing up the pocket or backfield. Nobody can block D J by themselves in the run game. He can’t be moved.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-16-2024, 03:06 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Everyone else is more creative. What is the end result? Bengals have one of the best playoff and regular season records the past 3 years. 

So, name every team that has had more success with their creativity the past 3 years. I assume you say all since that was what you said in this post. 

One sudden peak that's decreased every year is not enough to say you've blazed your own more successful path.

You expand that to 4 or 5 years or shorten it to 2 or 1 years, and the narrative falls apart. At that point it is more saying "we were really good in 2021 for the first time in 30 years, so we are right".

[Luvnit2]

(03-16-2024, 05:07 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Reader was injured in the 2020 season and came back the next year in 2021 to help us get the the Super Bowl.  He then followed that up by helping us get to the AFC Championship game in 2022.  He had season ending injuries is 2020 and 2023.  Guess who also had season ending injuries in 2020 and 2023?  Is anybody saying we shouldnt count on Joe Burrow because he might have another season injury?  yet people say we cant rely on Reader.

True, Joe was injured. Reader is on wrong side of 30 and plays a violent position. Do we make the Super Bowl if no Burrow, but have Reader? Could we make it without DJ and have Burrow?

Tell me who has more impact. A franchise QB or a very good DL in the league for a long time and never made the pro bowl. Again, I love Reader, but lots of more complete DT's than Reader.

[Luvnit2]

(03-16-2024, 05:36 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: One sudden peak that's decreased every year is not enough to say you've blazed your own more successful path.

You expand that to 4 or 5 years or shorten it to 2 or 1 years, and the narrative falls apart. At that point it is more saying "we were really good in 2021 for the first time in 30 years, so we are right".

Why would discuss a Bengal's FO ran by Mike Brown when we know Duke and Katie run the FO now.

You can continue to be down on our FO, but the Bengals led by Joe Burrow have a shot at making the Super Bowl every year. When have we been able to say that with a straight face under Mike Brown's leadership? They have invested in the defense with Trey, Hilton, Pratt, Wilson, Hill and Hubbard and Reader until 2024. Sorry, I trust them and not you with making roster decisions to appease fans fears and anxiety. My guess is Bengals will sell out again in 2024, bad rosters don't sell out stadiums, we know first hand from experience. 

Bengals are like any team built around a franchise QB, the QB has to stay healthy. The 49ers are built around a great OL and great defense and a game managing QB who makes peanuts allowing them to keep pumping money into other players. But they are a lot like the Bengals, got to Super Bowl 2X, but no SB wins because of this guy named Mahomes. 

[007BengalsFan]

(03-16-2024, 05:46 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: True, Joe was injured. Reader is on wrong side of 30 and plays a violent position. Do we make the Super Bowl if no Burrow, but have Reader? Could we make it without DJ and have Burrow?

Tell me who has more impact. A franchise QB or a very good DL in the league for a long time and never made the pro bowl. Again, I love Reader, but lots of more complete DT's than Reader.

We wouldnt have made it to the Super Bowl without Reader.  We wouldnt have made it to the Super Bowl without Burrow.  Both were important.  QB is generally the most important position on the roster and that is why those guys get paid the most money.   But, lets get real here. In all the playoff games we have played, Burrow has hit the 300 yard mark just once and he has never thrown a single TD in the 4th quarter in any of those games, not one.  As I pointed out in another thread, the defense is what carried us.  Burrow is not Mahomes but even Mahomes needs help.  The defense is what carried KC last year.  If Mahomes doesnt have Chris Jones, he doesnt win the Super Bowl last year.  Mahomes is the single most important piece but they dont win it all without Chris Jones on that team.

[Soonerpeace]

(03-16-2024, 06:12 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: We wouldnt have made it to the Super Bowl without Reader.  We wouldnt have made it to the Super Bowl without Burrow.  Both were important.  QB is generally the most important position on the roster and that is why those guys get paid the most money.   But, lets get real here. In all the playoff games we have played, Burrow has hit the 300 yard mark just once and he has never thrown a single TD in the 4th quarter in any of those games, not one.  As I pointed out in another thread, the defense is what carried us.  Burrow is not Mahomes but even Mahomes needs help.  The defense is what carried KC last year.  If Mahomes doesnt have Chris Jones, he doesnt win the Super Bowl last year.  Mahomes is the single most important piece but they dont win it all without Chris Jones on that team.

Fantastic post.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-16-2024, 05:54 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Why would discuss a Bengal's FO ran by Mike Brown when we know Duke and Katie run the FO now.

You can continue to be down on our FO, but the Bengals led by Joe Burrow have a shot at making the Super Bowl every year. When have we been able to say that with a straight face under Mike Brown's leadership? They have invested in the defense with Trey, Hilton, Pratt, Wilson, Hill and Hubbard and Reader until 2024. Sorry, I trust them and not you with making roster decisions to appease fans fears and anxiety. My guess is Bengals will sell out again in 2024, bad rosters don't sell out stadiums, we know first hand from experience. 

