2024 Defensive Personnel Failures

[*ochocincos*]

It's no secret the biggest contributor for this letdown of a season is the defense.
They did allow a ton of yards last year (31st in yards allowed) but 21st in Point Allowed.
Compare that to 2022 when they were 6th in Points Allowed, 16th in Yards Allowed.
However, they've hit a new low with some key veteran departures and new guys replacing them - 31st in Points Allowed, 27th in Yards Allowed.

Key changes in 2024:
Rankins - Basically a waste of a signing. He may not quite be on the level of Trae Waynes bad signing, but he's gotta be up there.
Stone - Dude can't cover for s**t, nor tackle. 16 missed tackles, 103.7 passer rating allowed. While Hill was also bad in coverage last year, he didn't have nearly as many missed tackles.
Bell - A shell of himself. Should have left Battle starting at SS the entire season and maybe have Bell as backup or something.
Jenkins - Kind of a letdown for a 2nd round DT. He's doing ok, but not offering much pass rush. Only 7 total pressures in 177 pass rush reps.
Jackson - Preseason injury slowed his progression, but he has 6 total pressures on 80 pass rush reps.

The Awuzie departure is also apparent, at least with Hill and Turner now both out.
CTB has abruptly declined, allowing a 128.1 passer rating and 15.4 yards per reception.
Newton simply was not ready to fill in as a 4th round rookie.

The last problem is DL growth of current dudes.
Hubbard has taken a big step back. While he was never a sack artist, he was normally good for 6-8 a year. He's at just 2.0 through 12 games. Age and injuries might be catching up to him.
Murphy has been invisible in his 2nd year, not having registered a single sack through 8 games.
Ossai may be starting to come on late, having registered 2 sacks the past 2 games but 0 in the first 10 games.
Bengals also did not get any growth from Zach Carter, ultimately resulting in his release this year, his 3rd season.
Amusingly, Carter signed with LV after his release and he's played in 3 games, already registering a sack for LV at DE.
Maybe he just couldn't ever grow into a true 4-3 DT like we hoped and is better at DE.

I'm sure talent identification is part of the problem because of the guys that were added, but there's also a clear problem with talent development.
Guys like Murphy, Carter, and Ossai had shown some raw talent in college, but they needed refinement by NFL coaching to get them to their ceilings.
Guys like Rankins and Stone were just flat out bad fits for what the team needed. Stone's lack of speed and athleticism were never going to fit in Anarumo's defense. Rankins was in no way, shape, or form a replacement for Reader.

Hopefully we see the team willing to part ways with Rankins and Stone this offseason and put that toward a couple better fits for immediate FA contributors.
And then they need to get a couple promising pass rushers on the DL in the draft to go along with it.
Some coaches need replaced as well though, as they've been given a few years and haven't gotten any improvements.

[Au165]

(12-02-2024, 01:06 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It's no secret the biggest contributor for this letdown of a season is the defense.
They did allow a ton of yards last year (31st in yards allowed) but 21st in Point Allowed.
Compare that to 2022 when they were 6th in Points Allowed, 16th in Yards Allowed.
However, they've hit a new low with some key veteran departures and new guys replacing them - 31st in Points Allowed, 27th in Yards Allowed.

Key changes in 2024:
Rankins - Basically a waste of a signing. He may not quite be on the level of Trae Waynes bad signing, but he's gotta be up there.
Stone - Dude can't cover for s**t, nor tackle. 16 missed tackles, 103.7 passer rating allowed. While Hill was also bad in coverage last year, he didn't have nearly as many missed tackles.
Bell - A shell of himself. Should have left Battle starting at SS the entire season and maybe have Bell as backup or something.
Jenkins - Kind of a letdown for a 2nd round DT. He's doing ok, but not offering much pass rush. Only 7 total pressures in 177 pass rush reps.
Jackson - Preseason injury slowed his progression, but he has 6 total pressures on 80 pass rush reps.

The Awuzie departure is also apparent, at least with Hill and Turner now both out.
CTB has abruptly declined, allowing a 128.1 passer rating and 15.4 yards per reception.
Newton simply was not ready to fill in as a 4th round rookie.

