Walter Nolen vs Kenneth Grant - PFF grade comparison

[SunsetBengal]

(02-19-2025, 09:17 AM)Whatever Wrote: Credit goes to Synric for finding this first.

https://atozsports.com/nfl-draft/2025-nfl-draft-notebook-walter-nolen-shavon-revel-princely-umanmielen-tetairoa-mcmillan/#google_vignette

..

Quote:The major questions surrounding him are effort and character. According to multiple sources, the latter is especially concerning. There are multiple NFL teams that have already taken Nolen off of their board. He is not consistently enough of a disruptive player to have as many concerns as he does. I’m out.

[*Synric*]

(02-19-2025, 09:17 AM)Whatever Wrote: Credit goes to Synric for finding this first.

https://atozsports.com/nfl-draft/2025-nfl-draft-notebook-walter-nolen-shavon-revel-princely-umanmielen-tetairoa-mcmillan/#google_vignette

(02-19-2025, 09:46 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: ..

Jordan Reid from ESPN I would say is a more reputable source had this to say about Walter Nolen after the Senior Bowl. 

15 Defensive Linemen in my updated top-50. #OleMiss iDL Walter Nolen is one that I’ll continue to be very high on.

Full Rankings➡️: https://t.co/O6zpbkuBXQ pic.twitter.com/0BJrDYqnwz

— Jordan Reid (@Jordan_Reid) February 7, 2025

[SunsetBengal]

(02-19-2025, 09:54 AM)Synric Wrote: Jordan Reid from ESPN I would say is a more reputable source had this to say about Walter Nolen after the Senior Bowl. 

15 Defensive Linemen in my updated top-50. #OleMiss iDL Walter Nolen is one that I’ll continue to be very high on.

Full Rankings➡️: https://t.co/O6zpbkuBXQ pic.twitter.com/0BJrDYqnwz

— Jordan Reid (@Jordan_Reid) February 7, 2025

Jordan Reid might be a more reputable source, but the writer from ATOZPORTS is also a writer and held to the same libel standards. Meaning he can't just make stuff up about a guy without getting the information from who he believes is a reliable source. I do find it curious that no specific incidents or examples of the lack of effort and character concerns were noted.

[*Synric*]

Walter Nolen and Kenneth Grant are opposite sides of the same coin. True Juniors, 21 years old, athletic freaks, and most importantly still developing. Neither of these guys are the best player at their position in the draft but easily have the highest ceiling.

Walter Nolen is relentless and pass rusher and run defender. Between his explosive athleticism, core strength, and natural leverage he is a tough handle per snap for any IOL. He's the type of guy that is going to create interior pressure and negative plays. Hes more of a penetrator than gap control so for those reps when he just holds the point as say a 4t it's going to be hit or miss (which is Kris Jenkins strength).

Kenneth Grant is a massive easy moving NT. In 2023 he played alot more 43 nose and showed good natural agility to play a gap and a half regularly. He is a guy not easily moved and shows some finesse to his pass rush skillset for a guy that size with an excellent swim. Would like to see him just play to his size more often.


These guys are going to get great NFL comps like Ed Oliver and Dexter Lawrence but honestly right now they are closer to their floor comps of Neville Gallimore and Dontari Poe.

[*Synric*]

(02-19-2025, 10:02 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Jordan Reid might be a more reputable source, but the writer from ATOZPORTS is also a writer and held to the same libel standards. Meaning he can't just make stuff up about a guy without getting the information from who he believes is a reliable source. I do find it curious that no specific incidents or examples of the lack of effort and character concerns were noted.

There is no other mention of any negative concerns about Walter Nolen other than Ryan Roberts vague report. And several like Jordan Reid and even Daniel Jeremiah after the Senior Bowl mentioning the good interviews.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-19-2025, 09:17 AM)Whatever Wrote: Credit goes to Synric for finding this first.

https://atozsports.com/nfl-draft/2025-nfl-draft-notebook-walter-nolen-shavon-revel-princely-umanmielen-tetairoa-mcmillan/#google_vignette

I wish it gave more specifics than just "effort and character."

Effort is actually what I would care about more without knowing the specifics of the character.

