Too Much TE?

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(05-03-2024, 02:06 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: So Sample in the backfield. Gesicki, All, McLachlan, and Hudson out wide. Zac will be running jumbo shotgun on 4th and inches.?

I've felt for awhile that they're moving away from a 3WR main system and will be running either a standard pro set or double TEs more often than in the past.

1) More protection for the most valuable player on the team
2) Also helps in the running game . . . from what I remember, everyone loved Ryan Hewitt
3) They'll still have 3WR formations
4) Backup TE/H-backs are a lot cheaper than a third starting WR and they still have the Chase contract coming up

[casear2727]

(05-03-2024, 02:06 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: So Sample in the backfield. Gesicki, All, McLachlan, and Hudson out wide. Zac will be running jumbo shotgun on 4th and inches.?

Lol, Zac loves shotgun in 4th and short.  Surely we only carry 4 TE's at max.  That said, I'm anxious to see Mims coming in often as the 6th olineman on short yardage situations.

[casear2727]

(05-03-2024, 07:19 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: I've felt for awhile that they're moving away from a 3WR main system and will be running either a standard pro set or double TEs more often than in the past.

1) More protection for the most valuable player on the team
2) Also helps in the running game . . . from what I remember, everyone loved Ryan Hewitt
3) They'll still have 3WR formations
4) Backup TE/H-backs are a lot cheaper than a third starting WR and they still have the Chase contract coming up

Could depend on Burton.  If he hits the ground as an exceptional player Zac will stick to 3-wide.  He has said numerous times that the 3 WRs he had were our best players/options on offense so we were going to play them. 

Also, how are they playing Gesicki?  Is he actually a slot receiver much more so than a traditional TE?

If All is not healthy, Sample is still the only blocking TE.   Burton, All, and McLachlan could all take time to adjust and develop.

It will be interesting to see how Zac and Pitcher design the offense for sure. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-03-2024, 07:19 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: I've felt for awhile that they're moving away from a 3WR main system and will be running either a standard pro set or double TEs more often than in the past.

1) More protection for the most valuable player on the team
2) Also helps in the running game . . . from what I remember, everyone loved Ryan Hewitt
3) They'll still have 3WR formations
4) Backup TE/H-backs are a lot cheaper than a third starting WR and they still have the Chase contract coming up

All good points, makes us less predictable as well. We will run a ton of 3 wide still I am sure, but I think 2 TE sets will be happening a lot
more now with all these additions, at least once All is healthy and McLachlan gains experience. I like Hudson but I don't think he has a 
chance once All is healthy, McLachlan is the better talent and is younger.

Gesicki this year could have a great year and will be paid by somebody else if this happens.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-03-2024, 07:19 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: I've felt for awhile that they're moving away from a 3WR main system and will be running either a standard pro set or double TEs more often than in the past.

1) More protection for the most valuable player on the team
2) Also helps in the running game . . . from what I remember, everyone loved Ryan Hewitt
3) They'll still have 3WR formations
4) Backup TE/H-backs are a lot cheaper than a third starting WR and they still have the Chase contract coming up

We agree completely on this one. The focus will turn to flooding zones with one man unable to be covered, enhancing the rushing attack and allowing Burrow to stay clean throughout the game. FWIW, I absolutely love the idea of using Drew Sample as an H-Back, where he can stay to pass protect, act as a lead block, or even be an outlet receiver.

[*bfine32*]

(05-03-2024, 12:24 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: My response was to casear2727 saying someone would poach him from the Bengals practice squad.  If any team gets any player from a practice squad, that player counts as a spot on the 53 man roster for a minimum of 3 weeks to the team that signs him.  You cant sign a practice squad player to another practice squad.  

If the Bengals release McLachlan and another team claims him before he can make it to the Bengals practice squad that team must put him on their 53 man roster.  If they dont put him on the 53 man roster, they too have to waive him.  They cant just claim him and put him on their own practice squad.  McLachlan is not a vested veteran.  The only way McLachlan goes to any practice squad is he has to clear waivers, otherwise he is on someone's 53 man roster.  I doubt too many teams are clamoring for a 6th round pick everyone passed on to have a spot on their 53 man roster.  I just dont see it.

Could McLachlan clear waivers but then decide he wants be on someone else's practice squad?  Yes but the Bengals could turn around and poach him and put him on the Bengals 53 man roster if they thought he was worth it.

