Posts: 38,656
Threads: 914
Reputation:
130656
Joined: May 2015
(06-01-2015, 10:39 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: What ultimately turns me off about Boomer and Palmer was the way they left the franchise. I'm of the opinion that Boomer could have turned the franchise around in 1998 and brought us to the playoffs. Apparently he got into a snit with the FO about personal they were releasing (as I recall, there was something about a back-up TE Boomer was fond of).
Kenny never did this, to my recollection. That, combined with the fact that he was a darn good QB... possibly the most underrated of all time.
As for Dalton, he has to take the next step. When and if...
I have to say I have zero issue with the way Boomer left to go to NYJ. Boomer wanted to FO to draft some talent on D. instead we draft his replacement in David Klingler. Boomer even agreed to stay on an additional year to help with the transition.
I was always of the opinion that the 1997 departure was due to Mikey urging him to hang 'em up for the MNF Booth.
Posts: 15,116
Threads: 221
Reputation:
147378
Joined: May 2015
(06-01-2015, 09:31 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: But, alas, Boomer didn't re-sign with the team after that. Some bad blood with the franchise. I can't blame him too much after the way he was let go originally.
Actually, Boomer offered to come back, but Mike Brown insisted he take the MNF job. I remember because it pissed me off.
We went on to sign Neil O'Donnell.
(06-01-2015, 12:42 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: I know ill be alone here..
but i Voted DALTON!!!!
Because of the QBs on the list hes the only one that has a chance the lead us to a SB victory. (the others have come and gone.)
I doubt Dalton will get many votes over Boomer and Kenny when his career is over, but I do think he will be remembered more fondly once he's gone. There's been nothing sexy about his game, but the dude has managed to always be a winner here (in regular season). People always credited our defense and all the weapons, but the D ranked 22nd last year and many of the weapons were hurt. Still managed to go 10-5-1.
I'm not giving Dalton all the credit, but I do think he stabilized the position after CP left and he seems to play well in key moments during all the wins. Would I love an upgrade? Sure. But Dalton really isn't a bad QB. It's just that his play is so erratic at times. I've never seen a QB who could look elite for a couple weeks, then look like hot garbage the next.
I'd trade all of his FedEx air nominations in for a guarantee that he'd have no more games like the Browns' or Colts games last year.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
Posts: 2,481
Threads: 27
Reputation:
19395
Joined: May 2015
(06-01-2015, 01:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have to say I have zero issue with the way Boomer left to go to NYJ. Boomer wanted to FO to draft some talent on D. instead we draft his replacement in David Klingler. Boomer even agreed to stay on an additional year to help with the transition.
I was always of the opinion that the 1997 departure was due to Mikey urging him to hang 'em up for the MNF Booth.
My recollection (which is always subject to correction) is that Boomer would have stayed for the right price. He made an offer to Mr. Brown (something like $5 million a year??? A long shot for accuracy). If he was not offered those terms he would go to MNF. I remember thinking what a colossal mistake it was not to give him the money. His arm strength wasn't what it had been but his accuracy was the best of his career and he was the consummate field general. With Corey Dillon, Darnay Scott and company we had a competitive team. The big difference maker was Boomer.
I think he would have made a huge difference in the turnaround of the franchise - and his career numbers and awards would have benefited.
Boomer was my favorite QB in Bengal History (though acknowledging what Greg Cook might have been)
I have to say that at least statistically Anderson was the best of the group. He and Boomer were very very close in my mind.
Posts: 526
Threads: 21
Reputation:
2196
Joined: May 2015
Location: Philly
(06-01-2015, 01:59 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Actually, Boomer offered to come back, but Mike Brown insisted he take the MNF job. I remember because it pissed me off.
We went on to sign Neil O'Donnell.
I doubt Dalton will get many votes over Boomer and Kenny when his career is over, but I do think he will be remembered more fondly once he's gone. There's been nothing sexy about his game, but the dude has managed to always be a winner here (in regular season). People always credited our defense and all the weapons, but the D ranked 22nd last year and many of the weapons were hurt. Still managed to go 10-5-1.
I'm not giving Dalton all the credit, but I do think he stabilized the position after CP left and he seems to play well in key moments during all the wins. Would I love an upgrade? Sure. But Dalton really isn't a bad QB. It's just that his play is so erratic at times. I've never seen a QB who could look elite for a couple weeks, then look like hot garbage the next.
I'd trade all of his FedEx air nominations in for a guarantee that he'd have no more games like the Browns' or Colts games last year.
