Lost another coach

[JSR18]

(01-27-2016, 05:35 PM)ItsOdellThurman Wrote: Wow.

The Titans already completely screwed up keeping Mularkey.  Now they hire Bratkowski.

That'll put Mariotta back into the stone age...

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-27-2016, 09:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Zerk also hates Bodine with a fiery passion and Bodine was hand picked by PA. PA was so excited about the dude that we traded up (unheard of for Cincy) to get him. OL coaches have been fired for less than that. I don't feel like getting into a 3 page debate on this, but I think our pass pro was exposed a bit when Dalton went down. Sure, Macaroni often held on too long, but still. To go from a 20 sack pace to a 50+ sack pace with McCarron was pretty extreme. The run game was awful all year. 

Even if PA isn't as bad as some think, he certainly doesn't have a flawless resume like some think. Fwiw, last year was the only year since 2006 that we finished higher than 20th in yards per carry. With the talent we have at RB, there's no excuse for that.

So true, all of this.

[fredtoast]

(01-27-2016, 05:35 PM)ItsOdellThurman Wrote: Wow.

The Titans already completely screwed up keeping Mularkey.  Now they hire Bratkowski.

Hey, aren't we are supposed to be jealous of Titan fans because their team won a playoff game in 2003?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-27-2016, 10:50 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Because coaches aren't automatically scouts. 
Bengals ask their coaches to do more scouting than a lot of teams due to our smaller scouting departments. That's a Mike Brown personnel issue. Not a coaching issue. 

Well, if PA wanted Bodine enough for us to trade up for him and he has been this bad it still says a lot.

It does to me and many others anyway.

[fredtoast]

(01-28-2016, 01:14 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Well, if PA wanted Bodine enough for us to trade up for him and he has been this bad it still says a lot.

It does to me and many others anyway.

It says he missed on a fourth round pick.  That happens to every O-line coach.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-28-2016, 01:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It says he missed on a fourth round pick.  That happens to every O-line coach.

We traded up for him though, that is different. Name me a coach here that has traded up for what he says is "his guy"
and "his guy" has failed this miserably in his first two years? Answer is nobody. Like others have said, other OL coaches
have been fired for less.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(01-28-2016, 01:14 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Well, if PA wanted Bodine enough for us to trade up for him and he has been this bad it still says a lot.

It does to me and many others anyway.

It says he's not a great scout. Especially for centers.

It doesn't say anything about him as a coach. 

[fredtoast]

(01-28-2016, 01:31 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: We traded up for him though, that is different. Name me a coach here that has traded up for what he says is "his guy"
and "his guy" has failed this miserably in his first two years? Answer is nobody. Like others have said, other OL coaches
have been fired for less.

Okay, I have not done the research, but what are you willing to bet that I can find MORE THAN ONE occasion where a team traded up to get a player that flopped?

Is that seriously your argument against PA.  he was the reason the bengals wre the first team ever  to trade up for a player who flopped?

what about the fact that there have been tons of first and second round pick offensive linemen who have flopped, but that has never once happend to PA.  Do you give him any credit for that?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-28-2016, 01:38 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: It says he's not a great scout. Especially for centers.

It doesn't say anything about him as a coach. 

He oughtta know something about the player he wants...

Upside i guess is where he got it wrong with Bodine. He does have weight room strength but that does not always translate.

(01-28-2016, 01:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay, I have not done the research, but what are you willing to bet that I can find MORE THAN ONE occasion where a team traded up to get a player that flopped?

Is that seriously your argument against PA.  he was the reason the bengals wre the first team ever  to trade up for a player who flopped?

what about the fact that there have been tons of first and second round pick offensive linemen who have flopped, but that has never once happend to PA.  Do you give him any credit for that?

Nah, i was talking about on the Bengals. We don't trade up very often and for us to do so for PA's guy says somethin to me.

I do give him credit for that, Whitworth has been great, Smith and Zeit have definately not flopped.

Boling has actually done very well, i will give him some credit for coaching him up.

Bodine? Not so much.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(01-28-2016, 02:11 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: He oughtta know something about the player he wants...

Upside i guess is where he got it wrong with Bodine. He does have weight room strength but that does not always translate.


Nah, i was talking about on the Bengals. We don't trade up very often and for us to do so for PA's guy says somethin to me.

I do give him credit for that, Whitworth has been great, Smith and Zeit have definately not flopped.

Boling has actually done very well, i will give him some credit for coaching him up.

Bodine? Not so much.