Yes but if a player goes unclaimed he can sign with whichever Practice Squad he chooses. I believe it happened w/ one of our WRs a few years back. He was waived in final cuts, no one claimed him, but he signed for another PS because they offered more $

[casear2727]

(05-03-2024, 05:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes but if a player goes unclaimed he can sign with whichever Practice Squad he chooses. I believe it happened w/ one of our WRs a few years back. He was waived in final cuts, no one claimed him, but he signed for another PS because they offered more $

Yep he went to the Jags and Zac's brother.  Pretty sure we lost an UDFA DT/DE last season as well, he was an UDFA the previous year and a practice player for us one season, chose to leave after a solid preseason in 2023.

[007BengalsFan]

(05-03-2024, 05:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes but if a player goes unclaimed he can sign with whichever Practice Squad he chooses. I believe it happened w/ one of our WRs a few years back. He was waived in final cuts, no one claimed him, but he signed for another PS because they offered more $

Its not common for that to happen but if a player does decide to sign to another teams practice squad the Bengals could simply poach him from that practice squad if they wanted him back. When the Bengals released Raymond Johnson III last year, he signed with Detroit instead. If the Bengals had felt he was valuable enough, they could have poached him from the Lions.

(05-03-2024, 05:31 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Yep he went to the Jags and Zac's brother...

Kendric Pryor was claimed by Jacksonville and was on their 53 man roster the entire year. He wasnt signed to their practice squad. That's how they protected him from the Bengals or any other team. When the Jags released Pryor last year, the Bengals were able to re-sign him to the PS.

[casear2727]

(05-03-2024, 06:25 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Its not common for that to happen but if a player does decide to sign to another teams practice squad the Bengals could simply poach him from that practice squad if they wanted him back.  When the Bengals released Raymond Johnson III last year, he signed with Detroit instead.  If the Bengals had felt he was valuable enough, they could have poached him from the Lions.


Kendric Pryor was claimed by Jacksonville and was on their 53 man roster the entire year.  He wasnt signed to their practice squad.  That's how they protected him from the Bengals or any other team.  When the Jags released Pryor last year, the Bengals were able to re-sign him to the PS.

Lol, the denseness is so thick here.  Both of these players are exact examples of what bfine was trying to tell you.  Im sure he is grateful that you proved his point.  The conversation was about your weird take that no team would take a player the Bengals wanted on their practice squad.  It had ZERO to do with the Bengals trying to poach them back. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-03-2024, 05:23 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: We agree completely on this one. The focus will turn to flooding zones with one man unable to be covered, enhancing the rushing attack and allowing Burrow to stay clean throughout the game. FWIW, I absolutely love the idea of using Drew Sample as an H-Back, where he can stay to pass protect, act as a lead block, or even be an outlet receiver.

There were a few times late last season where Drew Sample was at H-Back and Jake Browning was clean in the pocket.

Hoping to see the same thing this year with Joe Burrow at QB. He is like an extra OL out there and when we are changing it up and using
more under Center and punishing teams with a running game this Offense could be nearly unstoppable.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-03-2024, 05:31 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Yep he went to the Jags and Zac's brother.  Pretty sure we lost an UDFA DT/DE last season as well, he was an UDFA the previous year and a practice player for us one season, chose to leave after a solid preseason in 2023.

Believe that was Kendrick Pryor and last year it was Raymond Johnson III. I liked Pryor and he is back, RJIII was our best pass rusher
last preseason.

[007BengalsFan]

(05-03-2024, 06:29 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Lol, the denseness is so thick here.  Both of these players are exact examples of what bfine was trying to tell you.  Im sure he is grateful that you proved his point.  The conversation was about your weird take that no team would take a player the Bengals wanted on their practice squad.  It had ZERO to do with the Bengals trying to poach them back. 

No,  You claimed McLachlan would not last on the practice squad that some other team would poach him.  I pointed out for that to happen it would require the other team to use a spot on the 53 man roster.  That is the rule.  If you dont know the rules you should probably learn them before you criticize other posters

(04-30-2024, 08:31 PM)casear2727 Wrote: ...McLachlan would be claimed off the PS the same day he was put on it...

[casear2727]

(05-03-2024, 07:01 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: No,  You claimed McLachlan would not last on the practice squad that some other team would poach him.  I pointed out for that to happen it would require the other team to use a spot on the 53 man roster.  That is the rule.  If you dont know the rules you should probably learn them before you criticize other posters

You explaining how the NFL works to me and others here that obviously know so much more than you makes many of us giggle while we roll our eyes.

I'll just wait for your next bad take.  They seem to come in bunches. 

[Joelist]

Maybe, just maybe, Sample moves to FB. If he comes in like he did last year muscled up like the Hulk its more likely.

