List of QBs with most passing yards in first four seasons.

[Shake n Blake]

(06-06-2015, 10:17 AM)fredtoast Wrote: **EDIT** looked at the numbers and Dalton is actually tied at 11th with Joe Flacco for most games with a 100+ rating over the last four seasons.  Cam Newton is 10th.  Both Flacco and Newton have passer ratings in the 80's like Dalton, but the other 8 QBs on the list all have career ratings up in the 90's.

Some don't realize just how much these terrible games hurt Dalton's overall passer rating. Take Dalton's 2.0 game for an example. In that game, he went 10/33 with 86 yards and 3 int's. If that were a "normal" bad game, say...20-33-200-1-1 (75.3 passer rating), his overall passer rating for the season would've been 88.6, which is a huge jump from 83.5.

An 88.6 rating would've had him tied for 17th in passer rating. Instead, he finished 25th.

Basically, the 2.0 game defined his season and tanked his overall rating. 

[*Nately120*]

(06-07-2015, 04:47 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Basically, the 2.0 game defined his season and tanked his overall rating. 

Putting up an amazingly bad performance on national TV will do that to ya.

[*bengalfan74*]

(06-07-2015, 06:18 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Putting up an amazingly bad performance on national TV will do that to ya.

It was one of the toughest games I've watched since the 90's, and even passed most of them up.

[BengalChris]

(06-07-2015, 04:47 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Some don't realize just how much these terrible games hurt Dalton's overall passer rating. Take Dalton's 2.0 game for an example. In that game, he went 10/33 with 86 yards and 3 int's. If that were a "normal" bad game, say...20-33-200-1-1 (75.3 passer rating), his overall passer rating for the season would've been 88.6, which is a huge jump from 83.5.

An 88.6 rating would've had him tied for 17th in passer rating. Instead, he finished 25th.

Basically, the 2.0 game defined his season and tanked his overall rating. 

Yep! But Dalton did put up that game along with 4 playoff debacles. It's these kind of games that just irk fans.

But what irks me more than Dalton is that Lewis didn't pull Dalton when the team still had a chance. Of course, we didn't have a decent backup QB either, which I also hold Lewis accountable for.

This is why I hope McCarron really puts it together. The coach needs to be able to replace a player who just isn't getting it done while the team still has a chance to turn it around and pull out a win.

[*Nately120*]

(06-07-2015, 06:25 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: It was one of the toughest games I've watched since the 90's, and even passed most of them up.

The Chicago Bears were always my NFC team and that game reminded me of watching some of Rex Grossman's "bad rex" moments.  You don't really get upset, you just watch and bitterly laugh and can tell that absolutely nothing good is going to happen this game.  Andy has those moments a lot less than Rex, but you can often see the storm approaching, if you catch my drift.

[Shake n Blake]

(06-07-2015, 06:18 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Putting up an amazingly bad performance on national TV will do that to ya.

Right. My overall point there is that he's really not as bad as his season rating would suggest.

He obviously needs more consistency, and his bad games to not be so...terrible.

Unfortunately, the national TV thing has been a team-wide problem throughout the Marv era.

[fredtoast]

(06-07-2015, 12:21 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote:  
Dalton had 220 yds 3 TD’s 0 Int’s against a defense that was terrible.
QB’s with three TD’s against the 2014 Satins: Ryan, Romo, and Newton. 
QB’s with 0 Int’s against the 2014 Saints: Rayn (2x’s), Hoyer, Bridegwater,  Romo, Kaepernick, Flacco, and Newton
QB’s with more than 220 yds against the 2014 Saints: Ryan (448), Romo, Glennon, Stafford (no #81), Rodgers (418), Flacco, Roethlisberger (435), Newton, Ryan.

Still think Dalton “shredded” the Saints?

It is amazing the lengths you will gpo to bash agood performance by Dalton.

If 3 tds was so easy to get then why were only 3 other QBs in the league able to do it?  And why were only TWO able to get 3 tds and zero ints?

And there have been plenty of other good games Dalton has had against good teams.

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-04-2015, 10:22 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: They were 4-12 when he took over.  As the QB, he has to get some credit for the turn around.  With Gresham gone, Dalton and Green are basically the oldest skill players on the offense.  It's not like he inherited a good team.

