I think the schemes are a big issue

[Joelist]

Alas we probably need to junk the schemes on both sides of the ball. Right now neither side has their scheme playing to what their players do well.

On offense, get under center and run power off tackle and inside. Do it enough for the line to develop confidence and aggression - letting linemen actually attack helps cohesion and thus performance. Backfield with RB plus Sample as a sort of FB with 2 WR and a TE (All or Gesicki). Adjust Run/Pass ratio to something closer to 55% pass instead of our current nearly 65% pass. Use route trees designed to get receivers into gaps in zones or more open otherwise.

On defense scrap zone FOR NOW - the players are incapable of running it correctly. Go to a more Zimmer like Press Man with emphasis on press at the LOS. Reduce Hubbard's snaps a lot and give Cedric Johnson more snaps too. Use stunts and other such DL maneuvers to try to give a pass rusher not named Trey a chance. And run more of a 4-3 for now. Again this is less than optimal but it is a reaction to the players being clearly incapable of running zone intelligently.

And (yes) sign a kicker off the street to compete with Mac. If nothing else put pressure on him to fix this nonsense. And on practices the nice guy approach ends. Players get pushed as hard as the rules allow and discipline is enforced and tackling coached constantly. And no matter who you are if you don't tackle you sit.

[Bengalbro]

Biggest issue by far. Everything we do is hard. Passing even though successful is hard. Nothing else is successful

The things other teams are easy.

We somehow need a top 5 QB and 2 top 15 WRs to succeed. No players can ever be hurt or have bad games.

It's the schemes

[*pally*]

We have the most predictable offense in the league.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-29-2024, 06:14 PM)pally Wrote: We have the most predictable offense in the league.

The 4th down and 1 pass to Chase as an example. Everybody in the stadium, at home, even people listening to the radio knew what was coming. They telegraphed the play 100%

And the 3rd down and a foot prior = same story. They knew what was coming.

[Brownshoe]

I've always said that Taylor has a horrible scheme. It frustrates me so much honestly. I feel like both sides of the ball scheme around what they want to see and not their players strengths. Defense can't get home, because they don't have the personnel. Offense gets smothered if we don't have multiple receivers playing like they're the best in the league. I never see a receiver just wide open like I do with other teams. There's no focus on the run game, at all. Everyone knows that the run game helps the pass game and vice versa. Taylor got fired from UCs OC position for a reason.

[KillerGoose]

(10-29-2024, 05:53 PM)Joelist Wrote: On defense scrap zone FOR NOW - the players are incapable of running it correctly.

You can't really do this. There's no team in the NFL that is going to "scrap zone" and run a large majority man. You run into a host of issues, one of which being conditioning. You're also going to be stressing the DB room with the pass rush that Cincinnati has - no one is going to get home. There's nothing you can really do here. If your pass rushers can't pass rush and your corners can't cover, what do you do? There's no scheme that fixes that. Now, I think our DB room is largely fine but the defensive line play has just been atrocious. They DBs are being left on an island. If they want to run more man and blitz more often I am not going to be opposed per se, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that they are going to win more often versus getting beat more often.

Quote:Use stunts and other such DL maneuvers to try to give a pass rusher not named Trey a chance.

They already do this. The defensive line just isn't winning. There's no defense in the NFL that doesn't utilize stunts.

Quote:And run more of a 4-3 for now. Again this is less than optimal but it is a reaction to the players being clearly incapable of running zone intelligently.

The Bengals already run a 4-3. Lou prefers four linemen but will show multiple fronts. The Bengals will show 4-3 under looks against heavy personnel along with 5-2/3-4 looks. Given that NFL defenses are in nickel personnel 60%+ of the time, we're focusing on the wrong thing here. 

There's nothing that is going to fix this team this year in any major way. They have talent deficits that you can't really scheme around, namely on the defensive line. You can try to play with the run game like you mentioned, Cincinnati's offensive line doesn't have good athletes on it so wide zone may not be a great fit. At the end of the day, though, this just isn't a very good team.  

[Joelist]

(10-29-2024, 06:32 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: You can't really do this. There's no team in the NFL that is going to "scrap zone" and run a large majority man. You run into a host of issues, one of which being conditioning. You're also going to be stressing the DB room with the pass rush that Cincinnati has - no one is going to get home. There's nothing you can really do here. If your pass rushers can't pass rush and your corners can't cover, what do you do? There's no scheme that fixes that. Now, I think our DB room is largely fine but the defensive line play has just been atrocious. They DBs are being left on an island. If they want to run more man and blitz more often I am not going to be opposed per se, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that they are going to win more often versus getting beat more often.





They already do this. The defensive line just isn't winning. There's no defense in the NFL that doesn't utilize stunts.




The Bengals already run a 4-3. Lou prefers four linemen but will show multiple fronts. The Bengals will show 4-3 under looks against heavy personnel along with 5-2/3-4 looks. Given that NFL defenses are in nickel personnel 60%+ of the time, we're focusing on the wrong thing here. 