The last problem is DL growth of current dudes.
Hubbard has taken a big step back. While he was never a sack artist, he was normally good for 6-8 a year. He's at just 2.0 through 12 games. Age and injuries might be catching up to him.
Murphy has been invisible in his 2nd year, not having registered a single sack through 8 games.
Ossai may be starting to come on late, having registered 2 sacks the past 2 games but 0 in the first 10 games.
Bengals also did not get any growth from Zach Carter, ultimately resulting in his release this year, his 3rd season.
Amusingly, Carter signed with LV after his release and he's played in 3 games, already registering a sack for LV at DE.
Maybe he just couldn't ever grow into a true 4-3 DT like we hoped and is better at DE.

I'm sure talent identification is part of the problem because of the guys that were added, but there's also a clear problem with talent development.
Guys like Murphy, Carter, and Ossai had shown some raw talent in college, but they needed refinement by NFL coaching to get them to their ceilings.
Guys like Rankins and Stone were just flat out bad fits for what the team needed. Stone's lack of speed and athleticism were never going to fit in Anarumo's defense. Rankins was in no way, shape, or form a replacement for Reader.

Hopefully we see the team willing to part ways with Rankins and Stone this offseason and put that toward a couple better fits for immediate FA contributors.
And then they need to get a couple promising pass rushers on the DL in the draft to go along with it.
Some coaches need replaced as well though, as they've been given a few years and haven't gotten any improvements.

I actually feel decently optimistic about Jenkins and Jackson. I think both of their injuries slowed their progress but you can see flashes which is more than we can say for most of our rookie selections up front over the last few seasons. Stone and Rankins were just bad swings at guys who flashed on contract years and were products of systems that let them excel. I think both will be gone this year along with Bell as we take another swing at FA. To be fair though, we have had luck in the past trying that approach with guys like Trey, Awuzie, Bell (version 1.0).

Awuzie was never really the same dude after being hurt so I think that ship had kind of sailed. We did however put a ton of faith on internal talent rather than bringing in at least one outside vet to try and provide some help. It's unfortunate Hill and Turner got hurt because both seemed to be coming into their own a bit but the sample size was too small to really know. Now we are in a weird situation where we are going to have to go get a vet in the offseason because we don't know. 

The edge guys are just a bit of a lost cause at this point. Murphy has great get off but still is too raw as a pass rusher and can't win consistently. Hubbard is shot and the fanbase is going to need to accept he is a straight cut candidate, he makes WAY too much money. It has been said ad nauseam around here but it really is insane how bad this team has been at drafting both sides of the line. In a league where premier rushers are super expensive, you HAVE to be able to atleast draft one decent rusher to make things work. The fact we haven't drafted a good pass rusher in a decade is an indictment on the people, their evaluation process, and the organization as a whole. 

The reason this whole thing needs blown up is because they can't begin to fix this thing from the front and if you have proven you can't build the foundation after so long trying then someone else needs to get a shot. In a perfect world it would start with firing Tobin, but I don't think they will do it, so instead you fire Anarumo and his whole staff and start from scratch. If we are making a schematic shift get the new staff in immediately and figure out what the shopping list looks like. Then we need to go create some magic in FA, specifically on the edge and try to add someone who can provide some juice opposite Trey and a veteran in the secondary. 

[*bfine32*]

Geno Stone is so bad he makes me miss Nick Scott

[*ochocincos*]

(12-02-2024, 02:18 PM)Au165 Wrote: I actually feel decently optimistic about Jenkins and Jackson. I think both of their injuries slowed their progress but you can see flashes which is more than we can say for most of our rookie selections up front over the last few seasons. Stone and Rankins were just bad swings at guys who flashed on contract years and were products of systems that let them excel. I think both will be gone this year along with Bell as we take another swing at FA. To be fair though, we have had luck in the past trying that approach with guys like Trey, Awuzie, Bell (version 1.0).

Awuzie was never really the same dude after being hurt so I think that ship had kind of sailed. We did however put a ton of faith on internal talent rather than bringing in at least one outside vet to try and provide some help. It's unfortunate Hill and Turner got hurt because both seemed to be coming into their own a bit but the sample size was too small to really know. Now we are in a weird situation where we are going to have to go get a vet in the offseason because we don't know. 

The edge guys are just a bit of a lost cause at this point. Murphy has great get off but still is too raw as a pass rusher and can't win consistently. Hubbard is shot and the fanbase is going to need to accept he is a straight cut candidate, he makes WAY too much money. It has been said ad nauseam around here but it really is insane how bad this team has been at drafting both sides of the line. In a league where premier rushers are super expensive, you HAVE to be able to atleast draft one decent rusher to make things work. The fact we haven't drafted a good pass rusher in a decade is an indictment on the people, their evaluation process, and the organization as a whole. 

