Ranking all players on the roster prior to 2025 off season

[*Synric*]

(7 hours ago)TecmoBengals Wrote: Speaking of Hilton, it's going to be hard to replace his talent. He's aging and eventually we'll lose his ability to stop the run and pressure the QB. 

If healthy Daxton Hill will likely step in a slot corner which is probably thr position he should have been playing since he was drafted. He has the talent to be special there too. He looked awesome in the box early in 2023 before they decided he need to play the post because Nick Scott was terrible. 

[CJD]

(7 hours ago)Synric Wrote: Mike Hilton is also the best run defending corner in the NFL slot or boundary. He should be above Mims and Ted Karras as well. 

If Hilton is the 7th best player on this team, then we better bend over backwards to resign him.

Do you think we will?

[TecmoBengals]

(7 hours ago)Sled21 Wrote: I think he has one more contract in him....

I hope so. He's an awesome talent and appears to be a vocal leader for the team.

[*Synric*]

(7 hours ago)CJD Wrote: If Hilton is the 7th best player on this team, then we better bend over backwards to resign him.

Do you think we will?

No. The rate corners fall off at 30 years old is staggering. 

[Whatever]

(7 hours ago)CJD Wrote: And Hilton had to be taken off the field on third down because he can't cover. He is an excellent run defender and blitzer, but he's also over 30 and may lose his job in 2025. Yoshi is a reliable red zone target that has produced a lot of touchdowns in his time on this team. I don't think the choice is as obvious as you're making it seem. Both players have really good aspects of their game and really glaring flaws.

Yoshi is literally the worst graded qualifying player at his position per PFF.  Like, there are qualifying G's that grade worse than Cappa and Volson.  In fact, Volson grades better outright.  

Beyond that, he has the third worst Catch % on the team, only better than Irwin and Burton to go with 5 drops on 61 targets.  He doesn't block well and is a non factor between the 20's.  

He is an extremely hard sell when you're claiming he's just outside the ten best players on the roster.  And if he is, why bother resigning Tee?

Hilton, beyond his individual contribution, is one of the defensive leaders of the club and is a big part of helping the young CB's.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(4 hours ago)Whatever Wrote: Yoshi is literally the worst graded qualifying player at his position per PFF.  Like, there are qualifying G's that grade worse than Cappa and Volson.  In fact, Volson grades better outright.  

Beyond that, he has the third worst Catch % on the team, only better than Irwin and Burton to go with 5 drops on 61 targets.  He doesn't block well and is a non factor between the 20's.  

He is an extremely hard sell when you're claiming he's just outside the ten best players on the roster.  And if he is, why bother resigning Tee?

Hilton, beyond his individual contribution, is one of the defensive leaders of the club and is a big part of helping the young CB's.  

I agree he has Yoshi too high but it’s pretty simple; Yoshi is a keeper, and Volson is not. Idc what the grades say.

[Whatever]

(4 hours ago)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I agree he has Yoshi too high but it’s pretty simple; Yoshi is a keeper, and Volson is not. Idc what the grades say.

Volson sucks and should be warming the pine, no question.  That said, this is an issue with perception.  If Volson fails at his assignment, it's apparent, because Joe gets decked.  If Yoshi fails at his assignment, it rarely is apparent because the ball doesn't come his way.  When Yoshi finally does succeed and catches a pass, people then wonder why he isn't getting the ball more.  

It's this difference in perception that causes the "Golden Binns" hype every year.

[CJD]

(7 hours ago)Synric Wrote: No. The rate corners fall off at 30 years old is staggering. 

That's my feeling as well. I think Hilton has been great, and I think he had periods of greatness this year, but I also think he is likely not in the long term plans of this team because he is getting older and has already shown a significant decline in one of his major duties.

(4 hours ago)Whatever Wrote: Yoshi is literally the worst graded qualifying player at his position per PFF.  Like, there are qualifying G's that grade worse than Cappa and Volson.  In fact, Volson grades better outright.  

Beyond that, he has the third worst Catch % on the team, only better than Irwin and Burton to go with 5 drops on 61 targets.  He doesn't block well and is a non factor between the 20's.  

He is an extremely hard sell when you're claiming he's just outside the ten best players on the roster.  And if he is, why bother resigning Tee?

Hilton, beyond his individual contribution, is one of the defensive leaders of the club and is a big part of helping the young CB's.  

The problem with PFF absolutism is that it lacks a ton of context. By your logic, Amarius Mims is a garbage can player because his overall rating is 57.8. Barely any better than Iosivas. I'm not sure why you aren't arguing about his placement in the top 8. Is it just because you like Mims but have a bone to pick with Iosivas? It may be true that Iosivas does not win as often as he should and that's why he doesn't get a ton of targets. It might also be true that he is just the 4th or 5th option on a team with a bunch of super star receivers. 