There's nothing that is going to fix this team this year in any major way. They have talent deficits that you can't really scheme around, namely on the defensive line. You can try to play with the run game like you mentioned, Cincinnati's offensive line doesn't have good athletes on it so wide zone may not be a great fit. At the end of the day, though, this just isn't a very good team.  

I don't like largely scrapping zone either, but if your players are incapable of executing it correctly what is the alternative? Keep doing it and keep getting embarrassed? Or change to something easier to execute where they have a better chance to win (how much better is open to debate). 

Also, our 4-3 is more of a 5-2 hybrid. I'm just advocating keeping a third LB out there more often. Or a safety in more of an LB role. Overall the line is "simplify the defense". with the large amount of time our players are out of position they clearly can't process it. Player fixes have too happen in offseason but for now use a simpler defense they can at least execute correctly. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-29-2024, 06:32 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: You can't really do this. There's no team in the NFL that is going to "scrap zone" and run a large majority man. You run into a host of issues, one of which being conditioning. You're also going to be stressing the DB room with the pass rush that Cincinnati has - no one is going to get home. There's nothing you can really do here. If your pass rushers can't pass rush and your corners can't cover, what do you do? There's no scheme that fixes that. Now, I think our DB room is largely fine but the defensive line play has just been atrocious. They DBs are being left on an island. If they want to run more man and blitz more often I am not going to be opposed per se, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that they are going to win more often versus getting beat more often.





They already do this. The defensive line just isn't winning. There's no defense in the NFL that doesn't utilize stunts.




The Bengals already run a 4-3. Lou prefers four linemen but will show multiple fronts. The Bengals will show 4-3 under looks against heavy personnel along with 5-2/3-4 looks. Given that NFL defenses are in nickel personnel 60%+ of the time, we're focusing on the wrong thing here. 

There's nothing that is going to fix this team this year in any major way. They have talent deficits that you can't really scheme around, namely on the defensive line. You can try to play with the run game like you mentioned, Cincinnati's offensive line doesn't have good athletes on it so wide zone may not be a great fit. At the end of the day, though, this just isn't a very good team.  

This really sums it up.

[Joelist]

(10-29-2024, 06:38 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: This really sums it up.

I'm not saying they're that good. I'm just looking for they can get more out of this group. 

[*Synric*]

Jimmy's and Joe's.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-29-2024, 06:42 PM)Joelist Wrote: I'm not saying they're that good. I'm just looking for they can get more out of this group. 

Oh absolutely they can. Now will it be enough? I doubt it

[lone bengal]

Agree on offense feel like the talent of Burrow/Chase / Higgins have masked how bad this scheme is. We’ve never been able to run the ball effectively under Taylor. Initially I thought the terrible O-lime limited us. We blamed and fired Jim Turner now we want Pollack fired. We blamed Mixon for the run game and he goes off in Houston. Zack Moss was good for Indy and now he stinks here. We signed Karras at center who’s been solid ,We sign Orlando Brown at LT who’s been good and was also a mauler in the run game in KC but not here. Mims has been a good pass blocking RT. We have a gigantic offensive line but we can’t gain a yard when needed ? This offense has had some terrible stretches under Taylor. We have A Stud QB , Stud WR1 , stud WR2 , A good LT , good looking RT so far, a solid center, and now ppl are saying we just need guards and a good Rb to make it work. Zac needs an all star team at every position. Threw it on 4 and 1 behind the line week 1 vs. New England didn’t learn his lessons and does it again in a huge moment this week out of a timeout mind you.

[BengalsBong]

(10-29-2024, 06:38 PM)Joelist Wrote: I don't like largely scrapping zone either, but if your players are incapable of executing it correctly what is the alternative? Keep doing it and keep getting embarrassed? Or change to something easier to execute where they have a better chance to win (how much better is open to debate). 

Also, our 4-3 is more of a 5-2 hybrid. I'm just advocating keeping a third LB out there more often. Or a safety in more of an LB role. Overall the line is "simplify the defense". with the large amount of time our players are out of position they clearly can't process it. Player fixes have too happen in offseason but for now use a simpler defense they can at least execute correctly. 

People just want to stick to the same thing and stay at the bottom of the league in defense and not even attempt to try a new concept.

Switching to the 4-3 would add bigger bodies to stop the run which we struggle at as well as gives you better pass rushers and a better way to disguise our blitz.

Bottom line is what we are doing now does not work and something needs to change. I care less what most of the NFL is doing {running nickel} we need to win in the AFC north which is built much different than the rest of the NFL.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-29-2024, 08:09 PM)Synric Wrote: Jimmy's and Joe's.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-30-2024, 06:59 AM)BengalsBong Wrote: People just want to stick to the same thing and stay at the bottom of the league in defense and not even attempt to try a new concept.

Switching to the 4-3 would add bigger bodies to stop the run which we struggle at as well as gives you better pass rushers and a better way to disguise our blitz.

