Thoughts on Dre K ?

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 11:49 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote:   $7.5 million is much to high for Dre Kirkpatrick, it just is...

No it isn't.

[PDub80]

- 2014 ProFootball Focus had him rated the 2nd worst CB in the NFL.

- 2015 ProFootball Focus had him rated at 109 at the end of the season. So, a 3 spot improvement.

- Madden 16 generously had him rated as a 74 overall. I noticed a clutch Rating of just a straight "NO". 

Basically, he's thought of as poop by everyone but Fred and few other Bengals fans. And, as someone who religiously follows the team and watches every game, most home games in person so I see what happens off camera, I concur with the rating of: POOP.

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 04:48 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Basically, he's thought of as poop by everyone but Fred and few other Bengals fans.

You forgot the people who organize and run one of the best pass defenses in the NFL.

Bet you were one of the many "expert" fans who knew Justin Smith was garbage.

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-15-2016, 12:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No it isn't.

I will point you to post number 162 in this thread.  PFF (not always 100% accurate, but a very good assessor) has him rated in the bottom 5% of cornerbacks the last two years.  While the temptation to side with you is strong, I will resist that temptation to go with the combination of what my own eyes show me and their ratings.  Thank you though...

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 06:00 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I will point you to post number 162 in this thread.  PFF (not always 100% accurate, but a very good assessor) has him rated in the bottom 5% of cornerbacks the last two years.  While the temptation to side with you is strong, I will resist that temptation to go with the combination of what my own eyes show me and their ratings.  Thank you though...

So you are going to ignore the coaches of one of the top defenses in the league in favor of some guy from PFF grading film in his mom's basement?

I watched every Bengal game and my eyes showed me that we were very good against the pass with Dre playing almost 100% of the snaps.  He is no where near the worst CB in the league.  If he was then opposing QBs would gain a lot more yards throwing at him.  He is no Pro Bowl guy, but he is worth $7.5 million for us to keep him.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-15-2016, 04:48 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - 2014 ProFootball Focus had him rated the 2nd worst CB in the NFL.

- 2015 ProFootball Focus had him rated at 109 at the end of the season. So, a 3 spot improvement.

- Madden 16 generously had him rated as a 74 overall. I noticed a clutch Rating of just a straight "NO". 

Basically, he's thought of as poop by everyone but Fred and few other Bengals fans. And, as someone who religiously follows the team and watches every game, most home games in person so I see what happens off camera, I concur with the rating of: POOP.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-15-2016, 07:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you are going to ignore the coaches of one of the top defenses in the league in favor of some guy from PFF grading film in his mom's basement?

I watched every Bengal game and my eyes showed me that we were very good against the pass with Dre playing almost 100% of the snaps.  He is no where near the worst CB in the league.  If he was then opposing QBs would gain a lot more yards throwing at him.  He is no Pro Bowl guy, but he is worth $7.5 million for us to keep him.

......and yet you use PFF grades to show us all how good of an o line coach we have.....

[fredtoast]

(03-16-2016, 09:54 AM)Wyche Wrote: ......and yet you use PFF grades to show us all how good of an o line coach we have.....

PFF did not "invent" sacks allowed.

I have asked over and over again for Kirkpatrick's numbers like "passer rating against", "tds allowed", or "yards per attempt allowed", but no one will post them.

According to PFF almost half of our defense (Peko, Lamur, Maualuga, Kirkpatrick) are among the worst in the league yet we consistently have one of the best defenses in the league.  And when a guy like Lamur, who they call the worst in the league, hit the free agent market he got paid a lot more than a lot of guys PFF said were worse.

If Dre was the worst CB in the league then QBs would have consistently drove down the field completing passes against him, hit more long passes, and threw for more tds against him.  That just did not happen.

[PDub80]

(03-15-2016, 05:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You forgot the people who organize and run one of the best pass defenses in the NFL.

Bet you were one of the many "expert" fans who knew Justin Smith was garbage.