Exactly.  I was hoping no one would start praising Palmer at the sight of this list.  He had Chad, TJ, Chris Henry, and a Pro Bowl guy in Rudi Johnson that was a beast.  The Bengals had a ton of offensive talent for Carson in those years.  If everyone can stay healthy, I think Andy can have one of the best offensive rosters in Bengal history.  Finally!

[BengalChris]

(06-08-2015, 08:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It is amazing the lengths you will gpo to bash agood performance by Dalton.

If 3 tds was so easy to get then why were only 3 other QBs in the league able to do it?  And why were only TWO able to get 3 tds and zero ints?

And there have been plenty of other good games Dalton has had against good teams.

People have already made up their minds about Dalton. The whole idea of trying to convince people to change their minds at this point is rather ridiculous. Some people really like him and point out his good points. Other people don't like him and point to his bad points.

Good points are: He's been the QB for 4 consecutive playoff appearances, he's had some pretty darn good games in that time. He's better than average during the regular season.

Bad points are: He's played very poorly in the playoff games and currently is tied for the worse playoff record in NFL history. Has some days where he just plays horribly by anyone's measure. He's worse than average in the playoffs and big games and Thursday night games.

The only person in the universe who can change people's minds at this point is Dalton himself. If he wants to win over more fans he's going to need to have a much better year than last year. Another year like last year and the number of fans calling for change is going to grow significantly.

People like or don't like Dalton based on his play. I hope he has a much better year in 2015 and we finally see some good playoff games from this team. But I'm not buying any of the off season hype. I need to see it during the season and playoffs.

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-04-2015, 01:59 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: It also didn't help that Carson threw 5 pick 6's (all in losing causes) to Dalton's 1 (A win against Buffalo).

I remember that.  I was going to change Palmer's number to -6 since he had so many.  Then he quit.  I still can't believe how the media has still supported Palmer through it all and continued to slam the Bengals. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-04-2015, 06:47 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: http://www.nfl.com/podcasts?id=26d688927df08855d267faf0bc1c3593

Gil is a respected NFL talking head and so are these guys who say that Dalton's numbers lie because he "feast" on the bad teams and wilts against top competition. Listen for yourself. Or you can skip to the stats in my sig for a clear picture of Mr.Dalton's performance against good teams or divisional and playoff games. You can not win those types of games with an average talent...thus the "QB purgatory hell of the Dalton Scale".

So, based on your statements, I assume that you believe that when a WR or TE fail to generate any separation against "top competition" that it falls back on the QB?  The bottom line that I have for Dalton is that when he is kept clean, he picks teams apart.  That is not to imply that he "wilts in the face of a pass rush", but just that when he is given a little bit of time, he picks teams apart.  I think the team's investments in TEs and the offensive line in this year's draft will only help. 

And 11-13, in his first four seasons, in the toughest division in football that had two recent Super Bowl Champs isn't what I would call a failure.  If you remember, all the talking heads gave the disclaimer "Dalton has to beat the best in the division before anyone will take him seriously" after his rookie season.  Sophomore season, they split.  The talking heads returned with "Dalton has to win the division before anyone will take him seriously" Junior season, won the AFC North and broke the franchise record for passing yards and TDs. The talking heads return with "No one will take him seriously until he wins a playoff game"....and they lost in Indy.  I think this year, he not only checks the box of playoff win, but gets them all the way to the AFC Championship Game. 

I think it helps Brady a great deal that he has had the weak Bills, Fins, and Jets to kick around for most of his career.  They all look better for this year, but Geno Smith, EJ Manuel, and Ryan Tannehill? 

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-08-2015, 10:33 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: So, based on your statements, I assume that you believe that when a WR or TE fail to generate any separation against "top competition" that it falls back on the QB?  The bottom line that I have for Dalton is that when he is kept clean, he picks teams apart.  That is not to imply that he "wilts in the face of a pass rush", but just that when he is given a little bit of time, he picks teams apart.  I think the team's investments in TEs and the offensive line in this year's draft will only help. 

