Bengals Add Defense

[kevin]

Bengals on Bye Week, so I'll play early Draft Pick Game.

I'm guessing Bengals pick between pick 11 and pick 20.   I don't see much on offense.  I do see two on Defense and Bengals D is awful.  

Safety Malaki Starks of Georgia with good size at 6' 1" and 205 lbs.
D Line Nic Scourton of Texas A&M at 6'4" and 285 lbs.  

Those are the best available athletes I see on the board between picks 11 and 20, and Bengals could use help at DB and D Line.

There is a third player.  Emeka Egbuka the WR out of Ohio State at 6'1" and 205 lbs.  If both Boyd and Higgins are gone and they are smart enough to lock in Chase long term, a Round One WR might fill some of that void.  It's money smart because they got Boyd, Higgins and Chase cheap for a while on rookie contracts. So bringing  in a good rookie to help Chase and Burrow is money salary cap smart.  

Well, that's what I see on the board where Bengals might pick.  A choice between a Safety, a D Lineman or a WR.  With the Draft 5 months away, it's hard to say, just killing time on Bengals Bye Week.  Bengals could use Defense or a WR after losing Boyd and Higgins.  One added thought.  Boyd is not tearing up the NFL, but he fit in here.  Could Bengals get Boyd back on The Cheap ?  I mean, much less than when he went free agent.  Burrow can still get him the ball.  Some players only fit in on a certain team. Maybe Boyd is better as a Bengals with Burrow. Don't rule out getting Boyd back much cheaper than Chase or Higgins or even what Boyd wanted when he left. If his new team doesn't want him, Bengals could get him back and it could be a good fit for Boyd and Burrow and Bengals.  Salary Cap to have good players at all positions. 

Now 2 Players that I think will be gone when Bengals pick, but I'll add them. 

The Big DT out of Kentucky, Deone Walker, 6'6" and 345 lbs could add the beef needed at DT

Tetairoa McMillan, the WR of Arizona at 6'5 and 212 lbs will be off the boards, but just in case Bengals can get him, great size and talent to fill voids left losing Boyd and Higgins.  

Yes, I'm saying Higgins gone, just as most of NFL is. 

[pulses]

Boyd was gone last year WTF

[puddycat]

If we aren't winning with Tee, I don't think we're going to win with another 1st round WR. JMO.
My list in the top half of round 1 is: Graham DT, Carter Edge, WJohnson CB, Pearce Edge
I'm tempted by Jeanty, but too many other needs.
Very willing to trade back and still target an Edge or CB1, and don't feel horrible drafting a backup OT who can start at OG.
I'm seeing a lot of value into early day 3 since we're also looking at IOL, Safety, and WR.

[*bengalfan74*]

I agree there's very little chance Higgins is back. This team needs a crap ton of help on both the D and O lines and that should be their focus. In other words WR is down on my list of things to fix in draft.

[kevin]

First, I know Boyd has been gone.  I'm saying that if Higgins goes also, that is a problem.  Chase needs locked in long term.  Burrow needs more pass targets.  So I would not say a WR is low on the needs list in the 2025 draft, just the opposite.  Bengals better be bringing in a top rookie WR early in the draft so that Burrow has pass catchers to go back to Super Bowl.

But my post is Round One Defense is possible.  I have no College Favorites of Rah, Rah, Sis, Boom, Bah.  I'm looking at CBS Top Prospects and who is on the list from #1 to #20.   Mostly #10 to #20.   CBS has the Kentucky DT, the Georgia Safety and the Texas A &M Edge Rusher of true D Lineman Size.  Now the DT is in CBS top 10.  The Safety and Edge Rusher are in the Top 20.  So Bengals could be getting much needed Defensive help.  

However let's not kid ourselves that WR is not needed in 2025 draft.  Bengals could use a top WR rookie early in the draft also.  I've seen this team when they were a one trick pony with Chad or AJ Green and they were double and triple teamed and the team was awful.  This team went Super Bowl in 2021 season because they had all those top WR's for Burrow to throw to, not a one trick pony.  College Ball you might win with just one good WR, but not in the NFL. So in one of the early rounds, a WR. 

[*ochocincos*]

(11-25-2024, 02:28 AM)pulses Wrote: Boyd was gone last year WTF

He saying there's still a void from Boyd's departure.
Add Higgins departure and it really becomes a problem.

[pulses]

(11-26-2024, 04:21 PM)ochocincos Wrote: He saying there's still a void from Boyd's departure.
Add Higgins departure and it really becomes a problem.