Bengals are like any team built around a franchise QB, the QB has to stay healthy. The 49ers are built around a great OL and great defense and a game managing QB who makes peanuts allowing them to keep pumping money into other players. But they are a lot like the Bengals, got to Super Bowl 2X, but no SB wins because of this guy named Mahomes. 

Until Mike Brown calls up the Piano Man and decides to use our 2nd round pick on Carman. (The same year we went to the SB, so Mike clearly wasn't out of the FO then.)

There's been huge improvements, and certainly Katie is more in charge now, but until he's dead, he'll never stop running the FO at least a little. He will always have that final word whenever he wants it. It's why we still don't have a GM and Tobin is just the Director of Player Personnel.

The 49ers are not like the Bengals. They have been to the NFCC in 4 of the last 5 seasons and are constantly making moves to get new guys at cheaper prices and collecting picks to trade picks. We got Zack Moss, they got Christian McCaffrey. We're on our 4th different starting TE in 4 years and almost certainly will have #5 next year. They are also a very well run FO.

Our FO has certainly made strides from the Marvin era, but the second we sit on our laurels for making and losing a SB a couple years ago is when it's over.

[Soonerpeace]

(03-16-2024, 06:18 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Until Mike Brown calls up the Piano Man and decides to use our 2nd round pick on Carman. (The same year we went to the SB, so Mike clearly wasn't out of the FO then.)

There's been huge improvements, and certainly Katie is more in charge now, but until he's dead, he'll never stop running the FO at least a little. He will always have that final word whenever he wants it. It's why we still don't have a GM and Tobin is just the Director of Player Personnel.

The 49ers are not like the Bengals. They have been to the NFCC in 4 of the last 5 seasons and are constantly making moves to get new guys at cheaper prices and collecting picks to trade picks. We got Zack Moss, they got Christian McCaffrey. We're on our 4th different starting TE in 4 years and almost certainly will have #5 next year. They are also a very well run FO.

Our FO has certainly made strides from the Marvin era, but the second we sit on our laurels for making and losing a SB a couple years ago is when it's over.

Fair

[SunsetBengal]

(03-16-2024, 05:54 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Why would discuss a Bengal's FO ran by Mike Brown when we know Duke and Katie run the FO now.

You can continue to be down on our FO, but the Bengals led by Joe Burrow have a shot at making the Super Bowl every year. When have we been able to say that with a straight face under Mike Brown's leadership? They have invested in the defense with Trey, Hilton, Pratt, Wilson, Hill and Hubbard and Reader until 2024. Sorry, I trust them and not you with making roster decisions to appease fans fears and anxiety. My guess is Bengals will sell out again in 2024, bad rosters don't sell out stadiums, we know first hand from experience. 

Bengals are like any team built around a franchise QB, the QB has to stay healthy. The 49ers are built around a great OL and great defense and a game managing QB who makes peanuts allowing them to keep pumping money into other players. But they are a lot like the Bengals, got to Super Bowl 2X, but no SB wins because of this guy named Mahomes. 

The Bengals still have a ways to go before we can trust that they're operating to the maximum ability of cap manipulation in order to add talent to a team that is just a few players away from being back in the Superbowl.  So far, they have waded into the shallow end of modernism by actually taking active part in free agency, but as we saw this season they can still be quite passive with it.  Seems like most of the players that many of us had hopes that the team would compete for were agreed to terms within the first few hours of the "legal tampering" period. Sure, now they're beginning to make a cut or two to free up a little space, but they haven't even touched the idea of restructuring to get more space to load up for a "Win or die trying" type of season.

And that is sad, because we have a genuine franchise QB, along with a few cornerstone players to back him up.  We needed to add just 2 or 3 key players to have confidence heading into the draft without and "needs" and boldly stepping into the next season.

[Soonerpeace]

(03-16-2024, 06:18 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Until Mike Brown calls up the Piano Man and decides to use our 2nd round pick on Carman. (The same year we went to the SB, so Mike clearly wasn't out of the FO then.)

There's been huge improvements, and certainly Katie is more in charge now, but until he's dead, he'll never stop running the FO at least a little. He will always have that final word whenever he wants it. It's why we still don't have a GM and Tobin is just the Director of Player Personnel.

The 49ers are not like the Bengals. They have been to the NFCC in 4 of the last 5 seasons and are constantly making moves to get new guys at cheaper prices and collecting picks to trade picks. We got Zack Moss, they got Christian McCaffrey. We're on our 4th different starting TE in 4 years and almost certainly will have #5 next year. They are also a very well run FO.

Our FO has certainly made strides from the Marvin era, but the second we sit on our laurels for making and losing a SB a couple years ago is when it's over.

Fair

[Luvnit2]

I hear what most of you are saying about trust. I have more Trust in a Zac led team with Katie and Tobin handling our roster and cap. Call Tobin whatever title you choose, but he is our GM and Katie is our cap manager. The team spends money and reinvests it back into the roster if they have an excess cap.