[*Synric*]

(05-03-2024, 07:17 PM)Joelist Wrote: Maybe, just maybe, Sample moves to FB. If he comes in like he did last year muscled up like the Hulk its more likely.

I swear if Sample is the 3rd down back again in 2024 I will have a meltdown.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

The whole situation at TE is really strange to me. I feel conflicted about it.

On the one hand, I think All was a reach at Rd 4 with his injury history (current injury?). Will he even be able to help this year? I thought we had more pressing needs at CB4 and IOL and good ones were still out there at #115. Not to mention RB. For a team that is all in, it did not make much sense to me. He was my least favorite pick in the whole draft.

However, none of that has a whit ti do with the player. Who is quite talented. If healthy (huge if), and if he is the same guy post ACL (big if), he is easily the most complete TE in our group and is TE1. There is no possible universe where he is not on the 53 or on the PUP/IR.

I was similarly conflicted about McLachlan. I think he was good value in the 6th. A few draftnicks had him as a top 5 TE. Kiper 7th.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2024/insider/story/_/id/38381720/2024-nfl-draft-rankings-mel-kiper-big-board-top-prospects-position-best-players

But after locking Sample up for 3 years, signing Gesicki, bringing Hudson back, AND drafting All, it did not make much sense to me. Again, I'd have gone IOL here.

So what to make of it going forward?

Big picture, Sample, Gesicki, and All are all mortal locks for the roster, or PUP if All is not healthy. We are not gonna risk losing any of them. Period.

All & McLachlan, for me, are the most well rounded of the bunch. I think we see All (if healthy) as TE1. He can catch, run, and block. Has some wiggle. Can line up at FB.

And I think we see McLachlan as a future TE2/TE3 type. A bit more of a pass catcher than a blocker, but not to a Gesicki/Hudson degree and will provide a good balance with Sample as the backup TEs in that regard. Also a real try hard guy who should be able to play specials.

Gesicki & Hudson are basically slot receivers. They are the most ready to contribute at the moment (in the passing game) given All's injury. But both are also on 1 year deals. And also play the least on special teams. I am not sure either is in our long term plans. But if we keep 4 TEs, a pure pass catcher is fine. Two might be a bit much, though. Then again, none of the others can cone close to their effectiveness as receivers (with All hurt).

The last couple years, we have started the year with 3 TEs on the 53, but finished with 4. We have also carried 7 WRs a time or two.

The easiest solution is to just carry 4 TEs and put All on PUP to start and go 1 lighter at another spot (RB , OL, LB). I think that is what we'll do.

If they have to pick one guy to risk losing by sneaking him onto the PS, it is gonna be Hudson.

Really, I could see scenarios where we keep 11 WRs + TEs, and go lighter at 2 spots (RB, OL, LB, DB). The new kickoff rules are kind of a curveball, do we need more returners (Evans). Less LB/RB/S/TE special team players? More lineman types on specials?

It isn't just about Hudson or McLachlan's value vs the other TEs, it is about their value vs the other guys on the bubble: Evans, Ford, Carman, Smith, T. Hill, Lee, Ossai, C. Sample, Robinson, Carter, Tufele, Bell, Harper, J. Davis, Ivey, Anderson, and Anthony.

And how Burton, Jones, & Iosivas develop will also play in. How much slot help from TEs do we need? If it not much, then Hudson's spot is iffier.

But All's health is the big one. He (and Anderson & Ivey) are coming off serious injury. If All is healthy, he is gonna be in the 53. We won't stash a healthy All on PUP. We could for Ivey or Anderson.

Personally, I think Hudson has more value than most of the guys I listed as bubble guys. Though a healthy Gesicki takes most/all of his snaps. Which reduces his value.

[The D.O.Z.]

(05-05-2024, 02:03 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: The whole situation at TE is really strange to me. I feel conflicted about it.

On the one hand, I think All was a reach at Rd 4 with his injury history (current injury?). Will he even be able to help this year? I thought we had more pressing needs at CB4 and IOL and good ones were still out there at #115. Not to mention RB. For a team that is all in, it did not make much sense to me. He was my least favorite pick in the whole draft.

However, none of that has a whit ti do with the player. Who is quite talented. If healthy (huge if), and if he is the same guy post ACL (big if), he is easily the most complete TE in our group and is TE1. There is no possible universe where he is not on the 53 or on the PUP/IR.