The reason this whole thing needs blown up is because they can't begin to fix this thing from the front and if you have proven you can't build the foundation after so long trying then someone else needs to get a shot. In a perfect world it would start with firing Tobin, but I don't think they will do it, so instead you fire Anarumo and his whole staff and start from scratch. If we are making a schematic shift get the new staff in immediately and figure out what the shopping list looks like. Then we need to go create some magic in FA, specifically on the edge and try to add someone who can provide some juice opposite Trey and a veteran in the secondary. 

You're right, both Jenkins and Jackson have shown flashes, but not really as pass rushers.
They need to add more juice inside.
Heck, Anarumo also needs to incorporate more stunts and moving around players so they can have more ways to win.

With DE, Ossai is too little, too late. He's set to hit FA after this season, and frankly he hasn't shown enough to warrant keeping around.
Same with Cam Sample.
For Murphy, I hate to say it, but this is what you get when you take a more raw player. Maybe though Murphy needs into his 3rd year to really get going like Josh Allen did with BUF.
I'd seriously look at giving Murphy a majority of the reps over Hubbard the rest of the year to try to expedite his development.

Even if the Bengals keep Hendrickson, Hubbard, and Murphy for next year, they need 1-2 new additions (depending on what people think of Cedric Johnson).

I think we're seeing what can happen at CB if you have too many guys on their rookie deals, especially if you have injuries.
I am surprised they didn't add a veteran when Turner went down.
Too much put on Newton and Ivey too early, IMO.
Maybe add a cheaper vet (Eli Apple type of guy) to be CB4 if anything next year.

[Sled21]

(12-02-2024, 01:06 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It's no secret the biggest contributor for this letdown of a season is the defense.
They did allow a ton of yards last year (31st in yards allowed) but 21st in Point Allowed.
Compare that to 2022 when they were 6th in Points Allowed, 16th in Yards Allowed.
However, they've hit a new low with some key veteran departures and new guys replacing them - 31st in Points Allowed, 27th in Yards Allowed.

Key changes in 2024:
Rankins - Basically a waste of a signing. He may not quite be on the level of Trae Waynes bad signing, but he's gotta be up there.
Stone - Dude can't cover for s**t, nor tackle. 16 missed tackles, 103.7 passer rating allowed. While Hill was also bad in coverage last year, he didn't have nearly as many missed tackles.
Bell - A shell of himself. Should have left Battle starting at SS the entire season and maybe have Bell as backup or something.
Jenkins - Kind of a letdown for a 2nd round DT. He's doing ok, but not offering much pass rush. Only 7 total pressures in 177 pass rush reps.
Jackson - Preseason injury slowed his progression, but he has 6 total pressures on 80 pass rush reps.

The Awuzie departure is also apparent, at least with Hill and Turner now both out.
CTB has abruptly declined, allowing a 128.1 passer rating and 15.4 yards per reception.
Newton simply was not ready to fill in as a 4th round rookie.

The last problem is DL growth of current dudes.
Hubbard has taken a big step back. While he was never a sack artist, he was normally good for 6-8 a year. He's at just 2.0 through 12 games. Age and injuries might be catching up to him.
Murphy has been invisible in his 2nd year, not having registered a single sack through 8 games.
Ossai may be starting to come on late, having registered 2 sacks the past 2 games but 0 in the first 10 games.
Bengals also did not get any growth from Zach Carter, ultimately resulting in his release this year, his 3rd season.
Amusingly, Carter signed with LV after his release and he's played in 3 games, already registering a sack for LV at DE.
Maybe he just couldn't ever grow into a true 4-3 DT like we hoped and is better at DE.

I'm sure talent identification is part of the problem because of the guys that were added, but there's also a clear problem with talent development.
Guys like Murphy, Carter, and Ossai had shown some raw talent in college, but they needed refinement by NFL coaching to get them to their ceilings.
Guys like Rankins and Stone were just flat out bad fits for what the team needed. Stone's lack of speed and athleticism were never going to fit in Anarumo's defense. Rankins was in no way, shape, or form a replacement for Reader.

Hopefully we see the team willing to part ways with Rankins and Stone this offseason and put that toward a couple better fits for immediate FA contributors.
And then they need to get a couple promising pass rushers on the DL in the draft to go along with it.
Some coaches need replaced as well though, as they've been given a few years and haven't gotten any improvements.

