Marvin Lewis Extension Still Leaves A Bad Taste In My Mouth

[Ben Richards]

(06-05-2015, 09:43 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yes, but the Saints, Buccaneers, and Colts all just changed coaches because they couldn't get over the playoff hump.....worked pretty well for them.  Cleveland is a bad example.....

This 'playoff hump' you speak of is not a tangible thing.  Take a look at teams that swap out coaches every 2-3 years.  They are the bottom feeders of the league.  CLE, WAS, OAK, JAX, TEN, etc

Watch how quickly SF falls after firing Harbaugh for that idiot Tomsula.  Look at how terrible CHI is after firing Lovie after a 10 win season. Stability breeds W's.  Look at the other team in our division... the one with fat idiot fans that join a Bengals message board.  They have had 3 coaches in 20+ years.  Not all of those seasons were winners.  

[Ben Richards]

(06-05-2015, 10:06 AM)Nately120 Wrote: You don't just change coaches because he can't win a playoff game?  Really?  It seems like that is what other franchises do, 

And if everyone jumped off a cliff I suppose you would just follow right along, huh lemming. 

[*Nately120*]

(06-05-2015, 10:16 AM)Ben Richards Wrote: And if everyone jumped off a cliff I suppose you would just follow right along, huh lemming. 

Apparently there are playoff wins at the bottom of that cliff, so yes.

[PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop]

*UNPOPULAR OPINION ALERT*

I actually think Marvin is truly an underrated coach on these boards. 100 career wins and 6 playoff appearances in 12 years, all with a franchise that without him would more than likely still be among the likes of Oakland, Cleveland, and Detroit.

Are there better coaches out there? Yes. Definitely. However, that doesn't mean the issue with the Bengals is Marvin Lewis.

The Bengals have organizational issues and a quarterback of average ability. Not to say we can't win a Super Bowl with these elements holding us back, just that our chances are diminished considering the level of talent and coaching this roster has at its disposal.

[McC]

(06-05-2015, 01:34 AM)Benton Wrote: No real reason, but my thoughts are it's a transition year. They give the contract so there's no distraction, but there's one of two outcomes Marvin lays his usual egg and the team moves on to a new coach, or Marvin finally succeeds and they talk about the future.

But that' just my guess.

Sounds about right.  I'd call that a pretty good guess.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-05-2015, 10:13 AM)Ben Richards Wrote: This 'playoff hump' you speak of is not a tangible thing.  Take a look at teams that swap out coaches every 2-3 years.  They are the bottom feeders of the league.  CLE, WAS, OAK, JAX, TEN, etc

Watch how quickly SF falls after firing Harbaugh for that idiot Tomsula.  Look at how terrible CHI is after firing Lovie after a 10 win season. Stability breeds W's.  Look at the other team in our division... the one with fat idiot fans that join a Bengals message board.  They have had 3 coaches in 20+ years.  Not all of those seasons were winners.  

....but that's an apples to oranges comparison.....those teams have been swapping coaches for years (except TEN, who had Jeff Fischer forever).  The teams I showed you were perennial playoff contenders that couldn't get that elusive victory, then went on to win the Super Bowl.....almost identical scenario as what we have here.

Saints let Jim Mora go....took a while....but they won it all.

Colts let Jim Mora go, bring in Dungy, win it all.

Bucs let Dungy go, bring in Gruden, win it all.

We're not talking about shitty franchises here, we're talking about perennial playoff losers that went out on a limb and got out of the comfort zone to go on to better things....


EDIT: ....and it's important to note that those coaches' tenures coincided with big turnarounds for those downtrodden franchises. The Bucs were turning a corner with recent drafts under Sam Wyche, but the Colts and Saints were both TERRIBLE before Mora showed up. Some coaches are good at rebuilding things, but can't raise the bar beyond that.....I think that's where Marvin is.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-05-2015, 11:02 AM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: *UNPOPULAR OPINION ALERT*

I actually think Marvin is truly an underrated coach on these boards. 100 career wins and 6 playoff appearances in 12 years, all with a franchise that without him would more than likely still be among the likes of Oakland, Cleveland, and Detroit.

Are there better coaches out there? Yes. Definitely. However, that doesn't mean the issue with the Bengals is Marvin Lewis.

The Bengals have organizational issues and a quarterback of average ability. Not to say we can't win a Super Bowl with these elements holding us back, just that our chances are diminished considering the level of talent and coaching this roster has at its disposal.