I agree to a point. But if the DL and OL had played better this year we would be in the playoffs and that's without Boyd and Higgins not playing much. I do agree that we need to draft a WR EARLY in this draft. Also they need to sign someone in FA because Irwin just isn't that good and Jones can't stay healthy he's a BUST.

[Whatever]

(11-25-2024, 09:38 AM)kevin Wrote: First, I know Boyd has been gone.  I'm saying that if Higgins goes also, that is a problem.  Chase needs locked in long term.  Burrow needs more pass targets.  So I would not say a WR is low on the needs list in the 2025 draft, just the opposite.  Bengals better be bringing in a top rookie WR early in the draft so that Burrow has pass catchers to go back to Super Bowl.

But my post is Round One Defense is possible.  I have no College Favorites of Rah, Rah, Sis, Boom, Bah.  I'm looking at CBS Top Prospects and who is on the list from #1 to #20.   Mostly #10 to #20.   CBS has the Kentucky DT, the Georgia Safety and the Texas A &M Edge Rusher of true D Lineman Size.  Now the DT is in CBS top 10.  The Safety and Edge Rusher are in the Top 20.  So Bengals could be getting much needed Defensive help.  

However let's not kid ourselves that WR is not needed in 2025 draft.  Bengals could use a top WR rookie early in the draft also.  I've seen this team when they were a one trick pony with Chad or AJ Green and they were double and triple teamed and the team was awful.  This team went Super Bowl in 2021 season because they had all those top WR's for Burrow to throw to, not a one trick pony.  College Ball you might win with just one good WR, but not in the NFL. So in one of the early rounds, a WR. 

The thing that gives me pause about defense in the first is that out of 10 Days 1/2 picks over the last three drafts, 8 have been on defense.  Throwing premium draft capital at the defense has not worked.  Almost to a man, those picks have underperformed, for a variety of reasons.  

Realistically, the Bengals are at a point where they need to figure out what's broken, Lou's scheme or their ability to draft defensive players.  The only way you're finding that out is to get rid of Lou and see if the loads of young talent we have on defense responds.  

Obviously, we need pass rush help, but it's a deep class for Edge rushers and DT's.  Per the Consensus Big Board, there are currently 9 Edge's in the Top 50 prospects and 16 in the Top 100.  For DT's, there's 7 in the Top 50 and 13 in the Top 100.  

Whoever we take in the 1st, they need to be a stud.  Especially with us currently picking 10th, we need a slam dunk, no matter the position.  Regardless of needs, a CeeDee Lamb, Travis Kelce, Joe Thuney, or Saquon Barkley helps this team a helluva lot more than another Myles Murphy.

[*ochocincos*]

Kevin I like the players you mentioned.

Scourton isn't quite at the 10.0 sack totals he had last year with Purdue, but he's at 5.0 through 11 games and you can see his high ceiling on game film.
Starks could be the best coverage FS in this draft class, and I feel there are quite a few good safeties in this class, so he could be a great selection.

I'm not overly thrilled with the WR class this year compared to last year, but if McMillan is there, I think he could be a great Higgins replacement.
Burden is a slot, but maybe the Bengals prioritize slot and have Burton and Iosivas compete for outside WR as the 3rd/4th option in the offense instead.
Egbuka I think is well rounded, versatile WR but he doesn't seem elite in one particular area, so I can see him falling to mid-late 1st or maybe even early 2nd. He's very good though and I would be happy to have him.

I could also easily be sold on either Colston Loveland or Tyler Warren to become the new 2nd option in the offense.
I've always been a sucker for an elite TE though, as I love the offensive style with a guy like Kelce, Gronk, Graham, etc.
Either of these two dudes could allow the Bengals to go to 12 personnel a majority of the time.

Walter Nolen is probably the DT to target if Mason Graham isn't available, but Mason Graham is maybe the only blue chip DT in this draft class. Likely going Top 10 though if not Top 5. Nolen should be available when the Bengals pick.

I doubt Bengals would pick an IOL in the teens, but there may be one or two. I feel like it's going to be defense or pass catcher in Rd 1 though and maybe IOL on Day 2.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-27-2024, 11:36 AM)Whatever Wrote: The thing that gives me pause about defense in the first is that out of 10 Days 1/2 picks over the last three drafts, 8 have been on defense.  Throwing premium draft capital at the defense has not worked.  Almost to a man, those picks have underperformed, for a variety of reasons.  

Realistically, the Bengals are at a point where they need to figure out what's broken, Lou's scheme or their ability to draft defensive players.  The only way you're finding that out is to get rid of Lou and see if the loads of young talent we have on defense responds.  