As far as talent, right now I see 2 glaring holes during first week of FA (we are only 5 days in so far) on the roster.

RT
DT

I see minor issues at CB, we have starters Turner (needs to get better in 2024 as do a lot of players), Britt outside with Hilton at the slot. I trust the FO to address RT, DT and possibly CB prior to the draft. Then use the draft to add depth and future starters, just not rookie starters.


It was common during the Mike Brown run years to need 2 or 3 plug and play draft picks. I have not seen that for years.

I trust Zac, Burrow and the FO, I understand why others do not.

[CottonHill]

(03-16-2024, 06:18 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Until Mike Brown calls up the Piano Man and decides to use our 2nd round pick on Carman. (The same year we went to the SB, so Mike clearly wasn't out of the FO then.)

There's been huge improvements, and certainly Katie is more in charge now, but until he's dead, he'll never stop running the FO at least a little. He will always have that final word whenever he wants it. It's why we still don't have a GM and Tobin is just the Director of Player Personnel.

The 49ers are not like the Bengals. They have been to the NFCC in 4 of the last 5 seasons and are constantly making moves to get new guys at cheaper prices and collecting picks to trade picks. We got Zack Moss, they got Christian McCaffrey. We're on our 4th different starting TE in 4 years and almost certainly will have #5 next year. They are also a very well run FO.

Our FO has certainly made strides from the Marvin era, but the second we sit on our laurels for making and losing a SB a couple years ago is when it's over.

I agree with your post but I will say the Niners probably cost themselves at least one ring with the worst trade of this millennium. The assets they gave up to take Lance was inexcusable when you look at how inexperienced he was. I laid it out on a Niner board how bad that was going to be the minute he was drafted.
The pick was made by Lynvh and Shannahan and if they had t hit on Purdy one if them would’ve been fired.
Just crazy bad move from a FO who has Ben really really good. Although they did waste two 3rds in consecutive drafts on RBs they have cut already.

[Mike M (the other one)]

Every team has a couple of weaknesses that can prevent them from winning the SB or even getting to it.

We are no different, just cause they haven't ran out and signed who YOU wanted, doesn't mean they don't have a plan.

Have we missed on some opportunities? yes, have we hit on some? yes.

It's a mixed bag and we will get what we need to keep us as contenders. Hitting in the draft will go a long ways, so we need prioritize that, more scouts or what ever we need to make sure we are doing a better job there. No more taking advice from Piano man.

[THE PISTONS]

Bengals never do it, but they could have easily created $4.25M in Cap Space in 2024 by this roster bonus conversion into a signing bonus + restructure of his 2014 base salary

Alternatively, they could have merely reclassified today's $3M roster bonus into a SB & saved $2M in Cap https://t.co/cUyzJNE9xD

— Andre Perrotta (@andreperrotta13) March 18, 2024

[THE PISTONS]

Even though the Bengals are in good Cap health, they should restructure Orlando Brown Jr.'s 2024 cash allocation, which would create an extra $4.25M in 2024 Cap space.

— Andre Perrotta (@andreperrotta13) February 21, 2024

[SunsetBengal]

(03-17-2024, 10:30 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote:

Bengals never do it, but they could have easily created $4.25M in Cap Space in 2024 by this roster bonus conversion into a signing bonus + restructure of his 2014 base salary

Alternatively, they could have merely reclassified today's $3M roster bonus into a SB & saved $2M in Cap https://t.co/cUyzJNE9xD

— Andre Perrotta (@andreperrotta13) March 18, 2024

If they needed the space, they might have made that move. However, Andrei Pertotta is living 10 years in the past.  Wish I could pull that one off...

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-17-2024, 10:33 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If they needed the space, they might have made that move. However, Andrei Pertotta is living 10 years in the past.  Wish I could pull that one off...

?

- - - - - - -

Also it's not about needing space, it's about getting space that you can then use to get more talent on your team that year. You are putting yourself at a competitive disadvantage by not trying your hardest to creatively cram more talent on your team because the good teams are doing it. 

This all feels an awful lot like when before the Bengals participated in FA in any meaningful way people would say the Bengals were being smart because FAs sometimes turn out bad and "model model" we want those compensatory picks instead of those bad FAs.

Then we finally start signing FAs and actually win playoff games. It took us 30 years to catch up to the rest of the NFL in actively participating in FA. Lets hope we're not 30 years behind the NFL again in overstuffing the team in talent by manipulating the salary cap.

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-17-2024, 10:31 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote:

Even though the Bengals are in good Cap health, they should restructure Orlando Brown Jr.'s 2024 cash allocation, which would create an extra $4.25M in 2024 Cap space.

— Andre Perrotta (@andreperrotta13) February 21, 2024

And what does that do to his future cap hit?

That's a move for teams in cap hell imo. That need to kick the can down the road. And it usually ends up in massively inflated cap hits later in the contract, a player getting cut, and dead money.