.....but we still looked like hot dog shit in big games and the playoffs with a #1 overall pick and Hiesman Trophy winner at QB, so..........

[PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop]

(06-05-2015, 11:19 AM)Wyche Wrote: .....but we still looked like hot dog shit in big games and the playoffs with a #1 overall pick and Hiesman Trophy winner at QB, so..........

If that was 2005 Palmer rather than 2009 Palmer I might of been able to see what you're saying.

People are so slow to admit that Palmer was hardly mediocre during his last few years here.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-05-2015, 11:24 AM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: If that was 2005 Palmer rather than 2009 Palmer I might of been able to see what you're saying.

People are so slow to admit that Palmer was hardly mediocre during his last few years here.

......and others are slow to admit that he looks better in Arizona at 35 with a bum shoulder too.....wonder why he looked so much better last season before the knee, after looking like dookie here?  Hmmmmmmm.......

[GodFather]

(06-05-2015, 11:17 AM)Wyche Wrote: ....but that's an apples to oranges comparison.....those teams have been swapping coaches for years (except TEN, who had Jeff Fischer forever).  The teams I showed you were perennial playoff contenders that couldn't get that elusive victory, then went on to win the Super Bowl.....almost identical scenario as what we have here.

Saints let Jim Mora go....took a while....but they won it all.

Colts let Jim Mora go, bring in Dungy, win it all.

Bucs let Dungy go, bring in Gruden, win it all.

We're not talking about shitty franchises here, we're talking about perennial playoff losers that went out on a limb and got out of the comfort zone to go on to better things....

Exactly. This team has gone through alot of changes in the past decade, completely different players, multiple OC, DC and the one constant is Lewis. He can't step up and play with the big boys when it comes to the playoffs. He's lost 6 first round playoff games and the thing that is telling is they've ALL looked unprepared and not ready for the spotlight in playoff time. Were talking different players and OC/DC that went through this yet it all looks the same.

With the talent we have in players I truly believe another coach would've taken us past the first round of the playoffs. 

[Tiger Teeth]

(06-05-2015, 11:37 AM)GodFather Wrote: With the talent we have in players I truly believe another coach would've taken us past the first round of the playoffs. 

And possibly to the Super Bowl.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-05-2015, 11:37 AM)GodFather Wrote: Exactly. This team has gone through alot of changes in the past decade, completely different players, multiple OC, DC and the one constant is Lewis. He can't step up and play with the big boys when it comes to the playoffs. He's lost 6 first round playoff games and the thing that is telling is they've ALL looked unprepared and not ready for the spotlight in playoff time. Were talking different players and OC/DC that went through this yet it all looks the same.

With the talent we have in players I truly believe another coach would've taken us past the first round of the playoffs. 

I think this is VERY telling......

.....also, check out my edit to that post, kinda elaborates more and reflects more on our situation...

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-05-2015, 10:13 AM)Ben Richards Wrote: This 'playoff hump' you speak of is not a tangible thing.  Take a look at teams that swap out coaches every 2-3 years.  They are the bottom feeders of the league.  CLE, WAS, OAK, JAX, TEN, etc

Watch how quickly SF falls after firing Harbaugh for that idiot Tomsula.  Look at how terrible CHI is after firing Lovie after a 10 win season. Stability breeds W's.  Look at the other team in our division... the one with fat idiot fans that join a Bengals message board.  They have had 3 coaches in 20+ years.  Not all of those seasons were winners.  

Stability breeds wins, but if after a period of time your HC hasn't shown an ability to get over the hump, making a change isn't necessarily a bad thing or a harbinger of becoming a bottom-feeder. The key to making a change is choosing a new HC that can maintain what you've been able to do, while getting over the playoff loss hump. 

Whether you can find that coach to come to Cincy is another question. But change isn't a guarantee of a step back.

[PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop]

(06-05-2015, 11:28 AM)that Wyche Wrote: ......and others are slow to admit that he looks better in Arizona at 35 with a bum shoulder too.....wonder why he looked so much better last season before the knee, after looking like dookie here?  Hmmmmmmm.......

Palmer looked good for the same reasons Dalton looks all right here: He has a good team doing a lot of the work for him.

The drop-off between him and Stanton wasn't that dramatic if Palmer is supposed to be the fully-developed pro version of a Heisman trophy winner (not that a Heisman trophy should have any bearing on a pro career anyways).