You mean the people who gave Stacy Andrews the Franchise tag? Or kept Leon Hall at huge money? Or played BJGE over Gio for most of a season? Or signed and played Sam Adams? Or Laverneus Coles? Or...... You get the point. Well, maybe not you, but ANYONE else reading this understands that the Bengals coaches and FO aren't infallible.

Oh, goodness! I guess because Chad and TJ were so good and the Bengals passing attack was strong, that it means that the other WRs on the team were EQUALLY as good. 

TO your point about Justin Smith, he was done in Cincy. They gave him a ton of money and used him poorly so he produced little. Clearly that was a scheme and coaching issue.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-16-2016, 11:36 AM)fredtoast Wrote: PFF did not "invent" sacks allowed.

I have asked over and over again for Kirkpatrick's numbers like "passer rating against", "tds allowed", or "yards per attempt allowed", but no one will post them.

According to PFF almost half of our defense (Peko, Lamur, Maualuga, Kirkpatrick) are among the worst in the league yet we consistently have one of the best defenses in the league.  And when a guy like Lamur, who they call the worst in the league, hit the free agent market he got paid a lot more than a lot of guys PFF said were worse.

If Dre was the worst CB in the league then QBs would have consistently drove down the field completing passes against him, hit more long passes, and threw for more tds against him.  That just did not happen.

Nice deflection.....

[fredtoast]

(03-16-2016, 01:04 PM)PDub80 Wrote: TO your point about Justin Smith, he was done in Cincy. They gave him a ton of money and used him poorly so he produced little. 

Thanks for proving my point.

Justin Smith

6 years with Bengals......43.5 sacks....466 tlks....21 PD
6 years with Niners........43.5 sacks....414 tlks....  9 PD


Just another Bengal fan who believes every message board myth he reads.

[fredtoast]

(03-16-2016, 01:04 PM)PDub80 Wrote: You mean the people who gave Stacy Andrews the Franchise tag? Or kept Leon Hall at huge money? Or played BJGE over Gio for most of a season? Or signed and played Sam Adams? Or Laverneus Coles? Or...... You get the point. Well, maybe not you, but ANYONE else reading this understands that the Bengals coaches and FO aren't infallible.

Then forget the front office.  what about the fact that opposing QBs were not able to move the ball effectively or score points by picking on Kirkpatrick?  How could that be if he was the worst CB in the league?

The Bengals FO and coaches may not be perfect, but they have been better than most other teams in the league for a while now, so I don't know why you would claim they are dumber than a bunch of PFF analysts that can not even get a job with an NFL team.

[PDub80]

(03-16-2016, 11:36 AM)fredtoast Wrote: PFF did not "invent" sacks allowed.

I have asked over and over again for Kirkpatrick's numbers like "passer rating against", "tds allowed", or "yards per attempt allowed", but no one will post them.

According to PFF almost half of our defense (Peko, Lamur, Maualuga, Kirkpatrick) are among the worst in the league yet we consistently have one of the best defenses in the league.  And when a guy like Lamur, who they call the worst in the league, hit the free agent market he got paid a lot more than a lot of guys PFF said were worse.

If Dre was the worst CB in the league then QBs would have consistently drove down the field completing passes against him, hit more long passes, and threw for more tds against him.  That just did not happen.

Look, count me in with you on Peko and Maualuga doing their jobs effectively. I'm all in on that. They were fine. Not world beaters, but certainly good at their jobs. Maualuga in particular has been way better.

- Lamur was terrible to watch out there - certainly worse than even Dre Kirk when you look at the amount of times they made llittle impact or were abused. Thank God Heath Miller retired because he had Lamur on a leash and collar. And thank God again for no one else having to read another article about how Lamur can run and cover. Uhhhhh.... no.

- To your point of having some poorly rated guys on defense I would counter point that with having some really big time difference makers to counter balance that. Not every guy is going to have a great grade every game or the majority of the time. Every team has weaker players, even the ones ranked highly.