But there's still a difference. Coaches are eternally optimistic and arrogant. They think they can fix a player and "coach them up"
Scouts are usually more "are they good or aren't they" 

We didn't so much trade up for PAs guy as we traded up for who they thought was the best center left after having ZERO plans to replace Cook after he retired. That's a structural issue from the FO. 

Bodine, IMO, profiled as a career backup and spot starter. He has a lot of the qualities coaches like. He's well spoken, he's smart and he can make calls. Problem is, he isn't very sound in his technique and he doesn't translate his power to the field because of it. That's the difference between a scout and a coach. Coaches love guys who can learn plays fast and make those calls, especially at center. They think, hey I can fix his issue with his hands too wide or not getting his feet under him or being to slow to cut off a DT on a stretch. But not all of those problems can be fixed on every player. He drafted a guy who fits what would be a good coach. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-28-2016, 10:41 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But coaching the #1 pass protecting O-line over the last 8 years (according to PFF) should not get you fired.

Here is what smart NFL teams do.  Instead of just pointing fingers they actually look for the problem.  Last year we had a very good running game.  This year we had the same coaches, O-line, and healthier RBs, yet our run game struggled.  So if Alexander is to blame there might be grounds to fire him, but can any of you point to some direct evidence that Alexander was to blame.  it sounds tough to say "He is to blame because he is the coach", but that type of thinking has gotten alot of good coaches fired without actually fixing any problems.

.....at some point you have to cut all ties to past failures if you want to proceed.  The numbers show we don't run block very well, and without Andy, the pass blocking wasn't that great, and yes, I know, AJ held on to the ball too long.  Palmer took some shots too, and has been proven over the years on here, PFF is not the end all, be all.  This line should be good, look at all of the talent on it.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-28-2016, 02:38 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: But there's still a difference. Coaches are eternally optimistic and arrogant. They think they can fix a player and "coach them up"
Scouts are usually more "are they good or aren't they" 

We didn't so much trade up for PAs guy as we traded up for who they thought was the best center left after having ZERO plans to replace Cook after he retired. That's a structural issue from the FO. 

Bodine, IMO, profiled as a career backup and spot starter. He has a lot of the qualities coaches like. He's well spoken, he's smart and he can make calls. Problem is, he isn't very sound in his technique and he doesn't translate his power to the field because of it. That's the difference between a scout and a coach. Coaches love guys who can learn plays fast and make those calls, especially at center. They think, hey I can fix his issue with his hands too wide or not getting his feet under him or being to slow to cut off a DT on a stretch. But not all of those problems can be fixed on every player. He drafted a guy who fits what would be a good coach. 

Okay, nice post man.

I will ask you this though, do you think PA will even look for another Center in this Draft?

It might equate to them admitting to making a mistake with Bodine.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(01-28-2016, 02:53 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Okay, nice post man.

I will ask you this though, do you think PA will even look for another Center in this Draft?

It might equate to them admitting to making a mistake with Bodine.

I think they will.
It won't be really early simply because we took two tackles so earl last year. Have to spread money around.

But in the 3-6 range it would be ideal. We need a back up for guard and center. 

I don't think that will factor in. If there's a player who is good, they will take them. 2 years is about the typical length of rope they give guys.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-28-2016, 02:38 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: But there's still a difference. Coaches are eternally optimistic and arrogant. They think they can fix a player and "coach them up"
Scouts are usually more "are they good or aren't they" 

We didn't so much trade up for PAs guy as we traded up for who they thought was the best center left after having ZERO plans to replace Cook after he retired. That's a structural issue from the FO. 

Bodine, IMO, profiled as a career backup and spot starter. He has a lot of the qualities coaches like. He's well spoken, he's smart and he can make calls. Problem is, he isn't very sound in his technique and he doesn't translate his power to the field because of it. That's the difference between a scout and a coach. Coaches love guys who can learn plays fast and make those calls, especially at center. They think, hey I can fix his issue with his hands too wide or not getting his feet under him or being to slow to cut off a DT on a stretch. But not all of those problems can be fixed on every player. He drafted a guy who fits what would be a good coach. 

Why can't he fix those issues though, the esteem he is held in around here in some circles would insinuate he could coach me up off of my couch after 22 years of not playing.  This is the point, yeah, he flubbed a draft pick, no big deal, but when he has anything below a third rounder (hell, I'd even say a 2nd), they're usually not very good......and before we go there, Boling was projected higher and a top prospect at G.  Hell, look what Hayes got out of a couple of 4th rounders on the interior D line, and he was sent packing.....or got pissed off one.  After a quarter of century, it's time for fresh eyes and ideas.....especially when the old ones are part of an epic failure.  JMO.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-28-2016, 02:55 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I think they will.
It won't be really early simply because we took two tackles so earl last year. Have to spread money around.