I agree though, depending on what it is, I may be out too.
Not out yet without knowing the specifics though.

[Whatever]

(02-19-2025, 10:12 AM)Synric Wrote: There is no other mention of any negative concerns about Walter Nolen other than Ryan Roberts vague report. And several like Jordan Reid and even Daniel Jeremiah after the Senior Bowl mentioning the good interviews.

Well, a good interview doesn't mean there are not concerns there.  It's very easy for most to put their best foot forward when they know they are being evaluated and are being coached by agents as to what to say.  I'm sure Burton interviewed well, for example.

Character isn't about what you do when everyone's watching.  It's about what you do when you think nobody's watching.  

That said, there is a report out there regarding his character that will be need to be vetted.  Is Nolen worth the risk?  Hard to say.  But in a class with so much talent at 3 tech, I would personally pass. 

[*ochocincos*]

(02-19-2025, 11:23 AM)Whatever Wrote: Well, a good interview doesn't mean there are not concerns there.  It's very easy for most to put their best foot forward when they know they are being evaluated and are being coached by agents as to what to say.  I'm sure Burton interviewed well, for example.

Character isn't about what you do when everyone's watching.  It's about what you do when you think nobody's watching.  

That said, there is a report out there regarding his character that will be need to be vetted.  Is Nolen worth the risk?  Hard to say.  But in a class with so much talent at 3 tech, I would personally pass. 

Aside from Graham, who is really that close to Nolen's talent?

There are some guys in Rds 2-4, but I don't think there are really any 1st round caliber 3Ts other than these two?
Unless people are considering Tyleik Williams and/or Derrick Harmon to be close?

I get your point though, which is you are willing to wait on a 3T and would rather go with a potential Vita Vea type NT in Grant instead of getting Nolen and a more typical 2-down NT in the mid-late rounds.

[Clark W Griswold]

(02-19-2025, 09:17 AM)Whatever Wrote: Credit goes to Synric for finding this first.

https://atozsports.com/nfl-draft/2025-nfl-draft-notebook-walter-nolen-shavon-revel-princely-umanmielen-tetairoa-mcmillan/#google_vignette

Unless I missed something, that article does not specify what the character concerns are. It does mention something about his lack of effort sometimes.
I know he played for like 3 high schools and a couple of colleges but these days that’s more and more common.
There was the mix up where he left A&M because his position coach left but then didn’t realized he’d have to pay the NIL $ back. That’s no biggie as young people don’t often look at all of the variables with stuff like that.
I’m sure the interviews will weigh heavily for where he is drafted but I can’t see anything specific saying what the character issues are.

[XsandOs]

(02-18-2025, 10:44 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I would love for the Bengals to find a 1st round trade partner in the 26 to 28 range, trade down in round 1, get extra picks in 2025 draft and draft Grant in round 1. I think he is going to be a late 1st round to early 2nd round pick. I think he can be a great backup the first 8 or 9 games and gain expereince and possibly start by end of the year and playoffs.

I think he has great upside as he gets stronger to bull rush the pocket.

It is interesting that a month ago, I was thinking along the same lines as you. But now, I am not sure he will be there in mid-20s - if he even makes it to 17.

T'Vondre Sweat dropped to 38 because 16 QBs and WRs were drafted ahead of him. I don't see more than 8 QBs and WRs picked in the same top-40 range this year.

Unless there is top tier CB at 17, I don't see how we pass on Grant.

[Whatever]

(02-19-2025, 08:56 PM)XsandOs Wrote: It is interesting that a month ago, I was thinking along the same lines as you. But now, I am not sure he will be there in mid-20s - if he even makes it to 17.

T'Vondre Sweat dropped to 38 because 16 QBs and WRs were drafted ahead of him. I don't see more than 8 QBs and WRs picked in the same top-40 range this year.

Unless there is top tier CB at 17, I don't see how we pass on Grant.

Sweat had character and maturity issues that were confirmed when he got popped for DUI not long before the draft.  

But, IMO, aside from that, Sweat simply wasn't as good of a prospect as Grant.  Grant is way better, athletically, and will likely have a monster showing at the Combine.