![[Image: bos_a_flacco_cr_576.jpg]](http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0118/bos_a_flacco_cr_576.jpg)
Posts: 16,414
Threads: 151
Reputation:
61627
Joined: May 2015
(06-01-2015, 01:59 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I doubt Dalton will get many votes over Boomer and Kenny when his career is over, but I do think he will be remembered more fondly once he's gone. There's been nothing sexy about his game, but the dude has managed to always be a winner here (in regular season). People always credited our defense and all the weapons, but the D ranked 22nd last year and many of the weapons were hurt. Still managed to go 10-5-1.
If he manages what none of the others could... Then i think he will start to be viewed in a higher light. Boomer and Kenny helped us reach a SB sure.. But you cant give either all the credit for those seasons either.. Just like you cant give dalton all the credit or blame.... they just happen to be the "Guy" at the time it all happened. and contribute to that.
His numbers should bounce back to 2013 level or better with all his toys on the field. (imo)
Like i said though its hard to consider him the greatest of all time when hes not done yet.
Just like its hard to consider anyone else on the list the best of all time in bengals history since 2 of them tie in their highest accomplishment of a SB loss.
Posts: 15,116
Threads: 221
Reputation:
147378
Joined: May 2015
(06-01-2015, 02:23 PM)Bryan Wrote:
The only thing that separates the two is playoff success. I tend to put more blame on Marvin for that though, as all of his players have struggled there.
(06-01-2015, 02:39 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: If he manages what none of the others could... Then i think he will start to be viewed in a higher light. Boomer and Kenny helped us reach a SB sure.. But you cant give either all the credit for those seasons either.. Just like you cant give dalton all the credit or blame.... they just happen to be the "Guy" at the time it all happened. and contribute to that.
His numbers should bounce back to 2013 level or better with all his toys on the field. (imo)
Like i said though its hard to consider him the greatest of all time when hes not done yet.
Just like its hard to consider anyone else on the list the best of all time in bengals history since 2 of them tie in their highest accomplishment of a SB loss.
Playoff success would definitely change everyone's perception of not only Dalton, but Marvin as well. I'm just not sure if they can pull it off at this point.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
Posts: 1,031
Threads: 20
Joined: May 2015
Well I am not alone but I also picked Dalton.
Anderson wasn't loved while he was here and a lot of people have turned around on him.
Dalton has lead us to the playoffs, more than any of the others, he is also the Franchise Leader in passing and TDs. He should bounce back this year with some of his players being back. I hope Paul G. is the answer on D and that last year was an aberration.
I am hoping that by time all is said and done, Dalton will do what the others wasn't able to do and that is win a SB or 2 or even 3.
BTW am I the only one that actually likes our chances if we were to make it to the SB? Lewis has done well against the NFC.
Posts: 28,776
Threads: 40
Reputation:
127030
Joined: May 2015
Location: Parts Unknown, PA
Call me a hater, but I don't think "Dalton might win a Super Bowl" and "Dalton threw 4 more TD passes in the era where you aren't allowed to give a WR a dirty look" is really compelling evidence that he is the best. Geez, the TD passes one...didn't Dalton throw 1 more TD pass than Palmer did in 2005? I'm not even going to get into the idea of saying Dalton is better than Kenny and Boomer because in my mind 4 straight playoff loses doesn't stack up to winning the playoffs at all much less coming within a few minutes of winning the Super Bowl.
As long as we are picking arbitrary things I'll contest that Carson Palmer is the greatest of all 4 because he made the most money being a professional QB.
Posts: 2,319
Threads: 27
Joined: May 2015
Location: Western Pennsylvania
I think I want to change my answer.
I vote Boomer because if I could set up a hypothetical situation where I was BBQing with all 4 of them, I think Boomer would be the most fun to hang with.
At least that's probably on par with recent answers given.
Posts: 19,654
Threads: 144
Reputation:
162297
Joined: May 2015
Location: Covington, Ky
(06-01-2015, 11:39 AM)Wyche Wrote: This....and I honestly would have probably went Kenny if I had seen more of his work. I was just beginning to understand the game when he was entering the twilight of his career. My memories of Boomer are much more vivid.
That being considered, there has to be something said about the way Boomer mastered the complex no huddle scheme devised by Wyche and Coslet. Sam said Boomer had "a beautiful mind".....and of course the fire.....