Obviously, we need pass rush help, but it's a deep class for Edge rushers and DT's.  Per the Consensus Big Board, there are currently 9 Edge's in the Top 50 prospects and 16 in the Top 100.  For DT's, there's 7 in the Top 50 and 13 in the Top 100.  

Whoever we take in the 1st, they need to be a stud.  Especially with us currently picking 10th, we need a slam dunk, no matter the position.  Regardless of needs, a CeeDee Lamb, Travis Kelce, Joe Thuney, or Saquon Barkley helps this team a helluva lot more than another Myles Murphy.

You know, I thought that as well, for a while. Then it hit me that the failure with the defensive picks has been going on since the Marvin Lewis days. I'm really starting to get on board with the bigger problem being with the talent evaluators/identifiers and the person making the actual selections. Something is definitely wrong with their board, and we need to figure out if the scouts can identify guys with particular skill sets that fit particular schemes and are mis grading players on the team's big board, or if it's simply Duke ignoring the board.

That's not to say that the position coaches haven't dropped the ball as well. It's supposedly their livelihood to develop talent to the maximum of their capabilities. 

[Whatever]

(11-27-2024, 12:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Kevin I like the players you mentioned.

Scourton isn't quite at the 10.0 sack totals he had last year with Purdue, but he's at 5.0 through 11 games and you can see his high ceiling on game film.
Starks could be the best coverage FS in this draft class, and I feel there are quite a few good safeties in this class, so he could be a great selection.

I'm not overly thrilled with the WR class this year compared to last year, but if McMillan is there, I think he could be a great Higgins replacement.
Burden is a slot, but maybe the Bengals prioritize slot and have Burton and Iosivas compete for outside WR as the 3rd/4th option in the offense instead.
Egbuka I think is well rounded, versatile WR but he doesn't seem elite in one particular area, so I can see him falling to mid-late 1st or maybe even early 2nd. He's very good though and I would be happy to have him.

I could also easily be sold on either Colston Loveland or Tyler Warren to become the new 2nd option in the offense.
I've always been a sucker for an elite TE though, as I love the offensive style with a guy like Kelce, Gronk, Graham, etc.
Either of these two dudes could allow the Bengals to go to 12 personnel a majority of the time.

Walter Nolen is probably the DT to target if Mason Graham isn't available, but Mason Graham is maybe the only blue chip DT in this draft class. Likely going Top 10 though if not Top 5. Nolen should be available when the Bengals pick.

I doubt Bengals would pick an IOL in the teens, but there may be one or two. I feel like it's going to be defense or pass catcher in Rd 1 though and maybe IOL on Day 2.

Kenneth Grant is one to look at if you're looking for a 1st round DT.  He's an insanely athletic 339 pound NT with tremendous fist step quickness and burst.  As a freshman, he allegedly ran a sub 5 second 40...at 360 pounds!  Surprised he hasn't really been discussed with as much chatter as there was for Sweat last year.

[Whatever]

(11-27-2024, 01:24 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You know, I thought that as well, for a while. Then it hit me that the failure with the defensive picks has been going on since the Marvin Lewis days. I'm really starting to get on board with the bigger problem being with the talent evaluators/identifiers and the person making the actual selections. Something is definitely wrong with their board, and we need to figure out if the scouts can identify guys with particular skill sets that fit particular schemes and are mis grading players on the team's big board, or if it's simply Duke ignoring the board.

That's not to say that the position coaches haven't dropped the ball as well. It's supposedly their livelihood to develop talent to the maximum of their capabilities. 

Eh, I don't see it.  Marvin's last draft yielded Bates in the 2nd and Hubbard in the 3rd.  2017, they hit on Lawson. '16 had WJIII and Billings.   I mean, there were some misses in there, like Willis and Jefferson but you'll have those.  

[SunsetBengal]

(11-27-2024, 01:37 PM)Whatever Wrote: Eh, I don't see it.  Marvin's last draft yielded Bates in the 2nd and Hubbard in the 3rd.  2017, they hit on Lawson. '16 had WJIII and Billings.   I mean, there were some misses in there, like Willis and Jefferson but you'll have those.  

The only noteworthy player for the Bengals that they hit on was Bates, and to a lesser degree, Hubbard. While here Lawson was a bust, and continued to be a bust with the Jets. WJ III was nothing special for a 1st round corner, no All-Pro or Pro Bowls on his resume, and Billings never had any real success until he wasn't with the Bengals any longer. But those last four players listed are great examples of picks that most of us really loved when we drafted them, yet none of them came to fruition.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-27-2024, 01:27 PM)Whatever Wrote: Kenneth Grant is one to look at if you're looking for a 1st round DT.  He's an insanely athletic 339 pound NT with tremendous fist step quickness and burst.  As a freshman, he allegedly ran a sub 5 second 40...at 360 pounds!  Surprised he hasn't really been discussed with as much chatter as there was for Sweat last year.