-I just saw a statistic where Dre-K finished #11 in passes defended. One of the best in the league! Yet he was the only one in the top 30 or so without an INT! NO big plays. A bunch of tackles, 7 assisted, no sacks, no hurries, no forced fumbles. A big bunch of 0s across the board. You know why he has 70 tackles and only 7 assists? Because teams were completed balls on him. If it were run support he would have more assists. http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/defense/sort/passesDefended

Quick personal story to keep this in perspective....
- This whole "Is Dre Kirkpatrick any good or not" debate reminds me of the goalie on my high school soccer team. For the last 25 years we have been almost always state top 10 ranked, have been to several state Final 4s, and are one of the winning-est programs in Ohio boys sports history. For 17 years running the goalie from 2 of my groups's 4 years (he was in my class) has remained the school leader in shutouts and goals against average. But he was TERRIBLE. Absolutely a mess back there. We just had nobody else who actually liked goalie and had the size to do it. So, even though he is rated #1 in several statistical rankings, he is without question one of the bottom 3 keepers our school as ever had when it comes to quality of play and ability. It was the guys in front of him on D who fought to not let anyone shoot from certain areas of the field because we knew that if anyone got a shot off that wasn't right at him, we were risking it. And THAT is why his average is the lowest and he has the most shutouts.

^ That, to me, sums up Dre-K. The defense succeeded in spite of him a lot of times. YES, he makes plays occasionally. But in general, he's a liability. 

[PDub80]

(03-16-2016, 01:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Thanks for proving my point.

Justin Smith

6 years with Bengals......43.5 sacks....466 tlks....21 PD
6 years with Niners........43.5 sacks....414 tlks....  9 PD


Just another Bengal fan who believes every message board myth he reads.

With San Fran he was playing D-end in a 3-4, Fred!!!!!!!!

He played D-end in a 4-3 for the Bengals.

The fact that he was producing the same sack totals from a spot where he shouldn't be means he was doing MORE and playing better.

2.0 sacks for the Bengals as a 4-3 DE in his last season there. Then he went 7.0, 6.0, 8.5, 7.5 as a 3-4 DE!

He looked mediocre/good for the Bengals as a big money 4-3 DE. He looked like a monster for the 49ers producing that as a 3-4 DE.

[fredtoast]

(03-16-2016, 02:07 PM)PDub80 Wrote: He looked mediocre/good for the Bengals as a big money 4-3 DE. 

No he didn't.

He lead the entire league in tackles by a DE one year as a Bengal.  During the 6 years he was with the Bengals he had more tackles than any other DE in the entire league.  When he became a free agent he was regarded by all the experts as one of the top DEs available.

The ONLY ones who did not think he was a great DE were stupid Bengal fans who believed everything they read on a message board.  Just like the people today who are trashing Kirkpatrick.

[GreenCornBengal]

People are too harsh on Kirkpatrick. Every corner has his struggles. Some seasons are better than others.

I can remember Pacman getting destroyed by Keenan Allen. Doesn't make him a bad corner
Seen Leon get destroyed by a depressed pot head, doesn't mean he is a bad corner either.

Hell, I've seen Revis get schooled by Stevie Johnson.

Dre didn't have his best season last season but I don't think that makes him a lost cause. He keeps getting better, which is a good thing (in my Marvin voice)

[PDub80]

(03-16-2016, 02:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No he didn't.

He lead the entire league in tackles by a DE one year as a Bengal.  During the 6 years he was with the Bengals he had more tackles than any other DE in the entire league.  When he became a free agent he was regarded by all the experts as one of the top DEs available.

The ONLY ones who did not think he was a great DE were stupid Bengal fans who believed everything they read on a message board.  Just like the people today who are trashing Kirkpatrick.

Lol...

Justin Smith sack rankings among JUST DEs

-2003 ranked tied for 31st
- 2004 ranked tied for 14th
- 2005 ranked tied for 26th
- 2006 ranked 12th
- 2007 ranked tied for 61st




Average number of sacks produced over the last 5 of his 7 year Bengals career: 5.7.


Average ranking among DEs in sacks: 28.8


I guess to some, FRED, that's God like.


Yeah, Justin Smith was a real killer. A salary cap killer for his production that is. Few big plays. Lots of UP field tackles after gains had been made. Best DE at chasing down a running back after a 5 yard gain I've ever seen. 