Head over to the Media Vault and you will find some games from the '70s and early '80s. Plenty of games there to watch him in action.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
Posts: 5,609
Threads: 36
Reputation:
36341
Joined: May 2015
Location: Vancouver, WA
I went with Kenny. Being able to watch some highlights of him on Youtube makes you appreciate him. It was also amazing to see what he could do considering there were very little penalties on the defense during his era.
You can always trust an dishonest man to be dishonest. Honestly, it's the honest ones you have to look out for.
"Winning makes believers of us all"-Paul Brown
Posts: 159
Threads: 0
Joined: May 2015
Dalton has as many playoff appearances in four years as Boomer and Carson had combined in 18 seasons with the bengals. Both massively underachieved with much more talented rosters and neither was able to win consistently.
Even in 1988 our passing game was putrid in the playoffs and boomer completely sucked in the Super Bowl. He's the main reason we lost that game.
Posts: 20,777
Threads: 99
Reputation:
193401
Joined: May 2015
Location: Bluegrass Region
(06-01-2015, 08:11 PM)Joe Pong Wrote: Dalton has as many playoff appearances in four years as Boomer and Carson had combined in 18 seasons with the bengals. Both massively underachieved with much more talented rosters and neither was able to win consistently.
Even in 1988 our passing game was putrid in the playoffs and boomer completely sucked in the Super Bowl. He's the main reason we lost that game.
In Boomer's defense, he suffered a left shoulder injury either in, or just prior to the playoffs. He soldiered on, but he was hurt.
"Better send those refunds..."
Posts: 5,559
Threads: 82
Reputation:
25610
Joined: May 2015
Location: Florida
(06-01-2015, 02:39 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: If he manages what none of the others could... Then i think he will start to be viewed in a higher light. Boomer and Kenny helped us reach a SB sure.. But you cant give either all the credit for those seasons either.. Just like you cant give dalton all the credit or blame.... they just happen to be the "Guy" at the time it all happened. and contribute to that.
His numbers should bounce back to 2013 level or better with all his toys on the field. (imo)
Like i said though its hard to consider him the greatest of all time when hes not done yet.
Just like its hard to consider anyone else on the list the best of all time in bengals history since 2 of them tie in their highest accomplishment of a SB loss.
There are a few more things going to Anderson and Esiason in that both had league passing titles and league MVP awards. They've been the only two Bengals to ever win the award. And until the Bengals win a SB, getting there is the team's highest accomplishment.
I do agree that Dalton shouldn't be compared with them at this point since he's not done. Who knows he might end up winning 3 SBs. But for now, he needs to put together a good season.
Posts: 10,250
Threads: 221
Reputation:
67005
Joined: May 2015
Location: Buckeye, AZ
(06-01-2015, 12:31 PM)Nately120 Wrote: In all fairness Kenny is the only one on the list that never had to deal with Mike Brown, either. I sort of feel like Boomer was the one who had to deal with Mikey TWICE at the peak of his tyrannical incompetence...just sayin'.
Valid point.
(06-01-2015, 01:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have to say I have zero issue with the way Boomer left to go to NYJ. Boomer wanted to FO to draft some talent on D. instead we draft his replacement in David Klingler. Boomer even agreed to stay on an additional year to help with the transition.
I was always of the opinion that the 1997 departure was due to Mikey urging him to hang 'em up for the MNF Booth.
I agree that he is completely vindicated for the way they treated him the first time. But my understanding about the second time was that Boomer chose to leave. Officially, he said it was because he wanted the MNF job to bring attention to his foundation. But I also heard an interview with him shortly after he left ragging on the FO for releasing players. There was one back-up TE he mentioned specifically, but he also said there were others.
(06-01-2015, 01:59 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Actually, Boomer offered to come back, but Mike Brown insisted he take the MNF job. I remember because it pissed me off.
I recall it a little different. The FO made an offer, but Boomer refused because he was offered the MNF job.
![[Image: 416686247_404249095282684_84217049823664...e=659A7198]](https://scontent.fphx1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/416686247_404249095282684_8421704982366424390_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=p8hMrwwk1IoAX8mnFLJ&_nc_ht=scontent.fphx1-2.fna&oh=00_AfBXs4gKHr4knFejO874dfV3zzLd_bq4GiUqHxGWFlwbug&oe=659A7198)
Posts: 16,091
Threads: 251
Reputation:
183976
Joined: May 2015
Location: Ohio
(06-01-2015, 08:22 PM)Wyche Wrote: In Boomer's defense, he suffered a left shoulder injury either in, or just prior to the playoffs. He soldiered on, but he was hurt.