I think PFF is a great tool to use when evaluating players, but I don't think it's the only thing to look at. When I watch Iosivas, I see a young player who is growing in his role and abilities. He may not be a finished product, but he has potential and he will be on this team continuing to grow for the next 2 years, at a minimum. 

When I look at Hilton, I see an aging player who has had his role reduced over time and who is a free agent and may not even be on the team next year, not for budgetary reasons but simply because the team decided to move on from him. Re-signing him would not break the bank by any means, but we still may not because his usefulness is limited and versatility, beyond availability, is one of the most valuable abilities a player can have in the NFL.

I already said the fall off after Gesicki is precipitous, so me putting Iosivas at #11 is not me saying he's a star player who we need to increase the role of. It's me saying this roster has a severe lack of talent such that a role player whose main purpose right now is red zone targets is somehow the 11th best player on this roster. We need to have some actually good drafts to inject some talent into this roster such that Iosivas falls to ~20 to 25 where a player of his caliber belongs.

[Whatever]

(2 hours ago)CJD Wrote: That's my feeling as well. I think Hilton has been great, and I think he had periods of greatness this year, but I also think he is likely not in the long term plans of this team because he is getting older and has already shown a significant decline in one of his major duties.


The problem with PFF absolutism is that it lacks a ton of context. By your logic, Amarius Mims is a garbage can player because his overall rating is 57.8. Barely any better than Iosivas. I'm not sure why you aren't arguing about his placement in the top 8. Is it just because you like Mims but have a bone to pick with Iosivas? It may be true that Iosivas does not win as often as he should and that's why he doesn't get a ton of targets. It might also be true that he is just the 4th or 5th option on a team with a bunch of super star receivers. 

I think PFF is a great tool to use when evaluating players, but I don't think it's the only thing to look at. When I watch Iosivas, I see a young player who is growing in his role and abilities. He may not be a finished product, but he has potential and he will be on this team continuing to grow for the next 2 years, at a minimum. 

When I look at Hilton, I see an aging player who has had his role reduced over time and who is a free agent and may not even be on the team next year, not for budgetary reasons but simply because the team decided to move on from him. Re-signing him would not break the bank by any means, but we still may not because his usefulness is limited and versatility, beyond availability, is one of the most valuable abilities a player can have in the NFL.

I already said the fall off after Gesicki is precipitous, so me putting Iosivas at #11 is not me saying he's a star player who we need to increase the role of. It's me saying this roster has a severe lack of talent such that a role player whose main purpose right now is red zone targets is somehow the 11th best player on this roster. We need to have some actually good drafts to inject some talent into this roster such that Iosivas falls to ~20 to 25 where a player of his caliber belongs.

It's not absolutism at all and I provided other facts that back up my statement.  When a guy is literally graded the worst at his position by a neutral source, I think some pause needs to be given as to why he's determined as the #11 player on the Bengals.

Mims is too high, as well.  I mean, there's major issues all over this list, but a guy who should be around 20th at 8 is not as bad as a guy who should be 35th or so at 11.  Also, your question was who should Hilton be ranked above and Yoshi is literally the next player up the list, drawing immediate attention to him.

Your basis for this list was to list the players from best to worst.  Yoshi having potential and Hilton being on the decline has zero bearing on which is currently better.  

[CJD]

(1 hour ago)Whatever Wrote: It's not absolutism at all and I provided other facts that back up my statement.  When a guy is literally graded the worst at his position by a neutral source, I think some pause needs to be given as to why he's determined as the #11 player on the Bengals.

Mims is too high, as well.  I mean, there's major issues all over this list, but a guy who should be around 20th at 8 is not as bad as a guy who should be 35th or so at 11.  Also, your question was who should Hilton be ranked above and Yoshi is literally the next player up the list, drawing immediate attention to him.

Your basis for this list was to list the players from best to worst.  Yoshi having potential and Hilton being on the decline has zero bearing on which is currently better.  

Ranking players is not an objective measure. If there's a player who is good at one thing, but getting worse at everything else, and another player is decent but getting better, there's no measure that would objectively measure one player above the other. I value potential and future ability. I look at Mims and Iosivas and see two players that, if they continue on their trajectory, could be core players on this team. I don't see Hilton as a core player on this team. Not at his age, declining ability, lack of versatility and status as a free agent.

Reading through my rankings again, I definitely see where some biases have snuck through. I think Newton being above Dax was an oversight that I should have corrected before posting. But I don't think keeping an aging, free agent nickel cornerback that is taken off the field on most passing plays outside of the top 10 is one of those oversights.

I do agree with you that Iosivas SHOULD be much lower.

It's just we lack the talent to push him to where he should be, which is in the 20 to 25 range.