[XsandOs]

(02-20-2025, 01:04 AM)Whatever Wrote: Sweat had character and maturity issues that were confirmed when he got popped for DUI not long before the draft.  

But, IMO, aside from that, Sweat simply wasn't as good of a prospect as Grant.  Grant is way better, athletically, and will likely have a monster showing at the Combine.

The knock on Sweat was weight management and conditioning. The average pre-draft rankings had him an average of late second to third round - the question was who can motivate him and keep with his conditioning. If the inclination towards drinking and partying, which led some to think he may fall into Day 3, was really an issue - he would have been a 4th round pick.  

I feel that him falling to 38, was more a function of the draft being heavy in QB and WR, than the DUI - i think he was our target with our second rounder.

It turned out he was the best of the DTs taken last year. If Grant delivers a 76 PFF season and is the 15th best DT in NFL, I can't see how he lasts past mid first round.

To your opinion of Grant being a better prospect than Sweat - the NFL thinks Sweat was the same or slightly better than Grant (6.38 vs 6.36). They were dead wrong about Sweat at 6.38. And I think they are similarly wrong about Grant. I think Grant is a year-1 starter.

Ultimately; where these players get drafted, depends on the overall strength of the class and which positions are the heaviest. As much as I was hoping we get Sweat last year, I similarly hope we get Grant this year.  

[Whatever]

(02-20-2025, 03:16 AM)XsandOs Wrote: The knock on Sweat was weight management and conditioning. The average pre-draft rankings had him an average of late second to third round - the question was who can motivate him and keep with his conditioning. If the inclination towards drinking and partying, which led some to think he may fall into Day 3, was really an issue - he would have been a 4th round pick.  

I feel that him falling to 38, was more a function of the draft being heavy in QB and WR, than the DUI - i think he was our target with our second rounder.

It turned out he was the best of the DTs taken last year. If Grant delivers a 76 PFF season and is the 15th best DT in NFL, I can't see how he lasts past mid first round.

To your opinion of Grant being a better prospect than Sweat - the NFL thinks Sweat was the same or slightly better than Grant (6.38 vs 6.36). They were dead wrong about Sweat at 6.38. And I think they are similarly wrong about Grant. I think Grant is a year-1 starter.

Ultimately; where these players get drafted, depends on the overall strength of the class and which positions are the heaviest. As much as I was hoping we get Sweat last year, I similarly hope we get Grant this year.  

Character issues are tough to predict, simply because there are always teams that overlook it or are willing to overlook it when need and talent coincide.  It only takes one.  Sometimes, it pays off.  Others(Burton), it doesn't.

Grant, I feel, will see his stock get a significant increase at the Combine.  As I mentioned earlier, he reportedly ran a sub-5.00 40 at 360 pounds his freshman year.  People were going gaga for Sweat running 5.27 at 366 at the Combine last year.  Film was a bit better on Sweat coming out, but Grant has a much higher ceiling because he is just a freakish athlete.  

[coachmcneil71]

(02-19-2025, 12:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Aside from Graham, who is really that close to Nolen's talent?

There are some guys in Rds 2-4, but I don't think there are really any 1st round caliber 3Ts other than these two?
Unless people are considering Tyleik Williams and/or Derrick Harmon to be close?

I get your point though, which is you are willing to wait on a 3T and would rather go with a potential Vita Vea type NT in Grant instead of getting Nolen and a more typical 2-down NT in the mid-late rounds.

I've been considering Williams a 2nd round prospect up until I read this post and decided to dive deeper. He has a first rd grade mid-late. The defense he played on had multiple, multiple goal line stands. He can play both DT positions at 327 pounds. 

As I mentioned, I've considered him more of a 2nd rounder, but he probably will be gone by then. Both the reigning SB Champion Eagles and Pittsburgh have him very high on their board. Those two teams have been smacking dingers for years when it comes to assessing Dlinemen. 

Grant and Williams have the same knock; they are inconsistent at times. Grant and Nolen are both terrific prospects and currently deserve to be ranked a little higher than Williams, but let's not act like it's a huge gap. Because there isn't one. 

