The Force Awakens spoiler thread

[Millhouse]

(12-31-2015, 11:16 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Attachment leads to emotion, that's why it is forbidden. You don't have the same feeling for your child as for another. It's obvious.

A lot of things lead to emotions, its keeping them in check is what that means basically. But your point of using the Code as Luke not being a Jedi is debunked by Obi-Wan in the Phantom Menace. He tells Qui-Gon to basically dont defy the council again, and that "if you would just follow the code you would be on the council". That means the code apparently isnt always followed by Jedi. But if one strays too far away from it like Doodoo did, probably will go down the dark path. (if not a Grey Jedi in Kotor :) )

[jfkbengals]

(12-31-2015, 11:16 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Attachment leads to emotion, that's why it is forbidden. You don't have the same feeling for your child as for another. It's obvious.

And every Jedi has attachment to the Order and Council, thus has emotion for them, correct?

(01-02-2016, 04:45 PM)Millhouse Wrote: A lot of things lead to emotions, its keeping them in check is what that means basically. But your point of using the Code as Luke not being a Jedi is debunked by Obi-Wan in the Phantom Menace. He tells Qui-Gon to basically dont defy the council again, and that "if you would just follow the code you would be on the council". That means the code apparently isnt always followed by Jedi. But if one strays too far away from it like Doodoo did, probably will go down the dark path. (if not a Grey Jedi in Kotor :) )

You said doodoo!

[BmorePat87]

Speaking of links to Jacen Solo, I knew Kylo Ren was a Solo when Adam Driver discussed the character in an interview. He said he wasn't truly evil, he was an ideologue who believes what he is doing is the right thing for the galaxy. That's what happened to Jacen.

He was more Jedi while his sister, Jaina, was more pilot. He gets captured during the Yuuzhan Vong war (aliens void of the force who use all organic technology) and is bonded with this alien thing that eventually becomes your ship. As a result he gains an understanding of them and how to feel them in the force (in a way). He also connects with a Jedi who was captured by them decades ago and reveals to him that there is no light or dark, it's all about your intent.

After the war, he travels for years learning arcane Jedi teachings. While off, he has a kid with a former classmate at the Jedi academy who is queen of her planet. They have to keep her parentage a secret. He eventually meets a Sith who convinces him that a vision he has the galaxy being destroyed and his daughter dying will come true unless he turns to the Dark Side to bring balance. He eventually becomes involved in galactic politics and turns it into a police state. He keeps his Sith fall a secret and eventually secretly kills Luke's wife, his former master. Eventually he takes the name Darth Caedus. His sister eventually trains with Boba Fett to learn to kill him and does. I stopped reading the books with this one because I found it unbelievable. Jaina was never the Jedi her brother was. She was an ace pilot and more soldier than anything else. Fett, who was now Mandalor, training or not, he easily kicks her ass an a force fueled battle.

Basically Kylo Ren was modeled after this. He is led to believe that what he is doing is right, despite having doubts about it all.

[Belsnickel]

(01-07-2016, 11:24 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Speaking of links to Jacen Solo, I knew Kylo Ren was a Solo when Adam Driver discussed the character in an interview. He said he wasn't truly evil, he was an ideologue who believes what he is doing is the right thing for the galaxy. That's what happened to Jacen.

He was more Jedi while his sister, Jaina, was more pilot. He gets captured during the Yuuzhan Vong war (aliens void of the force who use all organic technology) and is bonded with this alien thing that eventually becomes your ship. As a result he gains an understanding of them and how to feel them in the force (in a way). He also connects with a Jedi who was captured by them decades ago and reveals to him that there is no light or dark, it's all about your intent.

After the war, he travels for years learning arcane Jedi teachings. While off, he has a kid with a former classmate at the Jedi academy who is queen of her planet. They have to keep her parentage a secret. He eventually meets a Sith who convinces him that a vision he has the galaxy being destroyed and his daughter dying will come true unless he turns to the Dark Side to bring balance. He eventually becomes involved in galactic politics and turns it into a police state. He keeps his Sith fall a secret and eventually secretly kills Luke's wife, his former master. Eventually he takes the name Darth Caedus. His sister eventually trains with Boba Fett to learn to kill him and does. I stopped reading the books with this one because I found it unbelievable. Jaina was never the Jedi her brother was. She was an ace pilot and more soldier than anything else. Fett, who was now Mandalor, training or not, he easily kicks her ass an a force fueled battle.