Hubbard has been playing the entire season hurt. Whether that is a good idea or not is another matter. Losing Sample for the season hurt as well. Murphy is not living up to his expectations. I still have hopes for Ossai, and he had a nice field goal block yesterday. Haven't seen that in awhile. Stone should be shown the door, he brings nothing to the table. Same with Rankins. I think Jenkins and Jackson will develop into decent tackles. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-02-2024, 03:06 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Hubbard has been playing the entire season hurt. Whether that is a good idea or not is another matter. Losing Sample for the season hurt as well. Murphy is not living up to his expectations. I still have hopes for Ossai, and he had a nice field goal block yesterday. Haven't seen that in awhile. Stone should be shown the door, he brings nothing to the table. Same with Rankins. I think Jenkins and Jackson will develop into decent tackles. 

They would be crazy to extend him. He’s had ample opportunities at this point and has shown absolutely nothing.

[Sled21]

(12-02-2024, 03:12 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

They would be crazy to extend him. He’s had ample opportunities at this point and has shown absolutely nothing.

True, but I still think he can make the next step. Now would I bet money on it, no...

[Frank Booth]

Gonna take 2 seasons to fix the issues with this team more than likely

We’re in the 2006-2008 period unfortunately

[Sled21]

(12-02-2024, 03:15 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Gonna take 2 seasons to fix the issues with this team more than likely

We’re in the 2006-2008 period unfortunately

I don't believe that. There is nothing wrong with the offense, it could be better but it is putting up enough points to win almost every week if the defense wasn't a sieve. A new DC with new position coaches, especially in the backfield, along with a defense heavy draft and I think we're right back in it.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-02-2024, 03:00 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You're right, both Jenkins and Jackson have shown flashes, but not really as pass rushers.
They need to add more juice inside.
Heck, Anarumo also needs to incorporate more stunts and moving around players so they can have more ways to win.

With DE, Ossai is too little, too late. He's set to hit FA after this season, and frankly he hasn't shown enough to warrant keeping around.
Same with Cam Sample.
For Murphy, I hate to say it, but this is what you get when you take a more raw player. Maybe though Murphy needs into his 3rd year to really get going like Josh Allen did with BUF.
I'd seriously look at giving Murphy a majority of the reps over Hubbard the rest of the year to try to expedite his development.

Even if the Bengals keep Hendrickson, Hubbard, and Murphy for next year, they need 1-2 new additions (depending on what people think of Cedric Johnson).

I think we're seeing what can happen at CB if you have too many guys on their rookie deals, especially if you have injuries.
I am surprised they didn't add a veteran when Turner went down.
Too much put on Newton and Ivey too early, IMO.
Maybe add a cheaper vet (Eli Apple type of guy) to be CB4 if anything next year.

There's lots of guys that show flashes...ie play well on a play or 2. But, overall...the bulk of their snaps are bad.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-02-2024, 03:06 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Hubbard has been playing the entire season hurt. Whether that is a good idea or not is another matter. Losing Sample for the season hurt as well. Murphy is not living up to his expectations. I still have hopes for Ossai, and he had a nice field goal block yesterday. Haven't seen that in awhile. Stone should be shown the door, he brings nothing to the table. Same with Rankins. I think Jenkins and Jackson will develop into decent tackles. 

I get it, which is why I mentioned maybe it's age and injuries catching up to him.
But even if he's still active, the team should be weaving in Murphy/Ossai more, and they should be more effective at this point.

If a 1st rounder needs more than a year to develop, they shouldn't have been a 1st rounder. That's my stance, not changing.
I know Ossai missed the entirety of his rookie year, but the reality is he has 5 games left under contract and he has only 6.5 sacks across 42 games to show for it.
Sample only 5.0 sacks across 47 games.
I'd potentially be ok retaining Sample as a 4th/5th DE because he's decent against the run, but Ossai needs replaced with a draft pick, IMO.

If it's me, I'm targeting an outside and interior pass rusher early in the draft along with IOL and maybe a pass catcher.
I'm also cutting Rankins, maybe considering re-signing BJ Hill based on how the FA market is looking.
My DL depth would be...
DE - Hendrickson, Murphy, Hubbard, early draft pick, Johnson/Sample
DT - Hill/FA, Jenkins, Jackson, early draft pick
For the 10th spot, I may go another vet backup-level DL or just roll with 9 DL and go with an extra DB.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-02-2024, 03:18 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I don't believe that. There is nothing wrong with the offense, it could be better but it is putting up enough points to win almost every week if the defense wasn't a sieve. A new DC with new position coaches, especially in the backfield, along with a defense heavy draft and I think we're right back in it.

