Tahj Brooks supposedly having a good minicamp

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(Yesterday, 02:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Methinks you're giving too much credit to Erick All, personally.

All had some good highlights and then folks started treating him like he was a budding superstar. Guy played the majority of the games, and if he had stayed healthy he was on pace for 298 yards at 7.9 yards per catch and 0 TDs. He was basically a young Drew Sample (but appropriately a 4th rounder instead of a 2nd rounder).

[*rfaulk34*]

(Yesterday, 03:00 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It allows defenses to stay in their base D, or even bring in an extra run stopper.

Which means if you block it up right, there's less players in the back end? 

[*rfaulk34*]

(Yesterday, 02:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Methinks you're giving too much credit to Erick All, personally.

Erick All went out with injury in the Raiders game last year, not playing the rest of the season.
In the games Erick All was not there, Chase Brown put up - 511 rushing yards (4.1 YPC), 262 receiving yards (7.9 YPR) and 5 TDs across 7 games.
That pace across 17 games - 1241 rushing yards + 636 receiving yards = 1877 yards from scrimmage, 12 TDs.

No sir. While raw numbers are true, his ability to block in the run game was instrumental and i can only imagine how it could have improved and the run game improved later in the year. 

[*ochocincos*]

(Yesterday, 03:25 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: No sir. While raw numbers are true, his ability to block in the run game was instrumental and i can only imagine how it could have improved and the run game improved later in the year. 

You don't think Sample or someone like Grandy could at least be close to what All did in the blocking department?

I don't disagree that All blocked fine, but I don't think him not being there is some incredibly massive dropoff that the entire offensive plan has to be changed.
He wasn't out there for the 2nd half of last season and Chase Brown and the Bengals offense did just fine.

[*Synric*]

(Yesterday, 02:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Methinks you're giving too much credit to Erick All, personally.

Erick All went out with injury in the Raiders game last year, not playing the rest of the season.
In the games Erick All was not there, Chase Brown put up - 511 rushing yards (4.1 YPC), 262 receiving yards (7.9 YPR) and 5 TDs across 7 games.
That pace across 17 games - 1241 rushing yards + 636 receiving yards = 1877 yards from scrimmage, 12 TDs.

Erick Alls ability to wham block across the formation opened up the power run game to the edges which created big plays. After he was injured they reverted back to the spread inside power run runs and it was his volume because they had no one else that pushed his stats. 


With no player on the roster to block in space or open up the edges the C & D gaps it limits the types of runs the can use. Whip out all those T and GT Counters with no 7 man blocking surface. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(Yesterday, 03:46 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You don't think Sample or someone like Grandy could at least be close to what All did in the blocking department?

I don't disagree that All blocked fine, but I don't think him not being there is some incredibly massive dropoff that the entire offensive plan has to be changed.
He wasn't out there for the 2nd half of last season and Chase Brown and the Bengals offense did just fine.

I think that's because of how good CB is. I do think there's a noticible difference in EEs run blocking and DSs run blocking. Sample just isn't athletic enough to block in space. Big ole lug. 





7:08 mark, watch Sample whiff and run right past his guy...

On that same play, you can see All working really well in a crowd. 

[*ochocincos*]

(Yesterday, 04:13 PM)Synric Wrote: Erick Alls ability to wham block across the formation opened up the power run game to the edges which created big plays. After he was injured they reverted back to the spread inside power run runs and it was his volume because they had no one else that pushed his stats. 


With no player on the roster to block in space or open up the edges the C & D gaps it limits the types of runs the can use. Whip out all those T and GT Counters with no 7 man blocking surface. 

4.1 YPC isn't so incredibly low that the Bengals need to worry about replacing/RBBC'ing CB.
It was good enough to have the Bengals go 5-3 after Erick All went down and CB played well.

We need to be honest with ourselves...Bengals are not going to go into true RBBC mode. They are a primary/bellcow RB team.
They will primarily give the rock to CB and give more opportunities to Brooks, Perine, or Moss if Brown has an injury or is incredibly unproductive (sub-3.0 YPC, for example).

What are you proposing the solution to be?
Have Brooks+Perine+Moss cut into Chase Brown's touches?
Two of those guys fresh are not gonna do (much) better than CB getting a bulk of the touches. Perine is a 3rd down specialist role player, Moss is pedestrian.
The only real hope is Brooks, but he's probably better suited in a Gio Bernard type of role.

As long as the OL run blocking is what it is, nearly every RB they put back there is going to have the same problems.

[SunsetBengal]

(Yesterday, 04:13 PM)Synric Wrote: Erick Alls ability to wham block across the formation opened up the power run game to the edges which created big plays. After he was injured they reverted back to the spread inside power run runs and it was his volume because they had no one else that pushed his stats. 