But in the 3-6 range it would be ideal. We need a back up for guard and center. 

I don't think that will factor in. If there's a player who is good, they will take them. 2 years is about the typical length of rope they give guys.

Hope you are right, we need a decent Center. Our one gaping hole.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(01-28-2016, 02:56 PM)Wyche Wrote: Why can't he fix those issues though, the esteem he is held in around here in some circles would insinuate he could coach me up off of my couch after 22 years of not playing.  This is the point, yeah, he flubbed a draft pick, no big deal, but when he has anything below a third rounder, they're usually not very good......and before we go there, Boling was projected higher and a top prospect at G.  Hell, look what Hayes got out of a couple of 4th rounders on the interior D line, and he was sent packing.....or got pissed off one.  After a quarter of century, it's time for fresh eyes and ideas.....especially when the old ones are part of an epic failure.  JMO.

Because it isn't all on the coach.
Paul Alexander can tell Bodine to keep his hands inside 1000 times. 
Unless Bodine himself does it, what's the point? 

Some times a guy is just bad.

You are just hell bent on being dense on the issue and not seeing a damn thing objectively.
Boling was a 4th rounder. He was a "top prospect" in a year there weren't many good guard prospects. He was the 5th guard taken and lasted until the 4th round. 

This top prospect line from you is just some halfassed reasoning you try to force on people to build your narrative. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-28-2016, 03:03 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Because it isn't all on the coach.
Paul Alexander can tell Bodine to keep his hands inside 1000 times. 
Unless Bodine himself does it, what's the point? 

Some times a guy is just bad.

You are just hell bent on being dense on the issue and not seeing a damn thing objectively.
Boling was a 4th rounder. He was a "top prospect" in a year there weren't many good guard prospects. He was the 5th guard taken and lasted until the 4th round. 

This top prospect line from you is just some halfassed reasoning you try to force on people to build your narrative. 

No it isn't......I've linked the scouting reports and his bio, numerous times.  I'm not being dense, he's a meh coach, certainly not worthy of a lifetime contract, it is what it is.  By your logic, you're being dense in your blind support of him.  Sometimes a guy is just bad, right, but if PA's this wizzrd of o line play, like you say, he should be able to make the guy better.  Bodine is almost to the point of regression.  If he was so bad he can't be taught elementary fundamentals of the position, then PA is an UBER-DUMBASS for drafting the kid.  It can't be both ways.

[RoyleRedlegs]

I've posted this before so I will again.

9ers overload the middle with blitzers. More defenders than blockers.


This leaves the outside wide open for Gio to hit it and break one. Except the WR can't make a block or even slow the S down.


An example of the OL "not doing their job" when they did but an exterior blocker (Sanu on this play) failed and it looks terrible for the entire run game.

"The OL doesn't open running lanes" sure they do, but awesome all-world FBs need to block the LB so the RB can get to them...(hint: he didn't here and got whacked in the backfield.)


Or the RB should actually hit the hole and not run into occupied space

[RoyleRedlegs]

(01-28-2016, 03:14 PM)Wyche Wrote: No it isn't......I've linked the scouting reports and his bio, numerous times.  I'm not being dense, he's a meh coach, certainly not worthy of a lifetime contract, it is what it is.  By your logic, you're being dense in your blind support of him.  Sometimes a guy is just bad, right, but if PA's this wizzrd of o line play, like you say, he should be able to make the guy better.  Bodine is almost to the point of regression.  If he was so bad he can't be taught elementary fundamentals of the position, then PA is an UBER-DUMBASS for drafting the kid.  It can't be both ways.

Again you have not actually taken in everything I've said. I've never said he's a wizard. I've never said my support is blind. Your hatred is. You don't give a shit about anything but hating him. It doesn't matter what this OL does, you will hate him. 

Your ignorance astounds me on that last part. You are too smart and too good a poster to not see the difference. But oh well. 

[Shake n Blake]

@Zerk: That first play was clearly Sanu getting blown up, but I'm not sure what Hill was supposed to do on the 2nd play. He was cutting toward the right spot, but 93 and 51 both had their men beat. If he cuts it back to his right, 92 was right there for him. I guess I don't see this huge hole is what I'm saying.

Either way, these are just 2 plays out of hundreds. I don't buy that it was all Hill because Gio struggled to get anything going at times also. Gio only averaged 3.5 ypc over the last 8 games.