And 11-13, in his first four seasons, in the toughest division in football that had two recent Super Bowl Champs isn't what I would call a failure.  If you remember, all the talking heads gave the disclaimer "Dalton has to beat the best in the division before anyone will take him seriously" after his rookie season.  Sophomore season, they split.  The talking heads returned with "Dalton has to win the division before anyone will take him seriously" Junior season, won the AFC North and broke the franchise record for passing yards and TDs. The talking heads return with "No one will take him seriously until he wins a playoff game"....and they lost in Indy.  I think this year, he not only checks the box of playoff win, but gets them all the way to the AFC Championship Game. 

I think it helps Brady a great deal that he has had the weak Bills, Fins, and Jets to kick around for most of his career.  They all look better for this year, but Geno Smith, EJ Manuel, and Ryan Tannehill? 

People pretend as if the AFC North is a weak division.  Steelers and Ravens have traditionally had some of the best defenses in football.  Couple that with outdoor stadiums and a lot of cold weather games and that record sort of makes sense for a young QB.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-05-2015, 11:33 AM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: I think the explanation for Dalton's pretty stats is actually pretty straightforward.

One thing you have to credit Dalton for was coming into the league very pro-ready. This would make sense, since Gruden and Lewis knew they didn't have time to draft a project QB who might not be able to start right away (I.E. Mallet or Kaepernick).

But that has it's pros and cons. Rookie Dalton is what Dalton is/was/is going to be, considering he has hardly improved since 2011. Not to say Dalton is bad, but expecting him to have a mid-career renaissance (ala Drew Brees) is nothing more than a pipe dream.

I completely disagree.  Pro ready?  Based on what?  He took every snap out of shotgun in a spread offense.  He had to learn a whole new system without the benefit of OTAs.  He may have been more "Pro Ready" than guys like Kaepernick because he was more of a QB than an option QB, but give him credit for his rookie performance in the face of a TON of adversity, please.

And "hardly improved" since 2011 isn't accurate at all.  He broke franchise records in his third season for passing yards and TDs.  He won a VERY tough AFC North.  What happened in 2014?  A new offense, losing two of his biggest weapons before the season even really got started, and being without his best weapon for some of the season and his numbers regressed. 

I think this next season will show what Dalton and Hue are truly capable of executing with the full complement of receivers and backs.  It should help that the guy snapping the ball has a season under his belt as well and the offensive line looks as deep and talented as it ever has for Dalton.  The emergence of Hill will also put added pressure on opposing defenses. 

Dalton had one year where the needle stopped moving upward.  It was a speed bump, not a ceiling.  He will continue to move upward in 2015. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-06-2015, 10:20 AM)McC Wrote: This is the most maddening thing about him.  His best is really good.  If only someone could find the magic key to unlock that vault permanently.

It's pretty simple.  Keep him clean.  Keep his receivers healthy.  He picks teams apart. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-06-2015, 03:34 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Making the Super Bowl versus wilting in the first round against a 3rd string QB?  I sense a difference there.

I'm assuming you are talking about the defense now, unless it was Dalton that played MLB so poorly that game.

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-07-2015, 03:37 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: All this really shows is he's played in a lot of games through four years.  I'm sorry to be the bad guy here, the Debbie Downer, but that's what these "Andy Dalton through 4 years" stats mean.  That he's a modern QB that has started a lot of games since day 1.

First of all, any QB prior to 1990 is going to be judge entirely differently because the game was entirely different.  Even pre 2000 it was different.  Heck, really in the last 7 years passing numbers have exploded.  You've seen double digit percentage increases in all the major categories just in Marvin's time.

So when you bring a QB's total yardage now vs QB's of the past it's not at all apples to apples.

How many QB's started from day 1?  What if a QB starts year 2 and post way better numbers in years 2, 3, and 4?  Did he have a worse start to his career than the the guy who started since day 1, simply because his totals are lower?

I don't know if many of you are just being stubborn or short-sided with these types of stats.  It pretty clear that all they really say is Andy played in more games than most people and that he played in post 2010, where even average QB's throw for 4,000 yards.  That's it.

Andy Dalton has started a lot games.  The end.  In no way does that make the start to his career better than someone who didn't play four straight 16 games seasons.  