Right, I think it was the next to last game of the season. His passing yards in like the last four games (playoffs included) were well below rest of season.
Still to this day I believe we'd have won it all with a healthy Boomer.
Posts: 5,559
Threads: 82
Reputation:
25610
Joined: May 2015
Location: Florida
(06-01-2015, 08:11 PM)Joe Pong Wrote: Dalton has as many playoff appearances in four years as Boomer and Carson had combined in 18 seasons with the bengals. Both massively underachieved with much more talented rosters and neither was able to win consistently.
Even in 1988 our passing game was putrid in the playoffs and boomer completely sucked in the Super Bowl. He's the main reason we lost that game.
I have to point out a few things. To start with we had the lead with 40 seconds to go in that SB and Boomer didn't suck. The second point is that Boomer won some playoff games. Something no QB since can say. The third is that after Mikey B inherited the team, the team went straight down the toilet and that wasn't Boomer's doing and there's no QB in history that could have steered those to teams to the playoffs.
Mikey B took a proud franchise and turned it into the worst franchise in all of professional sports in a few short years. It was truly shocking how fast the team disintegrated.
And, since when did Palmer have a more talented team than the one the Bengals have had the last 4 years?
Posts: 28,776
Threads: 40
Reputation:
127030
Joined: May 2015
Location: Parts Unknown, PA
(06-01-2015, 08:11 PM)Joe Pong Wrote: Dalton has as many playoff appearances in four years as Boomer and Carson had combined in 18 seasons with the bengals. Both massively underachieved with much more talented rosters and neither was able to win consistently.
Even in 1988 our passing game was putrid in the playoffs and boomer completely sucked in the Super Bowl. He's the main reason we lost that game.
Yes, but didn't Anderson, Esiason, and Palmer all have stints (some ever so brief) as top-tier QBs at some point in their careers? Can we see if Dalton can crack the top half of his contemporaries before we declare him the best Bengals QB ever?
Bengals TEAM peak passing ranking under each (I'm not triple-checking this info or anything, so meh)
1988 - #1 - Boomer Esiason - 97.4
1981 - #1 - Kenny Anderson - 98.4
2005 - #2 - Carson Palmer - 101.1 (only behind Peyton Manning)
2012 - #13 - Andy Dalton - 87.4
Look, I'm not saying this is a perfect metric by any means, but the idea of saying the only QB on this list who didn't reach the top or #2 spot among his peers is the BEST one the Bengals ever had is just...wacky. Best Bengals QB ever? Oh yea, definitely that one who had between 12 and 19 QBs in the league better than him at any given time...yup! 
Posts: 159
Threads: 0
Joined: May 2015
(06-01-2015, 11:06 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Yes, but didn't Anderson, Esiason, and Palmer all have stints (some ever so brief) as top-tier QBs at some point in their careers? Can we see if Dalton can crack the top half of his contemporaries before we declare him the best Bengals QB ever?
Bengals TEAM peak passing ranking under each (I'm not triple-checking this info or anything, so meh)
1988 - #1 - Boomer Esiason - 97.4
1981 - #1 - Kenny Anderson - 98.4
2005 - #2 - Carson Palmer - 101.1 (only behind Peyton Manning)
2012 - #13 - Andy Dalton - 87.4
Look, I'm not saying this is a perfect metric by any means, but the idea of saying the only QB on this list who didn't reach the top or #2 spot among his peers is the BEST one the Bengals ever had is just...wacky. Best Bengals QB ever? Oh yea, definitely that one who had between 12 and 19 QBs in the league better than him at any given time...yup!
Ok, and Boomer did that in his 5th year in the NFL. Anderson did that after being in the NFL about a decade. And in his third season, Dalton broke all those single season records that Palmer set in his third season in 2005.
Posts: 10,718
Threads: 63
Reputation:
57608
Joined: May 2015
(06-01-2015, 01:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have to say I have zero issue with the way Boomer left to go to NYJ. Boomer wanted to FO to draft some talent on D. instead we draft his replacement in David Klingler. Boomer even agreed to stay on an additional year to help with the transition.
I was always of the opinion that the 1997 departure was due to Mikey urging him to hang 'em up for the MNF Booth.
By and large, that's how I remember it. Of course I was in high school then and had other things going on.
|
![[Image: bfine-guns2.png]](https://i.ibb.co/YBkDQJV/bfine-guns2.png)
![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