Basically Kylo Ren was modeled after this. He is led to believe that what he is doing is right, despite having doubts about it all.

You might have just blown th minds of those that ere unaware of Fett's escape from the sarlacc.

[RoyleRedlegs]

Fan theories are the best

[Sovereign Nation]

I guess I am one of the few that wasn't impressed with the new movie.

I just find the idea of Rey to be boring. No matter her background, the whole story just feels forced. (no pun intended)

It seems that they are reaching to try and make her interesting, which you would think wouldn't be needed considering her ability to use the force with 0 training in it's use. Luke at least traveled with Obi Wan and witness some of the techniques and had a rudimentary grasp of the basics before doing the things that he did.

Anakin who was supposed to be a child born of the force even needed to be guided in it's use before having any proficiency, yet Rey is able to do a Mind Trick and telekinesis without even seeing them in action.

To me Finn had more of a story and even his was a bit sketchy. He was raised a Stormtrooper his whole life, has a maintenance job, and then is finally put in battle, only to chicken out the moment a different Stormtrooper is killed, causing him to be completely hesitant the whole battle and thus defy his orders. Then his character is supposed to be about self preservation, but he kept putting himself in danger for people that he doesn't even know.

Glad the movie made a bunch of money, but still thought it was boring and lacked anything other than pretty special effects.

[WeezyBengal]

(12-30-2015, 07:04 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: Solo didn't know her but they were practically finishing each other's sentences.  I still think she's either a long lost child of Han and Leia or Luke's daughter.

I'm sorry, but long lost child? What the hell is wrong with these people? They just have sex, get pregnant, then abandon their kinds on an estranged planet? 

I'm not buying it. I'd be happier if Rey turns out to be a no one. 

[WeezyBengal]

(01-08-2016, 08:59 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: I guess I am one of the few that wasn't impressed with the new movie.

I just find the idea of Rey to be boring.  No matter her background, the whole story just feels forced. (no pun intended)

It seems that they are reaching to try and make her interesting, which you would think wouldn't be needed considering her ability to use the force with 0 training in it's use.  Luke at least traveled with Obi Wan and witness some of the techniques and had a rudimentary grasp of the basics before doing the things that he did.

Anakin who was supposed to be a child born of the force even needed to be guided in it's use before having any proficiency, yet Rey is able to do a Mind Trick and telekinesis without even seeing them in action.

To me Finn had more of a story and even his was a bit sketchy.  He was raised a Stormtrooper his whole life, has a maintenance job, and then is finally put in battle, only to chicken out the moment a different Stormtrooper is killed, causing him to be completely hesitant the whole battle and thus defy his orders.  Then his character is supposed to be about self preservation, but he kept putting himself in danger for people that he doesn't even know.  

Glad the movie made a bunch of money, but still thought it was boring and lacked anything other than pretty special effects.

I think you pretty much just said exactly what makes Rey interesting. 

[GMDino]

Coming in late to the thread so I didn't read every post, forgive me.

I loved the movie and can't wait to see what happens with the next two.

But three things I had a quibble with...because that is what I do with media.

1) The blowing up the Death Planet thing. I know "why" they did it, but I didn't need that personally to enjoy the film on its own.

2) OK JJ...we get the Nazi references. The only thing else he could have done was have a lead character with a small mustache.

3) When Fin crashes on the desert planet and starts looking for Po while still in his stormtrooper gear I whispered:



And while looking for that image I found out that apparently I'm not the only one!





Otherwise the in jokes worked for me. The story worked for me.

But I can understand those who didn't care for it too.

[Sovereign Nation]

(01-08-2016, 01:21 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I think you pretty much just said exactly what makes Rey interesting. 

If you are into that sort of thing then have at it.

I mean, sure it is fiction, and a suspension of disbelief is required for viewing.  However, I draw the line with characters that have 0 ability one minute, to being skilled enough to fight one of the main villains, and win, the next. 