[*ochocincos*]

(02-20-2025, 12:51 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: I've been considering Williams a 2nd round prospect up until I read this post and decided to dive deeper. He has a first rd grade mid-late. The defense he played on had multiple, multiple goal line stands. He can play both DT positions at 327 pounds. 

As I mentioned, I've considered him more of a 2nd rounder, but he probably will be gone by then. Both the reigning SB Champion Eagles and Pittsburgh have him very high on their board. Those two teams have been smacking dingers for years when it comes to assessing Dlinemen. 

Grant and Williams have the same knock; they are inconsistent at times. Grant and Nolen are both terrific prospects and currently deserve to be ranked a little higher than Williams, but let's not act like it's a huge gap. Because there isn't one. 

I've seen him projected late 1st to early 2nd.
But we need to be careful not to "reach" for a player at 17 because he may not be there at 49.


I know trading back can be risky of that player getting taken if going back too far, but that's why they need alternate options that they can pivot to.
Derrick Harmon is another that could be a good get if trading back into late 1st, early 2nd.

[Luvnit2]

(02-20-2025, 01:27 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I've seen him projected late 1st to early 2nd.
But we need to be careful not to "reach" for a player at 17 because he may not be there at 49.


I know trading back can be risky of that player getting taken if going back too far, but that's why they need alternate options that they can pivot to.
Derrick Harmon is another that could be a good get if trading back into late 1st, early 2nd.

I think Bengals only trade back if they have a 1st round grade on more than 1 guy who has yet to be drafted. For example, if we trade back from 17 to 20, then we need 4 guys with a first round grade. I don;t think the pidegeon hole themselves at a certian position group in round one, they are looking at BPA and if that is team's # 1 position of need, then great, if not, they grab the BPA anyway.

I don't think a team trades down 3 or 4 spots hoping the top guy on their board falls to them.

[coachmcneil71]

(02-20-2025, 01:27 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I've seen him projected late 1st to early 2nd.
But we need to be careful not to "reach" for a player at 17 because he may not be there at 49.


I know trading back can be risky of that player getting taken if going back too far, but that's why they need alternate options that they can pivot to.
Derrick Harmon is another that could be a good get if trading back into late 1st, early 2nd.

I agree! I'll also check out Harmon. 

I would have reservations about taking Williams at #17. Wts, the FO and coaches have really been screwing the pooch (with possible exception of Mims; jury still out though} picking between the #15-#25 picks, so a trade back wouldn't overly piss me off in this draft. I normally don't like the idea, but I'm open to it in this draft.

I mean, most of us tenured members understand where the holes are. A run stuffing DT and an extra DE or LB in the top 40 picks could work out nicely! 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

I like the thoughts on trading back for Tyliek Williams or Derrick Harmon as well guys.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-20-2025, 01:57 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: I agree! I'll also check out Harmon. 

I would have reservations about taking Williams at #17. Wts, the FO and coaches have really been screwing the pooch (with possible exception of Mims; jury still out though} picking between the #15-#25 picks, so a trade back wouldn't overly piss me off in this draft. I normally don't like the idea, but I'm open to it in this draft.

I mean, most of us tenured members understand where the holes are. A run stuffing DT and an extra DE or LB in the top 40 picks could work out nicely! 

And here's the reality for some...

Bengals could (arguably) use a 3T, a 1T, a DE, a FS, and maybe another CB on defense alone.
Add in 2 IOL, a TE, and possibly a WR too depending on what happens with Higgins.
We shouldn't expect any pick after Rd 2 to be much of an immediate contributor on O/D aside from maybe a rotational role as rookies.

So unless Bengals address some of this in FA before getting into the draft, they'll have more holes than can be filled by draft picks we could agree confidently can fill those spots as rookies.

Unless Bengals get extra early-round picks, no mock or actual draft is going to get the approval from every fan.

[Whatever]

(02-20-2025, 02:56 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I like the thoughts on trading back for Tyliek Williams or Derrick Harmon as well guys.

Trading down will be tough simply because of the lack of "true" first round talent.  There are really only a dozen guys in this class with real 1st round grades, then a bunch of second round types that will move into the 1st just because of lack of quality talent ahead of them.  Teams aren't likely to want to trade up if they can get a similarly graded player at their pick.