I was similarly conflicted about McLachlan. I think he was good value in the 6th. A few draftnicks had him as a top 5 TE. Kiper 7th.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2024/insider/story/_/id/38381720/2024-nfl-draft-rankings-mel-kiper-big-board-top-prospects-position-best-players

But after locking Sample up for 3 years, signing Gesicki, bringing Hudson back, AND drafting All, it did not make much sense to me. Again, I'd have gone IOL here.

So what to make of it going forward?

Big picture, Sample, Gesicki, and All are all mortal locks for the roster, or PUP if All is not healthy. We are not gonna risk losing any of them. Period.

All & McLachlan, for me, are the most well rounded of the bunch. I think we see All (if healthy) as TE1. He can catch, run, and block. Has some wiggle. Can line up at FB.

And I think we see McLachlan as a future TE2/TE3 type. A bit more of a pass catcher than a blocker, but not to a Gesicki/Hudson degree and will provide a good balance with Sample as the backup TEs in that regard. Also a real try hard guy who should be able to play specials.

Gesicki & Hudson are basically slot receivers. They are the most ready to contribute at the moment (in the passing game) given All's injury. But both are also on 1 year deals. And also play the least on special teams. I am not sure either is in our long term plans. But if we keep 4 TEs, a pure pass catcher is fine. Two might be a bit much, though. Then again, none of the others can cone close to their effectiveness as receivers (with All hurt).

The last couple years, we have started the year with 3 TEs on the 53, but finished with 4. We have also carried 7 WRs a time or two.

The easiest solution is to just carry 4 TEs and put All on PUP to start and go 1 lighter at another spot (RB , OL, LB). I think that is what we'll do.

If they have to pick one guy to risk losing by sneaking him onto the PS, it is gonna be Hudson.

Really, I could see scenarios where we keep 11 WRs + TEs, and go lighter at 2 spots (RB, OL, LB, DB). The new kickoff rules are kind of a curveball, do we need more returners (Evans). Less LB/RB/S/TE special team players? More lineman types on specials?

It isn't just about Hudson or McLachlan's value vs the other TEs, it is about their value vs the other guys on the bubble: Evans, Ford, Carman, Smith, T. Hill, Lee, Ossai, C. Sample, Robinson, Carter, Tufele, Bell, Harper, J. Davis, Ivey, Anderson, and Anthony.

And how Burton, Jones, & Iosivas develop will also play in. How much slot help from TEs do we need? If it not much, then Hudson's spot is iffier.

But All's health is the big one. He (and Anderson & Ivey) are coming off serious injury. If All is healthy, he is gonna be in the 53. We won't stash a healthy All on PUP. We could for Ivey or Anderson.

Personally, I think Hudson has more value than most of the guys I listed as bubble guys. Though a healthy Gesicki takes most/all of his snaps. Which reduces his value.

You make some great points here. My guess is they go slim at LB. We have ADG and Bachie backing up Wilson and Pratt, and rarely go pure 4-3. If it's not nickel, it's usually a 5-2 or a variant of 3-4 with 3 down linemen and Hendrickson and Hubbard standing up on the edges. So we don't use LB much aside from our "starting 2". Harper can be PS'd unless he lights it up in the preseason.

I think we keep 4RB, with Trayveon and Evans as returners. Them not drafting a RB sort of wrote it on the wall for me. It's the only reason Evans sticks on this roster, in my opinion.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

I know it is not a perfect way to do it, but for a lot of the fringe guys, I just ask myself, do we lose much (in terms of on field play or future potential) if this guys is cut or we replace him with a guy on the PS?

Guys like Hudson, Ossai, D. Sample, C. Sample, and even Carman and Carter have at least shown they can play a bit in actual NFL games. And not just on special teams.

Guys like Harper, T. Hill, D. Smith, & T. Bell really have not. I do not see much difference between them and PS squad guys. Nor that much upside on the roster. Best case they are special teamers/emergency level guys. And they are unlikely to be poached off a PS because they have nothing but ST tape.

Guys like Bachie, J. Davis, and Tufele have shown a bit more in limited time. Particularly Davis, though he is slot only. Guys like Newton, D. Hill, and Anthony can play spot + outside and/or safety.

Guys like Anderson, Ivey, Lee, McLachlan, Robinson, & Anthony have a bit more potential in my view.

We are talking #4 RB vs #10 OL vs #5 LB vs #6 DE vs #5 S vs #6 DT.

For me, I don't let any of the TEs hit the market. If I have to pick one, it would be Hudson.

I also keep Lee, Ivey, Anderson, and Bachie around. Though Ivey/Anderson could start on PUP.