Not only that, but the Jedi Mind trick has to my recollection, the need to wave a hand.  She gets the guy to do what she wants on the 2nd try, and then as an after though had him drop his weapon when he was already walking away.

That was one of the worst escape scenes they could have come up with.  I know why they did it, and that makes it even worse.

[Arturo Bandini]

(01-08-2016, 05:26 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: If you are into that sort of thing then have at it.

I mean, sure it is fiction, and a suspension of disbelief is required for viewing.  However, I draw the line with characters that have 0 ability one minute, to being skilled enough to fight one of the main villains, and win, the next. 

Not only that, but the Jedi Mind trick has to my recollection, the need to wave a hand.  She gets the guy to do what she wants on the 2nd try, and then as an after though had him drop his weapon when he was already walking away.

That was one of the worst escape scenes they could have come up with.  I know why they did it, and that makes it even worse.

There is a scene where Kylo Ren tries to get in his head and finally she gets in his instead. That's where she learnt the mind trick.

I already stated that all the movie link her to Anakin and I think she's Anakin's reborn, the chosen one. 

[Sovereign Nation]

(01-08-2016, 05:29 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: There is a scene where Kylo Ren tries to get in his head and finally she gets in his instead. That's where she learnt the mind trick.

I already stated that all the movie link her to Anakin and I think she's Anakin's reborn, the chosen one. 

It is weak sauce writing.

Even Anakin had to be trained in the force.  So she would have to go through the same.

The mind trick was not what Ren was doing.  He was interrogating her.  Kind of like Vader did to Luke in RotJ when he realized that Luke had a sister.  That is reading the emotions of the person to get them to betray them. 

Now you could argue that the premise is the same, and that she may have heard of the mind trick and put 2 and 2 together, but again that is very poor writing.

I have heard that theory and if it is true then so what?  Just makes her that much more boring of a character.

[Belsnickel]

(01-08-2016, 05:26 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: If you are into that sort of thing then have at it.

I mean, sure it is fiction, and a suspension of disbelief is required for viewing.  However, I draw the line with characters that have 0 ability one minute, to being skilled enough to fight one of the main villains, and win, the next. 

Not only that, but the Jedi Mind trick has to my recollection, the need to wave a hand.  She gets the guy to do what she wants on the 2nd try, and then as an after though had him drop his weapon when he was already walking away.

That was one of the worst escape scenes they could have come up with.  I know why they did it, and that makes it even worse.

I'm with you for the most part here, just commenting on the mind trick thing. This is where my nerd comes into play. The waving of the hand we saw some force users do is a focusing technique. The Force in many ways is like magic in fantasy writing. There is the ability to do magic without the gestures and incantations, it is just either less polished or the work of someone with years of practice. With her not being trained, her not using the gesture would be more appropriate due to that likely being a part of the training as a focus aid.

[Arturo Bandini]

(01-08-2016, 05:38 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: It is weak sauce writing.

Even Anakin had to be trained in the force.  So she would have to go through the same.

The mind trick was not what Ren was doing.  He was interrogating her.  Kind of like Vader did to Luke in RotJ when he realized that Luke had a sister.  That is reading the emotions of the person to get them to betray them. 

Now you could argue that the premise is the same, and that she may have heard of the mind trick and put 2 and 2 together, but again that is very poor writing.

I have heard that theory and if it is true then so what?  Just makes her that much more boring of a character.

It's the start of a trilogy. It's a little bit early to state this is poor writing. We'll have to wait a liitle.

I didn't think Rey was boring. I found she was very fresh and Daisy Ridley was very good. 

[RoyleRedlegs]

(01-08-2016, 06:10 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm with you for the most part here, just commenting on the mind trick thing. This is where my nerd comes into play. The waving of the hand we saw some force users do is a focusing technique. The Force in many ways is like magic in fantasy writing. There is the ability to do magic without the gestures and incantations, it is just either less polished or the work of someone with years of practice. With her not being trained, her not using the gesture would be more appropriate due to that likely being a part of the training as a focus aid.

