Bruce Jenner to Caitlyn Jenner

[BmorePat87]

(06-05-2015, 06:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hasn't he identified as a woman his whole life?

What makes one a "woman"?

There's a difference between believing you should be a woman and actually going about identifying as one. She entered the Olympics as a man when she still identified as one. 

[*bfine32*]

(06-05-2015, 06:55 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: There's a difference between believing you should be a woman and actually going about identifying as one. She entered the Olympics as a man when she still identified as one. 

So you consider her a man in 1976; she became a woman later?

[BmorePat87]

(06-05-2015, 07:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So you consider her a man in 1976; she became a woman later?

She publicly identified as a woman this year, so yea.


Also, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the IOC didn't recognize gender identity in 1976, so they aren't going to retroactively apply that now (assuming they even recognize gender identity now). 

[*bfine32*]

(06-05-2015, 07:14 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: She publicly identified as a woman this year, so yea.


Also, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the IOC didn't recognize gender identity in 1976, so they aren't going to retroactively apply that now (assuming they even recognize gender identity now). 

Well it seems we agree on something; as I consider him a man his whole life too. We just differ in the thought process that your gender changes simply because you say so publicly. 

[BmorePat87]

(06-05-2015, 07:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well it seems we agree on something; as I consider him a man his whole life too. We just differ in the thought process that your gender changes simply because you say so publicly. 

My thought process is understanding the definition of "gender" and not confusing it with "sex".

[*bfine32*]

(06-05-2015, 07:23 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: My thought process is understanding the definition of "gender" and not confusing it with "sex".

Me too; that's why I used man and woman instead of male and female.

Your assertion was that she was a "man" until she publicly stated she identified as a "woman". That's really the only part we disagree on.

[BmorePat87]

(06-05-2015, 07:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Me too; that's why I used man and woman instead of male and female.

Your assertion was that she was a "man" until she publicly stated she identified as a "woman". That's really the only part we disagree on.

Male/female is traditionally associated with sex. You have it backwards...

[*bfine32*]

(06-05-2015, 07:51 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Male/female is traditionally associated with sex. You have it backwards...

Perhaps I don't have it "backwards; as Jenner's issue is gender. Hence the use of Man/Woman and your assertion that you considered her a man early in her adulthood and did not consider her a woman until this year.There are those that would consider her a woman ever since she became aware of her feelings. 

If Jenner's issue were sex than I would have properly used male/female.
 

[BmorePat87]

(06-05-2015, 08:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Perhaps I don't have it "backwards; as Jenner's issue is gender. Hence the use of Man/Woman and your assertion that you considered her a man early in her adulthood and did not consider her a woman until this year.There are those that would consider her a woman ever since she became aware of her feelings. 

If Jenner's issue were sex than I would have properly used male/female.
 

Unfortunately you were forcing me to make assumptions as you kept voicing that you disagreed while simultaneously claiming you understood the meaning of gender. Given the fact that everything I stated was correct, I had to make the assumption.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are now stating that Caitlyn Jenner stopped being a woman the moment she started to believe she was identifying with the incorrect gender as opposed to the moment when she began publicly identifying herself as a woman?

I guess I do not have the same audacity that you have in deciding what someone's gender identification is prior to them announcing it. Fortunately for the sake of this conversation, your forced gender identification for Jenner is irrelevant as she was publicly identifying as a man during the Olympics.

[*bfine32*]

(06-05-2015, 08:38 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Unfortunately you were forcing me to make assumptions as you kept voicing that you disagreed while simultaneously claiming you understood the meaning of gender. Given the fact that everything I stated was correct, I had to make the assumption.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are now stating that Caitlyn Jenner stopped being a woman the moment she started to believe she was identifying with the incorrect gender as opposed to the moment when she began publicly identifying herself as a woman?

I guess I do not have the same audacity that you have in deciding what someone's gender identification is prior to them announcing it. Fortunately for the sake of this conversation, your forced gender identification for Jenner is irrelevant as she was publicly identifying as a man during the Olympics.

No one forced you to do anything; as you decided to answer a question I posed to another Board member and your "answer" was that she was not a woman is 1976. But I did see that you assured yourself that you were "correct".

I would answer the question you posed, but I must admit I am not sure what you are asking.

Sure you do; you said she wasn't a woman in 1976 because she didn't publicly identify.

[BmorePat87]

(06-05-2015, 09:09 PM)Gbfine32 Wrote: No one forced you to do anything; as you decided to answer a question I posed to another Board member and your "answer" was that she was not a woman is 1976. But I did see that you assured yourself that you were "correct".

I would answer the question you posed, but I must admit I am not sure what you are asking.

Sure you do; you said she wasn't a woman in 1976 because she didn't publicly identify.

It's quite clear. I'm not sure how you are not sure what I am asking. Are you saying that she stopped being a women when she believed she might be identifying as the wrong gender? Because you are suggesting that you disagree with my suggestion that the moment Caitlyn told us she's a women is when we should start identifying her as a woman. 

her... Not me. I said when she said it is when we should start referring to her as it. How is that me forcing a gender identification if I am saying that the individual determines it?