[*Nately120*]

(06-05-2015, 11:28 AM)Wyche Wrote: ......and others are slow to admit that he looks better in Arizona at 35 with a bum shoulder too.....wonder why he looked so much better last season before the knee, after looking like dookie here?  Hmmmmmmm.......

2010 had Palmer slinging it around too much trying to play catch-up with a schedule where 10 of our 16 games were against teams that finished the season with 10-14 wins.  You know what the darndest stat of them all may be?

Palmer in 2010 - 586 pass attempts (highest in career) = 20 INTs
Dalton in 2013 - 586 pass attempts (highest in career) = 20 INTs

[PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop]

(06-05-2015, 11:37 AM)GodFather Wrote: Exactly. This team has gone through alot of changes in the past decade, completely different players, multiple OC, DC and the one constant is Lewis. He can't step up and play with the big boys when it comes to the playoffs. He's lost 6 first round playoff games and the thing that is telling is they've ALL looked unprepared and not ready for the spotlight in playoff time. Were talking different players and OC/DC that went through this yet it all looks the same.

With the talent we have in players I truly believe another coach would've taken us past the first round of the playoffs. 

Hence my point.

How about a wager. Pick any team that has not made the playoffs since 2005. Any team.

Now, pick ANY football coach (current or former).

Can you picture your team winning in the playoffs if they started tomorrow with your hand-picked head coach? Why or why not?

(I really should make the wager since 1995, but not many teams can match the Bengals' previous playoff futility.)

I'll answer your rebuttal.

[*Nately120*]

(06-05-2015, 11:47 AM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: Palmer looked good for the same reasons Dalton looks all right here: He has a good team doing a lot of the work for him.

The drop-off between him and Stanton wasn't that dramatic if Palmer is supposed to be the fully-developed pro version of a Heisman trophy winner (not that a Heisman trophy should have any bearing on a pro career anyways).

The offense took a pretty big hit after Palmer went down.  You could say the season was super-over when Stanton got injured, but the drop off from Palmer to Stanton was seen on paper and in the wins column.  Stanton played admirably, but I'd say losing neraly 8% on the completion %, over 16 points in QBR, and throwing 1 less TD and tossing an extra pick per game are decent enough drops to be noticeable.

Now the drop from Stanton to Lindley was a killer, that's for sure.

[PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop]

(06-05-2015, 11:59 AM)Nately120 Wrote: The offense took a pretty big hit after Palmer went down.  You could say the season was super-over when Stanton got injured, but the drop off from Palmer to Stanton was seen on paper and in the wins column.  Stanton played admirably, but I'd say losing neraly 8% on the completion %, over 16 points in QBR, and throwing 1 less TD and tossing an extra pick per game are decent enough drops to be noticeable.

Now the drop from Stanton to Lindley was a killer, that's for sure.

The fact that they were able to play well with Stanton still proves my point, I think.

Imagine if Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers goes down. How well do you think that team plays if one of those guys goes down for the year. Well enough to make the playoffs? Possible, but unlikely.

[*Nately120*]

(06-05-2015, 12:07 PM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: The fact that they were able to play well with Stanton still proves my point, I think.

Imagine if Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers goes down. How well do you think that team plays if one of those guys goes down for the year. Well enough to make the playoffs? Possible, but unlikely.

Peyton and Rogers have both gone down (as did Brady).  The Colts tanked the season and the Packers and Patriots made the playoffs (or should have, in the Patriots' case) as Matt Flynn and Matt Cassel both played quite well in the system and then were sniped by teams that needed them to be the #1 guy and they petered out.

I assure you if Stanton played well enough in Palmer's absence that he would be on a Josh McCown-style starting contract with Cleveland or Buffalo or Houston right now.  Many backups come in and show some flashes but then revert back to mediocrity and/or get injured pretty quickly.  Stanton fell into both traps.  If Palmer gets hurt in 2013 it probably isn't as big a deal, but the guy was playing really well in 2014.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-05-2015, 11:47 AM)PlayerFormerlyKnownAsMousecop Wrote: Palmer looked good for the same reasons Dalton looks all right here: He has a good team doing a lot of the work for him.

The drop-off between him and Stanton wasn't that dramatic if Palmer is supposed to be the fully-developed pro version of a Heisman trophy winner (not that a Heisman trophy should have any bearing on a pro career anyways).

.....that's debatable.....but one theory is it's the surrounding cast (a surrounding cast that won just 5 games the year before he arrived, btw, but I digress), and another is that he finally got some good coaching.....I guess we'll agree to disagree......