I think it was just to convey to the fan what exactly was happening and not another traitor situation, to clarify it was Rey doing this not someone else. 

[RoyleRedlegs]

I just think it's funny people are so angsty about Rey being good at this stuff but no one had problems with Luke being able to use the force to destroy the first Death Star, Anakin being 8 and building a bad ass pod racer and winning...

[Belsnickel]

(01-08-2016, 06:33 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I just think it's funny people are so angsty about Rey being good at this stuff but no one had problems with Luke being able to use the force to destroy the first Death Star, Anakin being 8 and building a bad ass pod racer and winning...

See, that is the thing, Anakin was using the force untrained, he just didn't know it. He had no idea what that was all about. But without his force abilities he would never had made it as a pod racer.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(01-08-2016, 06:39 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: See, that is the thing, Anakin was using the force untrained, he just didn't know it. He had no idea what that was all about. But without his force abilities he would never had made it as a pod racer.

I get that, but no one cared. Rey does a few small things and everyone loses their shit over it.
What did she do that was so amazing a feat? 
Beat up a badly wounded, untrained, emotionally unstable guy? 
Use a mind trick on the worst James Bond since George Lazenby?

She really didn't do much that Luke or Anakin didn't do with minimal training...plus you have to factor in how Lucas and others have essentially retconned the Force and how it's used and what it is...

[Sovereign Nation]

(01-08-2016, 06:10 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm with you for the most part here, just commenting on the mind trick thing. This is where my nerd comes into play. The waving of the hand we saw some force users do is a focusing technique. The Force in many ways is like magic in fantasy writing. There is the ability to do magic without the gestures and incantations, it is just either less polished or the work of someone with years of practice. With her not being trained, her not using the gesture would be more appropriate due to that likely being a part of the training as a focus aid.

Of course this is very similar to "She can do it because she doesn't know any better".

If you think back to ESB when Luke is told to pull his Xwing from the swamp, and the iconic line "Do or do not, there is no try" is uttered by Yoda, it is important to note that Luke failed in his attempt and claimed that it is "Impossible".  Only to have Yoda perform the task and an incredulous Luke remark on how "he didn't believe" with Yoda offering up even more wisdom with "And that is why you failed".

Showing that believing in it's ability to work is more important than having the technique to do so.

Which is why this escape scene is so problematic with me.  The actress didn't convey any sense of belief in what she was doing. If anything she was acting out of desperation, which the actress portrayed very well.  It was out of desperation and then shock that it actually worked.  Which doesn't fit with the notion that the belief is more important than the technique.  Sure she said it more firmly the second time, but even then she was unsure of her being successful.  

[Sovereign Nation]

(01-08-2016, 06:33 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I just think it's funny people are so angsty about Rey being good at this stuff but no one had problems with Luke being able to use the force to destroy the first Death Star, Anakin being 8 and building a bad ass pod racer and winning...

This is so wrong.

Luke spent time with Obi Wan, he was getting some instruction.  Incomplete, but enough to have a bit of an understanding on the way it works. 

Do you really think that Luke could beat Vader in ANH? or even in ESB (especially the beginning before going to Dagobah)?

Luke had to go through a crash beginners course in the 1st movie, and Obi Wan reaching beyond death, in order to "Use the force to destroy the first Death Star".  Then in the 2nd movie he had to go through an extensive training period before his confrontation with Vader.  Even then he was outmatched and beaten.

In the 3rd movie, it was established that he spent even more time training under Yoda in order to be as proficient as he was.  He was able to defeat Vader and through his blood ties with him and the call of the light side was ultimately able to defeat Palpatine.

In the prequels, Anakin was able to fly in the pod races, but he wasn't any good as he always lost.  Sure he was calling up the instinctive side of the force to help him fly, but the ability to build his pod racer came more from his love of pod racing and not from any Force using abilities.  It took him training under Obi Wan to become competent in it's use, and even then he was still prone to making mistakes.

BTW... I like so many people, hated the prequels, so to say that "no one had a problem with the plot holes in those" is also wrong.  I didn't like them, much for the same reason I don't like this new movie.  I will go see the next one, but I am not buying into the hype.