[Harmening]

As I understood, the IOC basically said "who cares?"

[*bfine32*]

(06-05-2015, 09:46 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It's quite clear. I'm not sure how you are not sure what I am asking. Are you saying that she stopped being a women when she believed she might be identifying as the wrong gender? Because you are suggesting that you disagree with my suggestion that the moment Caitlyn told us she's a women is when we should start identifying her as a woman. 

her... Not me. I said when she said it is when we should start referring to her as it. How is that me forcing a gender identification if I am saying that the individual determines it?

Oh, I think I've found the disconnect: you mean man here?

If that is what you are asking then to answer that question: No. I think she was and is a man and deserves the medals.

It's just that other suggest she has been a woman her whole life, not just the last year of her 65 on earth (we agree that those folks are wrong). I'm pretty sure she has even suggested she has identified herself as a woman for quite some time.

I just didn't realize you consider the transformation to be when they stated publicly.  What about those that are not in the public eye or never make a formal announcement?

[BmorePat87]

(06-05-2015, 10:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Oh, I think I've found the disconnect: you mean man here?

If that is what you are asking then to answer that question: No. I think she was and is a man and deserves the medals.

It's just that other suggest she has been a woman her whole life, not just the last year of her 65 on earth (we agree that those folks are wrong). I'm pretty sure she has even suggested she has identified herself as a woman for quite some time.

I just didn't realize you consider the transformation to be when they stated publicly.  What about those that are not in the public eye or never make a formal announcement?

I appreciate you finally explaining your issue with my statement. I realize that you claim that you know the definition of "gender", but saying she is a man would suggest otherwise. 

Gender is a social construct. If I identify as a gender and live as that gender, then I am that gender. If you can explain how Caitlyn isn't a woman, I'd love to hear it. Especially since you're using "she" and calling her a man in the same sentence.

Also, I too heard Caitlyn say in her interview that she privately identified as a woman for years before her "coming out". Having read up on this and knowing multiple trans people, I know that it isn't right to misgender before the person has announced it. As a member of the public and not a personal confidant of Caitlyn, it would have been incorrect for me to identify her as a woman prior to her stating it publicly.  That's why her public revelation is the correct time identify her as a woman. 

If you disagree, as a trans person you know. 

[*bfine32*]

(06-05-2015, 10:50 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I appreciate you finally explaining your issue with my statement. I realize that you claim that you know the definition of "gender", but saying she is a man would suggest otherwise. 

Gender is a social construct. If I identify as a gender and live as that gender, then I am that gender. If you can explain how Caitlyn isn't a woman, I'd love to hear it. Especially since you're using "she" and calling her a man in the same sentence.

Also, I too heard Caitlyn say in her interview that she privately identified as a woman for years before her "coming out". Having read up on this and knowing multiple trans people, I know that it isn't right to misgender before the person has announced it. As a member of the public and not a personal confidant of Caitlyn, it would have been incorrect for me to identify her as a woman prior to her stating it publicly.  That's why her public revelation is the correct time identify her as a woman. 

If you disagree, as a trans person you know. 

I had no "issue" with your statement (actually it was a question); it just made no sense as posed, regardless how clear you asserted it was.

Why are you trying so hard to make us disagree? We both agree that she was a man the 1st 64 years of her life; we just disagree about the last few weeks.

It just appears your answer is they change gender when the world knows it; not when they feel.

Enough of this. Let me end this in a way that will make us both happy: You're right.

[CKwi88]

(06-05-2015, 09:49 PM)Harmening Wrote: As I understood, the IOC basically said "who cares?"

If it were only so simple for everyone else. 

I personally think it's a shame that this is such a big deal, with all of the publicity and crap going one. And fault lies with both society and Jenner as well. 

Society should just get over the fact that a person who used to identify as a male publicly feels like they are female. It's not a big deal. Nobody is harmed by the decision, if anything other people who live repressed, scared, ashamed, or whatever will see it and realize that they can be who they want to be. 

It's 20 frickin 15. There shouldn't be a need for all this crap and hubbub. 

At the same time, Jenner doesn't need to parade through the media and make money off of this as much as she is. Having it treated as some big deal just makes it seem like a bigger deal than it should be. 

[BmorePat87]

(06-05-2015, 11:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I had no "issue" with your statement (actually it was a question); it just made no sense as posed, regardless how clear you asserted it was.

Why are you trying so hard to make us disagree? We both agree that she was a man the 1st 64 years of her life; we just disagree about the last few weeks.

It just appears your answer is they change gender when the world knows it; not when they feel.

Enough of this. Let me end this in a way that will make us both happy: You're right.

I don't want to disagree. I wanted to understand why you disagreed. I think we'd both agree that Caitlyn is still biologically male as her sex is still male. I was just curious as to why you thought she was not a woman.

[Tiger Teeth]

(06-05-2015, 06:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hasn't he identified as a woman his whole life?

What makes one a "woman"?

I would guess that having a menstrual cycle qualifies.

[*bfine32*]

(06-06-2015, 10:20 AM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: I would guess that having a menstrual cycle qualifies.

That would make one a female.

[Bengalzona]