First 2025 Mock Draft

[Whatever]

(Today, 02:47 AM)Synric Wrote: You forgot TFLs and run stops which Nolen has about double Grant.

Also if you are talking about NFL projection Nolen's 2024 season as productive this year as both of Grant's season's at NT combined. It depends on if you believe there was growth in Nolen's game from 2023 to 2024.


I'm good with either Kenneth Grant or Walter Nolen to begin a DL build around.


Edit: Walter Nolen is going to be at the Senior Bowl!

I mean, most 3 techs are going to have better stats than a 2 gap NT.

The allure of Grant is he's a true 2 gap NT with the ability to rush the passer both with his quickness to shoot a gap and just pushing the pocket.  That's much more rare than a 3 tech that can rush the passer.  

[*Synric*]

(Today, 10:40 AM)Whatever Wrote: I mean, most 3 techs are going to have better stats than a 2 gap NT.

The allure of Grant is he's a true 2 gap NT with the ability to rush the passer both with his quickness to shoot a gap and just pushing the pocket.  That's much more rare than a 3 tech that can rush the passer.  

Walter Nolen is an elite run defender too from the 3t/4t spots but I'm with you on Kenneth Grant he has the talent to change the numbers up front for rhe Bengals on early downs like DJ Reader. 

I'd be ok if they take either guy or even if they traded back into the mid 20s for Tyliek Williams and collected another 2nd pick to use on Omar Norman-Lott or TJ Sanders.

[*ochocincos*]

(Today, 02:29 AM)pulses Wrote: I think Jenkins was envisioned to take Hill's spot but until we get a new DC we won't know for sure.

Not too confident Jenkins will fill Hill's role to the fullest, personally.
I just don't see the pass rushing chops in him.
My worry is he becomes a 2-down run stopping UT who gets subbed out for someone else who is a more prolific pass rusher.

If that's the case, I'd rather just get a 3-down UT who can actually rush the passer and have Jenkins as a rotational/backup guy.

I realize the coaches probably saw something in him they felt he could develop to improve his pass rush, but especially with the DL coach and DC getting the axe, I'm not sure they would have succeeded in turning that hope into a reality.

[*ochocincos*]

(Today, 10:40 AM)Whatever Wrote: I mean, most 3 techs are going to have better stats than a 2 gap NT.

The allure of Grant is he's a true 2 gap NT with the ability to rush the passer both with his quickness to shoot a gap and just pushing the pocket.  That's much more rare than a 3 tech that can rush the passer.  

Do you take a guy in the 1st who is more rare at his specific position or a guy who is going to actually get more production?
To me, this is why NT is typically drafted lower than a pass rushing menace IDL.

Even if Grant ends up being a rare unicorn NT, will be still boost the pass rush more than a guy like Nolen?
More sacks is what I want to see in the end.

When I think of truly special game-changing NT that I would be willing to take in the teens in the 1st round, I think of a guy like Vita Vea or Haloti Ngata.
Is Grant their caliber?
Vea has averaged 6+ sacks each season over the past 3 seasons.

I was just getting into football when Ngata came out of college, so I don't remember what he was like in college, but I remember how much of a force he was in the NFL.
However, he was in a 3-4, so the ask and production were different from what I would expect of a 4-3 NT.
Vea is an ideal NT I would like to have on the Bengals though.
If Grant can be that caliber (not sure if he's there yet), I'm game.

[pulses]

(7 hours ago)ochocincos Wrote: Not too confident Jenkins will fill Hill's role to the fullest, personally.
I just don't see the pass rushing chops in him.
My worry is he becomes a 2-down run stopping UT who gets subbed out for someone else who is a more prolific pass rusher.

If that's the case, I'd rather just get a 3-down UT who can actually rush the passer and have Jenkins as a rotational/backup guy.

I realize the coaches probably saw something in him they felt he could develop to improve his pass rush, but especially with the DL coach and DC getting the axe, I'm not sure they would have succeeded in turning that hope into a reality.

One year under bad coaching isn't gonna tell you everything you wanna know either.

[Whatever]

(7 hours ago)ochocincos Wrote: Do you take a guy in the 1st who is more rare at his specific position or a guy who is going to actually get more production?
To me, this is why NT is typically drafted lower than a pass rushing menace IDL.

Even if Grant ends up being a rare unicorn NT, will be still boost the pass rush more than a guy like Nolen?
More sacks is what I want to see in the end.

When I think of truly special game-changing NT that I would be willing to take in the teens in the 1st round, I think of a guy like Vita Vea or Haloti Ngata.
Is Grant their caliber?
Vea has averaged 6+ sacks each season over the past 3 seasons.

I was just getting into football when Ngata came out of college, so I don't remember what he was like in college, but I remember how much of a force he was in the NFL.
However, he was in a 3-4, so the ask and production were different from what I would expect of a 4-3 NT.
Vea is an ideal NT I would like to have on the Bengals though.
If Grant can be that caliber (not sure if he's there yet), I'm game.