With no player on the roster to block in space or open up the edges the C & D gaps it limits the types of runs the can use. Whip out all those T and GT Counters with no 7 man blocking surface. 

Yes, I agree. It's different when you have a naturally athletic TE that not only embraces blocking, but absolutely excels at it. For example, Drew Sample is a good blocker, but he can't pull off the wham nearly as smoothly and efficiently as a guy like All. Given a full healthy season, I feel like All could also show his value as an intermediate level receiving TE as well. As it is now, we're just hoping that he recovers well enough to even be able to play football again.

[Essex Johnson]

(Yesterday, 04:13 PM)Synric Wrote: Erick Alls ability to wham block across the formation opened up the power run game to the edges which created big plays. After he was injured they reverted back to the spread inside power run runs and it was his volume because they had no one else that pushed his stats. 


With no player on the roster to block in space or open up the edges the C & D gaps it limits the types of runs the can use. Whip out all those T and GT Counters with no 7 man blocking surface. 

he had some moments but he was not a dramatic impact on the running game, he had four games over of 50% snap counts and the team in those four games had avg.  3.7 ypc and had 2 tds

[*Synric*]

(Yesterday, 06:46 PM)ochocincos Wrote: 4.1 YPC isn't so incredibly low that the Bengals need to worry about replacing/RBBC'ing CB.
It was good enough to have the Bengals go 5-3 after Erick All went down and CB played well.

We need to be honest with ourselves...Bengals are not going to go into true RBBC mode. They are a primary/bellcow RB team.
They will primarily give the rock to CB and give more opportunities to Brooks, Perine, or Moss if Brown has an injury or is incredibly unproductive (sub-3.0 YPC, for example).

What are you proposing the solution to be?
Have Brooks+Perine+Moss cut into Chase Brown's touches?
Two of those guys fresh are not gonna do (much) better than CB getting a bulk of the touches. Perine is a 3rd down specialist role player, Moss is pedestrian.
The only real hope is Brooks, but he's probably better suited in a Gio Bernard type of role.

As long as the OL run blocking is what it is, nearly every RB they put back there is going to have the same problems.

It is slightly below league average. 


I think people misunderstand my point. Erick All was an average Move TE. What he did is allow the Bengals to open up their rush offense along with their screen game. 

With their current personnel they are locked into mostly A and B gap runs which doesn't make use of what makes Chase Brown elite his straight line explosive speed. It will also highlight his weakness lateral agility and vision. It could potentially open Brown up to more body shots increasing his chance of injury (which is something Mixon didn't get enough credit for as an in-between the tackles runner). 

[jj22]

His 800+ college carries worry me. I thought Brown had a lot at 600+.

I haven’t seen much burst this spring.  I’m definitely looking forward to seeing him this camp and being anole to better gouge expectations.

[CincyKid]

(Big 12) Tahj Brooks: 1,505 rushing yards (5.3 ypc)/17 TD

great year for any RB........17 TDs is impressive

[*rfaulk34*]

(Yesterday, 07:40 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: he had some moments but he was not a dramatic impact on the running game, he had four games over of 50% snap counts and the team in those four games had avg.  3.7 ypc and had 2 tds

Stop it. 

We're talking about one guy who does his job well. 

If you have 5, 6 or 7 guys blocking and one guy clearly doing his job well, you still have 4, 5 or 6 guys who can **** it up.

On top of that, if the RB goes the wrong way, the play is dead. 

I just don't understand why people are downplaying how well All blocks in the run game. He's not turning the Bengals into a top 5 rushing team but he's solidifying what he's being asked to do, better than a lot of other guys. 

[*ochocincos*]

(Yesterday, 08:40 PM)Synric Wrote: It is slightly below league average. 


I think people misunderstand my point. Erick All was an average Move TE. What he did is allow the Bengals to open up their rush offense along with their screen game. 

With their current personnel they are locked into mostly A and B gap runs which doesn't make use of what makes Chase Brown elite his straight line explosive speed. It will also highlight his weakness lateral agility and vision. It could potentially open Brown up to more body shots increasing his chance of injury (which is something Mixon didn't get enough credit for as an in-between the tackles runner). 

I'm ok with the Bengals running game being slightly below league average when they are much more of a high passing offense.

The defense needs improved first before we start worrying about the running game averaging 4.5 YPC or better.

[XsandOs]

(Yesterday, 04:58 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I think that's because of how good CB is. I do think there's a noticible difference in EEs run blocking and DSs run blocking. Sample just isn't athletic enough to block in space. Big ole lug. 





7:08 mark, watch Sample whiff and run right past his guy...

On that same play, you can see All working really well in a crowd. 