I'm with you up until you say draft.

You might get 1 draft pick that can start and upgrade you day 1. They need quality free agents.

3-4 quality free agents on defense and a couple draft picks would be great.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-02-2024, 03:22 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I get it, which is why I mentioned maybe it's age and injuries catching up to him.
But even if he's still active, the team should be weaving in Murphy/Ossai more, and they should be more effective at this point.

If a 1st rounder needs more than a year to develop, they shouldn't have been a 1st rounder. That's my stance, not changing.
I know Ossai missed the entirety of his rookie year, but the reality is he has 5 games left under contract and he has only 6.5 sacks across 42 games to show for it.
Sample only 5.0 sacks across 47 games.
I'd potentially be ok retaining Sample as a 4th/5th DE because he's decent against the run, but Ossai needs replaced with a draft pick, IMO.

If it's me, I'm targeting an outside and interior pass rusher early in the draft along with IOL and maybe a pass catcher.
I'm also cutting Rankins, maybe considering re-signing BJ Hill based on how the FA market is looking.
My DL depth would be...
DE - Hendrickson, Murphy, Hubbard, early draft pick, Johnson/Sample
DT - Hill/FA, Jenkins, Jackson, early draft pick
For the 10th spot, I may go another vet backup-level DL or just roll with 9 DL and go with an extra DB.

I'm with you on a lot of that. It's just, we need actual good moves and draft picks.

When we look at fixing the team, we assume they'll hit on all their moves. Look at safety, they let Bates go, went to Scott. Waived him. Signed Stone. Safety still not fixed.

Essentially after a year we're looking at waiving most of our new signings.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-02-2024, 03:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm with you on a lot of that. It's just, we need actual good moves and draft picks.

When we look at fixing the team, we assume they'll hit on all their moves. Look at safety, they let Bates go, went to Scott. Waived him. Signed Stone. Safety still not fixed.

Essentially after a year we're looking at waiving most of our new signings.

True, but I don't think hardly any fans looked at Scott or Stone as a true quality replacement. They were head scratchers.
Bengals will need to bring in someone with name recognition or invest an early draft pick in a guy that would give confidence in Anarumo's scheme especially.
That player has to be able to have instincts, follow play assignments, and be fast and agile enough to succeed as a center fielder FS.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-02-2024, 03:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: True, but I don't think hardly any fans looked at Scott or Stone as a true quality replacement. They were head scratchers.
Bengals will need to bring in someone with name recognition or invest an early draft pick in a guy that would give confidence in Anarumo's scheme especially.
That player has to be able to have instincts, follow play assignments, and be fast and agile enough to succeed as a center fielder FS.

The funny thing is they overpay for these guys too.

[Au165]

(12-02-2024, 03:15 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Gonna take 2 seasons to fix the issues with this team more than likely

We’re in the 2006-2008 period unfortunately

Chargers went from about the same place we are in points allowed to 1st in one season. People keep saying this is a talent issue, which it is, but it's also a coaching issue. Cleaning house on the defensive side and two or three veterans can make a massive difference (What LAC did).

[Frank Booth]

Too many optimists here

“The bengals will fix it in 1 season!”

ok I guess you have faith in the front office and coaching staff lol

[THE PISTONS]

(12-02-2024, 03:58 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Too many optimists here

“The bengals will fix it in 1 season!”

ok I guess you have faith in the front office and coaching staff lol

The reality is they will improve some areas, but others will become issues.

There's a real chance that Trey, Chase, and Tee hold out next year. Or that 2 hold out and Tee just leaves.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-02-2024, 03:50 PM)Au165 Wrote: Chargers went from about the same place we are in points allowed to 1st in one season. People keep saying this is a talent issue, which it is, but it's also a coaching issue. Cleaning house on the defensive side and two or three veterans can make a massive difference (What LAC did).

Yes. Veterans being key.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

Right now at present we have an elite pass rusher in Tre a good number 2 corner in CTB a development in Dax Hill maybe keep Logan a highend backup in Murphy everyone else should be gone and be replaced next season on defense.