How true.  And a good thing Ponder, Gabbert, and Locker didn't start as many games or their franchises would have experienced an even darker four years.  Oh, and all of those guys were drafted before Dalton. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(06-08-2015, 10:46 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I completely disagree.  Pro ready?  Based on what?  He took every snap out of shotgun in a spread offense.  He had to learn a whole new system without the benefit of OTAs.  He may have been more "Pro Ready" than guys like Kaepernick because he was more of a QB than an option QB, but give him credit for his rookie performance in the face of a TON of adversity, please.

And "hardly improved" since 2011 isn't accurate at all.  He broke franchise records in his third season for passing yards and TDs.  He won a VERY tough AFC North.  What happened in 2014?  A new offense, losing two of his biggest weapons before the season even really got started, and being without his best weapon for some of the season and his numbers regressed. 

I think this next season will show what Dalton and Hue are truly capable of executing with the full complement of receivers and backs.  It should help that the guy snapping the ball has a season under his belt as well and the offensive line looks as deep and talented as it ever has for Dalton.  The emergence of Hill will also put added pressure on opposing defenses. 

Dalton had one year where the needle stopped moving upward.  It was a speed bump, not a ceiling.  He will continue to move upward in 2015. 

Racer I agree with most of what you say. But what kills Dalton is his low's are so very low. Every QB has bad games, Brady, Manning, Rodgers included. But even in most of their bad games they still manage to put up some decent numbers. Dalton on the other hand has meltdowns of epic proportions ! And only has a handful of "big games" where he's shown up.

He has to find a way to even out his bad games and show up under the lights to shake his current image.

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-08-2015, 02:53 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Right. My overall point there is that he's really not as bad as his season rating would suggest.

He obviously needs more consistency, and his bad games to not be so...terrible.

Unfortunately, the national TV thing has been a team-wide problem throughout the Marv era.

I'm not sure I follow this logic.  I mean, that game happened.  It counted.  Not only that, but we've seen similar lows from him numerous times.  So I'm not even sure you could say it was that much an anomaly. 

Being fair, he's as bad or as good in 2014 as his total stats add up to.  I mean, what's to stop us from taking some of his better games off his stat line, because they weren't the norm, to try insinuate that he was really worse?  What would be the difference?

-Andy Dalton posted a QB ranking that ranked 25thth among qualifying QB's. (200 attempts or more)

-Mark Sanchez, Kyle Orton, Teddy Bridgewater, Austin Davis and Shaun Hill all had higher ratings.

-Jay Cutler, who was benched, posted a QB rating that was over 5 pts higher.

-He threw for under 20 TD's. (19)

-Despite ranking 18th in TD's, he ranked 3rd in INT's.  (His TD to INT ratio was awful)

The guy had a really disappointing year, especially coming off that boneheaded extension.  He had yet another dismal performance in the postseason as well.  I'm sorry, but it's hard to get very excited for his prospects moving forward.  Primetime game or no primetime game, the guy played lilke a bum last season.

[Wes Mantooth]

(06-08-2015, 11:01 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: How true.  And a good thing Ponder, Gabbert, and Locker didn't start as many games or their franchises would have experienced an even darker four years.  Oh, and all of those guys were drafted before Dalton. 

My goals for my starting QB go beyond outplaying draft busts taken ahead of him.  Twenty years from now I won't be telling myself about "old school Bengals QB" outperforming "first round bust" from same draft class.  I'll just being trying to remember how he and the team did.

Andy needs to do much better for us to improve.  I couldn't care less about Ponder, Gabbert or Locker.  Two are backups and one is out of the league.  I'd prefer to compare our starting QB, who just signed a huge extension, to other starting QB's.  You know, his peers.

[McC]

(06-08-2015, 11:40 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: My goals for my starting QB go beyond outplaying draft busts taken ahead of him.  Twenty years from now I won't be telling myself about "old school Bengals QB" outperforming "first round bust" from same draft class.  I'll just being trying to remember how he and the team did.

Andy needs to do much better for us to improve.  I couldn't care less about Ponder, Gabbert or Locker.  Two are backups and one is out of the league.  I'd prefer to compare our starting QB, who just signed a huge extension, to other starting QB's.  You know, his peers.

Maybe the ultimate point is that it was not a great year to be be needing to draft a QB.