I was at this game and All stood out. Physically, he looked as big as the OL. But his speed was amazing, in not only taking simple tosses/flats for good gains, but also in blocking.

He lined up in-line, in the backfield, and on the perimeter. 

On our first TD (8:24 mark) what this video doesn't show is that he was lined up outside with a CB on him, before he came across the entire formation to seal the LB for Brown's TD. 

Then coming out of half time, he caught the first ball for a first down, then had three great blocks for Brown that led to 40+ yards, putting us in the Panthers red zone. One of the blocks was on a safety 10 yards downfield on a swing pass to Brown. 

These plays signified to me that he is truly a complete TE. With him, you can show a power run and simultaneously a pass, from the same formation. 

Last year he caught 20 of 22 targets for 7.9 yards per. Taylor was opening the passing game for him with some curls and outs, but the unfortunate happened. 

[Essex Johnson]

(6 hours ago)XsandOs Wrote: I was at this game and All stood out. Physically, he looked as big as the OL. But his speed was amazing, in not only taking simple tosses/flats for good gains, but also in blocking.

He lined up in-line, in the backfield, and on the perimeter. 

On our first TD (8:24 mark) he was lined up outside with a CB on him, and he came across the entire formation to seal the LB for Brown's TD. 

Then coming out of half time, he caught the first ball for a first down, then had three great blocks for Brown that led to 40+ yards, putting us in the Panthers red zone. One of the blocks was on a safety 10 yards downfield on a swing pass to Brown. 

These plays signified to me hat he is truly a complete TE. With him, you can show a power run and simultaneously a pass, from the same formation. 

Last year he caught 20 of 22 targets for 7.9 yards per. Taylor was opening the passing game for him with some curls and outs, but the unfortunate happened. 

he had flashes no doubt, but we roll the year back one, we would be talking about Hudson at this point and his even better play in 2023 but last year he was not in the plans as much, you just can;t predict the future for players, and since Hudson is still here hope you gives us the Hudson of 23 not 24, as for All, doubt he sees the field for Bengals again but hope he recovers but now back to the thread at hand, im putting odds 35% Brooks makes roster, will be a practice squad player if not, we will see if we are able to keep him on PS.

[SunsetBengal]

(7 hours ago)ochocincos Wrote: I'm ok with the Bengals running game being slightly below league average when they are much more of a high passing offense.

The defense needs improved first before we start worrying about the running game averaging 4.5 YPC or better.

I've seen a few people say that, but I can't fully agree with that logic. I think that history shows that if you want to win a Championship, you're going to have to be able to play defense and run the ball at some point in the playoffs or Superbowl.

[XsandOs]

(5 hours ago)SunsetBengal Wrote: I've seen a few people say that, but I can't fully agree with that logic. I think that history shows that if you want to win a Championship, you're going to have to be able to play defense and run the ball at some point in the playoffs or Superbowl.

Agreed.

I am also not sure what "below average" means. 

[*ochocincos*]

(5 hours ago)SunsetBengal Wrote: I've seen a few people say that, but I can't fully agree with that logic. I think that history shows that if you want to win a Championship, you're going to have to be able to play defense and run the ball at some point in the playoffs or Superbowl.

If the Bengals really wanted to improve their running game, they should have invested in better IOL first and foremost.

But if we're just focusing on TEs, are Bengals in worse shape without Erick All compared to Cam Grandy?
Looking at last year, here are the PFF run blocking scores and run blocking snaps of All, Grandy, and Sample
All (109 snaps) - 49.9 run block grade (60.7 grade overall)
Sample (295 snaps) - 50.2 run block grade (48.5 grade overall)
Grandy (38 snaps - joined the Bengals after All went out for the year) - 65.6 run block grade (63.5 grade overall)

Can Grandy not be at least close to the level of blocking that Erick All was able to do?


The way I see it, this year, Bengals have Gesicki and Hudson as the pass catching TEs with Sample and Grandy as the run blocking ones.
It doesn't seem like the Bengals have an all-around TE with All out, but that's their fault for not getting (a better) one in the draft or FA.
I'm not expecting a big dropoff in the running game though compared to with or without All.
There may be some things the Bengals can't do (as well) with All out, but I would expect they can or should be able to adjust playcalling and adapt and succeed without relying solely on one role player.

[*ochocincos*]

(5 hours ago)XsandOs Wrote: Agreed.

I am also not sure what "below average" means. 

In my context, I was told 4.1 YPC earlier in the thread is "below average" for RBs last year, which I believe the average was 4.3.
4.3 and 4.1 is not so big of a difference (to me) that I would be so hugely concerned.
Maybe I'm still stuck in the past where anything 4.0 or above is satisfactory, but that's where I stand.