[PDub80]

(03-16-2016, 02:48 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: People are too harsh on Kirkpatrick. Every corner has his struggles. Some seasons are better than others.

I can remember Pacman getting destroyed by Keenan Allen. Doesn't make him a bad corner
Seen Leon get destroyed by a depressed pot head, doesn't mean he is a bad corner either.

Hell, I've seen Revis get schooled by Stevie Johnson.

Dre didn't have his best season last season but I don't think that makes him a lost cause. He keeps getting better, which is a good thing (in my Marvin voice)

Actually, that literally WAS HIS BEST SEASON.

2014 he was rated the 2nd to worst CB in the NFL.

2015 he was, like, 7th to worst. That's his best so far.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-16-2016, 02:00 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Look, count me in with you on Peko and Maualuga doing their jobs effectively. I'm all in on that. They were fine. Not world beaters, but certainly good at their jobs. Maualuga in particular has been way better.

- Lamur was terrible to watch out there - certainly worse than even Dre Kirk when you look at the amount of times they made llittle impact or were abused. Thank God Heath Miller retired because he had Lamur on a leash and collar. And thank God again for no one else having to read another article about how Lamur can run and cover. Uhhhhh.... no.

- To your point of having some poorly rated guys on defense I would counter point that with having some really big time difference makers to counter balance that. Not every guy is going to have a great grade every game or the majority of the time. Every team has weaker players, even the ones ranked highly.

-I just saw a statistic where Dre-K finished #11 in passes defended. One of the best in the league! Yet he was the only one in the top 30 or so without an INT! NO big plays. A bunch of tackles, 7 assisted, no sacks, no hurries, no forced fumbles. A big bunch of 0s across the board. You know why he has 70 tackles and only 7 assists? Because teams were completed balls on him. If it were run support he would have more assists. http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/defense/sort/passesDefended

Quick personal story to keep this in perspective....
- This whole "Is Dre Kirkpatrick any good or not" debate reminds me of the goalie on my high school soccer team. For the last 25 years we have been almost always state top 10 ranked, have been to several state Final 4s, and are one of the winning-est programs in Ohio boys sports history. For 17 years running the goalie from 2 of my groups's 4 years (he was in my class) has remained the school leader in shutouts and goals against average. But he was TERRIBLE. Absolutely a mess back there. We just had nobody else who actually liked goalie and had the size to do it. So, even though he is rated #1 in several statistical rankings, he is without question one of the bottom 3 keepers our school as ever had when it comes to quality of play and ability. It was the guys in front of him on D who fought to not let anyone shoot from certain areas of the field because we knew that if anyone got a shot off that wasn't right at him, we were risking it. And THAT is why his average is the lowest and he has the most shutouts.

^ That, to me, sums up Dre-K. The defense succeeded in spite of him a lot of times. YES, he makes plays occasionally. But in general, he's a liability. 

Very good analogy, and agree on Peko and Rey.  I thought Peko was done in '14, turns out he just needed a more effective rotation to keep him fresher.  Rey M. has come leaps and bounds from where he was....probably a result from being moved.

AS for DreK, the stats mislead a tad....the play of the front four, and the help over the top from a terrific duo at Safety, coupled with the coordinator's ability to leave Pacman on an island masks a lot of his deficiencies, in my opinion.  It is what it is.......

[PDub80]

(03-16-2016, 04:54 PM)Wyche Wrote: Very good analogy, and agree on Peko and Rey.  I thought Peko was done in '14, turns out he just needed a more effective rotation to keep him fresher.  Rey M. has come leaps and bounds from where he was....probably a result from being moved.

AS for DreK, the stats mislead a tad....the play of the front four, and the help over the top from a terrific duo at Safety, coupled with the coordinator's ability to leave Pacman on an island masks a lot of his deficiencies, in my opinion.  It is what it is.......

You bring up a good point about the safeties. I would LOVE to know how many times the Bengals had coverage where the safety was rolled over to help on Dre-K's side. 

Maybe it was something the safeties did all the time regardless of who was out there, though? It would be interesting see an overhead coaches film to specifically watch for that.