Isn't he more of a NT though?

I think we all came to the conclusion Jenkins was going eventually cover Reader's role given he's more of a run stopper and now we want a more prolific, proven pass rushing DT to replace Hill.

Between Grant and Graham, Graham has been more of the pass rusher whereas Grant is more of the run stuffer and double-team NT type, no?

I know Grant hasn't always lined up at NT, but maybe I just haven't watched enough of the Michigan games to see how much he's truly affecting the pass and just unfairly labeling him as a NT because of his size.

[Whatever]

(11-27-2024, 02:51 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Isn't he more of a NT though?

I think we all came to the conclusion Jenkins was going eventually cover Reader's role given he's more of a run stopper and now we want a more prolific, proven pass rushing DT to replace Hill.

Between Grant and Graham, Graham has been more of the pass rusher whereas Grant is more of the run stuffer and double-team NT type, no?

I know Grant hasn't always lined up at NT, but maybe I just haven't watched enough of the Michigan games to see how much he's truly affecting the pass and just unfairly labeling him as a NT because of his size.

Jenkins struggled with double teams in college and wound up in his ass multiple times when double teamed as a pro in preseason.

Jenkins is a run stuffing 3 tech with a great athletic profile(8.94 RAS) that needs to develop as a pass rusher.  He's a similar prospect to Nolen, though Nolen has shown better speed to power.  

[Whatever]

(11-27-2024, 01:45 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The only noteworthy player for the Bengals that they hit on was Bates, and to a lesser degree, Hubbard. While here Lawson was a bust, and continued to be a bust with the Jets. WJ III was nothing special for a 1st round corner, no All-Pro or Pro Bowls on his resume, and Billings never had any real success until he wasn't with the Bengals any longer. But those last four players listed are great examples of picks that most of us really loved when we drafted them, yet none of them came to fruition.

Well, if a guy has to be a Pro Bowl type to be a hit, you're going to miss most of the time.

Lawson was routinely Top 5-10 in the league in pass rush win rate while he was here.  I still remember the gnashing of teeth when we lost him in FA and got Hendrickson.  

WJIII was par for the course for 1st round CB in the Marvin era.  Solid, but not a spectacular starter(except for his insane sophomore year).

Billings rated 69 and 71 his last two years, here.  Besides which, if he had greater success elsewhere, isn't that a smoking gun that coaching was the issue, not talent evaluation?  Keep in mind Zimmer was replaced with Guenther in '14.  

[*ochocincos*]

(11-27-2024, 03:18 PM)Whatever Wrote: Jenkins struggled with double teams in college and wound up in his ass multiple times when double teamed as a pro in preseason.

Jenkins is a run stuffing 3 tech with a great athletic profile(8.94 RAS) that needs to develop as a pass rusher.  He's a similar prospect to Nolen, though Nolen has shown better speed to power.  

IMO shouldn't have taken just a run stopping 3T so early in the draft, but I agree that's about what Jenkins is.
I guess I thought he would develop into Reader's role because he wasn't a strong pass rusher.

[Whatever]

(11-27-2024, 03:53 PM)ochocincos Wrote: IMO don't need a run stopping 3T, but I agree that's about what Jenkins is.
I guess I thought he would develop into Reader's role because he wasn't a strong pass rusher.

I remember thinking the same, and Jenkins even mentioned something about it in an interview, but watching him get wrecked by double teams in preseason kinda killed it for me.  

The attraction for Grant is that he's actually a good pass rusher for a NT, possessing both the size and power to collapse the pocket and the burst and quickness to win outright.  Plus, he actually already has a fair number of pass rush moves to work with, already.  My feeling there is that with Hill and Tufele hitting FA, NT becomes a point of concern.  Grant could rotate with Jackson on run downs and improve the interior pass rush in passing situations.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

I like this Draft for a lot of our needs. WR isn't very deep in this one though, so I agree that taking one early might be the best plan.

Trey Harris or McMillan would be great Tee replacements. A TE like Tyler Warren might make it to our 2nd round pick and would love
to get him there if we go Defense in the first with a pass rusher or a DT like Grant or Graham.

[*Synric*]

(11-27-2024, 03:53 PM)ochocincos Wrote: IMO shouldn't have taken just a run stopping 3T so early in the draft, but I agree that's about what Jenkins is.
I guess I thought he would develop into Reader's role because he wasn't a strong pass rusher.

There is a definitely a path for Kris Jenkins to develop into a Harrison Phillips type A-Gap defender.