Jalen Carter has been the best 3 tech prospect to come out in a decade.  Through two years in the league he has...10.5 sacks.  And he's considered a beast.  I can give other examples, but DT in general is not a position you should be drafting for individual pass rush numbers.  I mean, Geno Atkins is a HoF player, and he only had three seasons with double digit sacks.

Grant will almost certainly test better than Vea does.  Whether he becomes that good of a player is up in the air, but he has more potential than Vea.  

[*ochocincos*]

(6 hours ago)pulses Wrote: One year under bad coaching isn't gonna tell you everything you wanna know either.

Fair, but I wasn't basing it just on that.
Jenkins wasn't a prolific pass rusher in college either.
Only 4.5 sacks across 44 games played in college.

[*ochocincos*]

(6 hours ago)Whatever Wrote: Jalen Carter has been the best 3 tech prospect to come out in a decade.  Through two years in the league he has...10.5 sacks.  And he's considered a beast.  I can give other examples, but DT in general is not a position you should be drafting for individual pass rush numbers.  I mean, Geno Atkins is a HoF player, and he only had three seasons with double digit sacks.

Grant will almost certainly test better than Vea does.  Whether he becomes that good of a player is up in the air, but he has more potential than Vea.  

I'm not expecting a 1st round DT has to get 10+ sacks annually.
I know 10+ is rare for IDL.

However, I would expect a 1st round DT to put up around 5-7 a year on average.

The top 15 DTs in sacks this year were:
Zach Sieler - 10.0
Dexter Lawrence - 9.0
Bryan Bresee - 7.5
Vita Vea - 7.0
Nnamdi Madubuike - 6.5
Tershawn Wharton - 6.5
DeForest Buckner - 6.5
Quinnen Williams - 6.0
Calais Campbell - 5.0
Maliek Collins - 5.0
Adam Butler - 5.0
Milton Williams - 5.0
Tim Settle - 5.0
Jeff Simmons - 5.0
Chris Jones - 5.0

Also, Braden Fiske was a 3T I wanted last draft who has done very well in the NFL as a rookie but was converted to 3-4 DE for the Rams. 8.5 sacks.

If Grant can get to this level of production, I'm game.
I think Nolen and Mason Graham can, which is why I like them as 1st round DT prospects ahead of Grant.
I'm worried Grant may be more in the 2-4 sacks a season average and more of a well-rounded DT than a pass rush menace.
There's value there for sure, but I dunno if I'd go that route for 1st round over some other positions like DE, DB, or pass catcher.

[pulses]

(4 hours ago)ochocincos Wrote: I'm not expecting a 1st round DT has to get 10+ sacks annually.
I know 10+ is rare for IDL.

However, I would expect a 1st round DT to put up around 5-7 a year on average.

The top 15 DTs in sacks this year were:
Zach Sieler - 10.0
Dexter Lawrence - 9.0
Bryan Bresee - 7.5
Vita Vea - 7.0
Nnamdi Madubuike - 6.5
Tershawn Wharton - 6.5
DeForest Buckner - 6.5
Quinnen Williams - 6.0
Calais Campbell - 5.0
Maliek Collins - 5.0
Adam Butler - 5.0
Milton Williams - 5.0
Tim Settle - 5.0
Jeff Simmons - 5.0
Chris Jones - 5.0

Also, Braden Fiske was a 3T I wanted last draft who has done very well in the NFL as a rookie but was converted to 3-4 DE for the Rams. 8.5 sacks.

If Grant can get to this level of production, I'm game.
I think Nolen and Mason Graham can, which is why I like them as 1st round DT prospects ahead of Grant.
I'm worried Grant may be more in the 2-4 sacks a season average and more of a well-rounded DT than a pass rush menace.
There's value there for sure, but I dunno if I'd go that route for 1st round over some other positions like DE, DB, or pass catcher.

I wouldn't be mad with Jalon Walker in round 1.

[*ochocincos*]

(4 hours ago)pulses Wrote: I wouldn't be mad with Jalon Walker in round 1.

Will Bengals be able to actually convert him to full-time 4-3 DE?
Or were you thinking as an off-ball LB who occasionally rushes the passer?
Or convert to more of a 3-4 where Walker could be used as a true 3-4 OLB?

If this was in Anarumo's scheme, no way would I think Walker would be utilized properly.

[pulses]

(4 hours ago)ochocincos Wrote: Will Bengals be able to actually convert him to full-time 4-3 DE?
Or were you thinking as an off-ball LB who occasionally rushes the passer?
Or convert to more of a 3-4 where Walker could be used as a true 3-4 OLB?

If this was in Anarumo's scheme, no way would I think Walker would be utilized properly.

Off ball LB who rushes the passer when needed...I would have him take Pratt's spot and play all 3 downs.