I do not sweat Harper, D. Smith, T. Bell, or Tufele hitting the open market at all.

Evans, T. Hill, and J. Davis are tougher calls. But I like the potential of Lee + Robinson, & Anthony's versatility better.

I also think Ford is pure PS material, but we apparently like him, so whatever.

[SouthernFan]

I’m convinced that the double dip at TE in the draft is all about “closing the revolving door” for this position in the future.  I expect that All will be placed on the NFI list to continue his acl rehab.  That leaves 4 TE’s to start the season which I believe is the number they typically carry. All may come back at some point, but I won’t be surprised if we don’t see him until next year when Gesicki no doubt will be gone.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-05-2024, 02:03 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: The whole situation at TE is really strange to me. I feel conflicted about it.

On the one hand, I think All was a reach at Rd 4 with his injury history (current injury?). Will he even be able to help this year? I thought we had more pressing needs at CB4 and IOL and good ones were still out there at #115. Not to mention RB. For a team that is all in, it did not make much sense to me. He was my least favorite pick in the whole draft.

However, none of that has a whit ti do with the player. Who is quite talented. If healthy (huge if), and if he is the same guy post ACL (big if), he is easily the most complete TE in our group and is TE1. There is no possible universe where he is not on the 53 or on the PUP/IR.

I was similarly conflicted about McLachlan. I think he was good value in the 6th. A few draftnicks had him as a top 5 TE. Kiper 7th.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2024/insider/story/_/id/38381720/2024-nfl-draft-rankings-mel-kiper-big-board-top-prospects-position-best-players

But after locking Sample up for 3 years, signing Gesicki, bringing Hudson back, AND drafting All, it did not make much sense to me. Again, I'd have gone IOL here.

So what to make of it going forward?

Big picture, Sample, Gesicki, and All are all mortal locks for the roster, or PUP if All is not healthy. We are not gonna risk losing any of them. Period.

All & McLachlan, for me, are the most well rounded of the bunch. I think we see All (if healthy) as TE1. He can catch, run, and block. Has some wiggle. Can line up at FB.

And I think we see McLachlan as a future TE2/TE3 type. A bit more of a pass catcher than a blocker, but not to a Gesicki/Hudson degree and will provide a good balance with Sample as the backup TEs in that regard. Also a real try hard guy who should be able to play specials.

Gesicki & Hudson are basically slot receivers. They are the most ready to contribute at the moment (in the passing game) given All's injury. But both are also on 1 year deals. And also play the least on special teams. I am not sure either is in our long term plans. But if we keep 4 TEs, a pure pass catcher is fine. Two might be a bit much, though. Then again, none of the others can cone close to their effectiveness as receivers (with All hurt).

The last couple years, we have started the year with 3 TEs on the 53, but finished with 4. We have also carried 7 WRs a time or two.

The easiest solution is to just carry 4 TEs and put All on PUP to start and go 1 lighter at another spot (RB , OL, LB). I think that is what we'll do.

If they have to pick one guy to risk losing by sneaking him onto the PS, it is gonna be Hudson.

Really, I could see scenarios where we keep 11 WRs + TEs, and go lighter at 2 spots (RB, OL, LB, DB). The new kickoff rules are kind of a curveball, do we need more returners (Evans). Less LB/RB/S/TE special team players? More lineman types on specials?

It isn't just about Hudson or McLachlan's value vs the other TEs, it is about their value vs the other guys on the bubble: Evans, Ford, Carman, Smith, T. Hill, Lee, Ossai, C. Sample, Robinson, Carter, Tufele, Bell, Harper, J. Davis, Ivey, Anderson, and Anthony.

And how Burton, Jones, & Iosivas develop will also play in. How much slot help from TEs do we need? If it not much, then Hudson's spot is iffier.

But All's health is the big one. He (and Anderson & Ivey) are coming off serious injury. If All is healthy, he is gonna be in the 53. We won't stash a healthy All on PUP. We could for Ivey or Anderson.

Personally, I think Hudson has more value than most of the guys I listed as bubble guys. Though a healthy Gesicki takes most/all of his snaps. Which reduces his value.

Great post. I share a lot of your thoughts. I know for 1000% fact they were focused on fixing the revolving door at TE. JMO the theme on offense (and maybe Dan Pitchers influence) is to be more explosive on offense. They moved on from Mixon I believe for that reason. Burton is explosive . Gesicki is definitely more explosive. Tanner McLachlan is more explosive and athletic than Hudson. All they are hoping is the long term answer of fixing the revolving door.