Bottom line is what we are doing now does not work and something needs to change. I care less what most of the NFL is doing {running nickel} we need to win in the AFC north which is built much different than the rest of the NFL.

All of those things are true, and the Bengals base defense is a 4-3. The problem with running in base often is that teams then are able to feast on the middle of the field with throws to the TEs and RBs on the edges.

[TheCincinnatiKid]

(10-29-2024, 06:14 PM)Bengalbro Wrote: Biggest issue by far. Everything we do is hard. Passing even though successful is hard. Nothing else is successful

The things other teams are easy.

We somehow need a top 5 QB and 2 top 15 WRs to succeed. No players can ever be hurt or have bad games.

It's the schemes

This is it. The fact that we HAVE TO have one of the best QBs in the game, and two outstanding WRs to have any success, tells you just how badly this team is built. You obviously need talent to succeed, but because of the salary cap you do need to find ways to win with 'average'. If Burrow and the WRs aren't at it, we don't beat good teams right now.

Have to find a way to shape this roster, and our gameplans, so that we do more with the run game and can do something on defence. We're seeing it with the Chiefs right now, you need to be able to win in a variety of ways (And I don't mean refs...). Mahomes is having a poor season and they're undefeated because they aren't totally reliant on him. They are good in the other facets and are one step ahead in terms of coaching/schemeing. We're not there.

[higgy100]

(10-29-2024, 06:32 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: You can't really do this. There's no team in the NFL that is going to "scrap zone" and run a large majority man. You run into a host of issues, one of which being conditioning. You're also going to be stressing the DB room with the pass rush that Cincinnati has - no one is going to get home. There's nothing you can really do here. If your pass rushers can't pass rush and your corners can't cover, what do you do? There's no scheme that fixes that. Now, I think our DB room is largely fine but the defensive line play has just been atrocious. They DBs are being left on an island. If they want to run more man and blitz more often I am not going to be opposed per se, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that they are going to win more often versus getting beat more often.





They already do this. The defensive line just isn't winning. There's no defense in the NFL that doesn't utilize stunts.




The Bengals already run a 4-3. Lou prefers four linemen but will show multiple fronts. The Bengals will show 4-3 under looks against heavy personnel along with 5-2/3-4 looks. Given that NFL defenses are in nickel personnel 60%+ of the time, we're focusing on the wrong thing here. 

There's nothing that is going to fix this team this year in any major way. They have talent deficits that you can't really scheme around, namely on the defensive line. You can try to play with the run game like you mentioned, Cincinnati's offensive line doesn't have good athletes on it so wide zone may not be a great fit. At the end of the day, though, this just isn't a very good team.  

To add to this if you look at the amount of really good running QB's they've faced it makes it even more difficult because DB's also have to turn back to see if the QB has escaped the pocked or broken contain. I believe it's 6 out of 8 games they have faced both an elusive QB and one that will also take off because that's a part of their offense. 

So now you have a well below average pass rush, LB's that also don't seem to get enough depth in their drop backs (probably due to staying home more with QB's running the ball due to breaking contain) and DB's that have to stay with WR's too long. Just a bad bad recipe for a defense to be successful unless you're really good in the redzone (which they were in their playoff years) and/or you force a lot of turnovers.

[*Synric*]

Bengals already run alot of man coverage, 3-4 alignments, and are a power rushing team with lots of different Counters. The heavy counter rushing offense is new to 2024 over the last few years where it was heavy Duo, inside zone weak (damn near identical to duo), and traps.

[Mer]

(10-30-2024, 08:43 AM)TheCincinnatiKid Wrote: This is it. The fact that we HAVE TO have one of the best QBs in the game, and two outstanding WRs to have any success, tells you just how badly this team is built. You obviously need talent to succeed, but because of the salary cap you do need to find ways to win with 'average'. If Burrow and the WRs aren't at it, we don't beat good teams right now.

Have to find a way to shape this roster, and our gameplans, so that we do more with the run game and can do something on defence. We're seeing it with the Chiefs right now, you need to be able to win in a variety of ways (And I don't mean refs...). Mahomes is having a poor season and they're undefeated because they aren't totally reliant on him. They are good in the other facets and are one step ahead in terms of coaching/schemeing. We're not there.

And I fear we never will be "there" under Taylor.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-29-2024, 06:32 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: There's nothing that is going to fix this team this year in any major way. They have talent deficits that you can't really scheme around, namely on the defensive line. You can try to play with the run game like you mentioned, Cincinnati's offensive line doesn't have good athletes on it so wide zone may not be a great fit. At the end of the day, though, this just isn't a very good team.  

Goose, you seem like an insightful individual that knows a thing or two about football. How much difference, in your opinion, would it make if we had someone else calling plays on defense? Whether that's firing Lou and promoting within or bringing in an outside replacement?

Also, what if Lou was replaced with someone mid-season as our new DC (not interim) and they tried to implement their schemes each week and during the bye week but by-and-large keeping Lou's system? How much, if any, positive/negative effect do you think any of the potential replacement options would make?