Lapham on WRs

[Bengal Dude]

(03-09-2016, 09:31 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I really don't understand the love of compensatory picks either, other than half the fan base has been brainwashed to think they are something incredible.  You're basically saying "I'll pass on something that can improve my team this year for the possibility of a middle round draft pick next year".  Where is the "win now" mentality?

I heard Soloman Wilcots on NFL Network earlier.  He said that a team has to build through the draft, but you're always going to have holes either from people who have left or picks you missed on, and that is what you should look for in free agency.  Bring in those one or two difference makers who can put you over the top.  I completely agree with this sentiment.

It's not that people are in love with comp picks. We just know the Bengals won't jeopardize them. They cherish them like gold. We've got all the media guys hammering them into us, so there's no need for us to get our hopes up for players that will cost the Bengals their precious comp picks.,

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-09-2016, 09:22 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Never said that, but congrats on taking it to the far extreme opposite.

What I would rather have is worrying about winning in 2016 more than worrying about potential picks that you may or may not get in 2017 that may or may not produce an NFL caliber player. If you so happen to get one or two while making the best possible roster you can that year, great, it's a small bonus. But refraining from making the best possible roster you can for the sole reason of trying to horde them for two seasons from now, not great.

Sustainability is great and all, unless you're trading actually trying to win for it.

If you hit on a draft pick and have the guy under control for 4+ years under rookie wage and then a tag. That beats the hell out of overpaying with one of these monster contracts.

According to Hobson we were right there with the money for Jones. They had something we couldn't offer. A giant hole at their #1 WR spot. Everybody knew it was a weak class. Hence why Marvin got 40million and Sanu is supposedly getting 7mil a year.

I don't think overpaying for leftovers is "trading actually trying to win."

We need a #2 WR and we have a whole draft ahead of us plus more than the first 3.5 hours of free agency.

Sanu and MJ were 3rd and 5th round picks. They are replaceable.  

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-09-2016, 09:34 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Did he even finish the year with them in 2015?  He is hurt so much, it difficult to tell...

Honestly, until someone mentioned him on the forums awhile back, I didn't even know he was still in the NFL.

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-09-2016, 09:35 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: It's not that people are in love with comp picks. We just know the Bengals won't jeopardize them. They cherish them like gold. We've got all the media guys hammering them into us, so there's no need for us to get our hopes up for players that will cost the Bengals their precious comp picks.,

I would argue they get a lot more valuable when they become tradable next year.

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-09-2016, 09:35 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: If you hit on a draft pick and have the guy under control for 4+ years under rookie wage and then a tag. That beats the hell out of overpaying with one of these monster contracts.

According to Hobson we were right there with the money for Jones. They had something we couldn't offer. A giant hole at their #1 WR spot. Everybody knew it was a weak class. Hence why Marvin got 40million and Sanu is supposedly getting 7mil a year.

I don't think overpaying for leftovers is "trading actually trying to win."

We need a #2 WR and we have a whole draft ahead of us plus more than the first 3.5 hours of free agency.

Sanu and MJ were 3rd and 5th round picks. They are replaceable.  

You must hit on that pick though.  You have to hope the guy comes in and can produce right away.  Neither Jones, nor Sanu, did crap their rookie year.  Also, Hobson is the PR arm for Brown Incorporated... what is he going to say "they gave him a complete low ball offer that was offensive"?  Of course not... we'll probably never know what the Bengals offered him.

[*rfaulk34*]

(03-09-2016, 09:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If a contract is voided; is that the same thing as being cut? It may be a silly question, but I ask because the Bills had the option to void the last 2 years of Percy Harvvin's contract.

Voidable years have to be stipulated when the contract is originally negotiated. If the team decided to void x amount of years, you don't get paid. If you get cut with years remaining on your contract and they weren't specified as voidable years, you still get paid.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

This team loves the Draft and they love having lots of picks.

Normally i like this strategy but this is a poor Draft for fast receivers and we just lost our speed receiver.

I would not be against giving up a comp pick for Rishard Matthews but the FO is against it evidently.

So whatever.

I am just happy we brought back George and Adam. So i am happy at this moment. We also have to
remember we still have Green, Eifert, Gio, Kroft, Burkhead, Wright and Alford to all pass the ball to go
along with a Draft pick or two. We could still be just fine especially if we get out running game going.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-09-2016, 09:35 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: If you hit on a draft pick and have the guy under control for 4+ years under rookie wage and then a tag. That beats the hell out of overpaying with one of these monster contracts.

According to Hobson we were right there with the money for Jones. They had something we couldn't offer. A giant hole at their #1 WR spot. Everybody knew it was a weak class. Hence why Marvin got 40million and Sanu is supposedly getting 7mil a year.

I don't think overpaying for leftovers is "trading actually trying to win."

We need a #2 WR and we have a whole draft ahead of us plus more than the first 3.5 hours of free agency.

Sanu and MJ were 3rd and 5th round picks. They are replaceable.  

Great, but while the compensatory picks can be up to a "3rd round", it comes after the entire 3rd round, so you're basically talking 4th round and later picks in exchange for NFL-proven talent.

You keep saying monster contracts, but Travis Benjamin got 4yr/$24m. That's not a monster contract. Matthews and Randle haven't signed yet. None of those three would be leftovers, and none has been overpaid so far.

According to Hobson, $39m is actually $15m, the Bengals are the smartest people in every room, Binns was going to be Calvin Johnson, and some guy you've never heard of is the best thing since sliced bread. Any sentence you start with "according to Hobson" or "Hobson says" or anything similar, automatically loses any credibility or legitimacy in a conversation. Hobson's word on football matters is like Stalin's word on citizen's rights.

- - - - -
Sure, Sanu and MJ are replaceable, I never said they weren't. Their draft round has nothing to do with that though. It took Marvin Jones 2 years to be useful, and it took Sanu 3 years to be useful. So not only are you now requiring yourself to draft 2-3 WR, you are also hoping they all magically start producing as rookies.

That's the thing you conveniently ignore when you talk about getting them for 4 years on a rookie salary. Sure they're affordable, but there's two big problems with that.
1. Will they ever be NFL-caliber talent? Not certain.
2. How long will it take for them to become NFL-caliber talent? Also not certain.

You're not guaranteed a player to be good just because you draft them, and what if they're like Sanu and aren't really helpful until their third year? That'd be 2018. The hell are you supposed to do until then? Put Tate at #2? Microfracture Knee Surgery Wright at #3?

But hey, on the bright side, at least you'll get some sweet extra picks at the end of the 6th round in 2017, right?

[coachmcneil71]

(03-09-2016, 09:47 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This team loves the Draft and they love having lots of picks.

Normally i like this strategy but this is a poor Draft for fast receivers and we just lost our speed receiver.

I would not be against giving up a comp pick for Rishard Matthews but the FO is against it evidently.

So whatever.

I am just happy we brought back George and Adam. So i am happy at this moment. We also have to
remember we still have Green, Eifert, Gio, Kroft, Burkhead, Wright and Alford to all pass the ball to go
along with a Draft pick or two. We could still be just fine especially if we get out running game going.

I feel ya on the entire post and agree. The only thing that I disagree with is considering this a weak WR draft class.(EDIT: I see you meant not many burners at the top of the WR class. I agree but I think we can find a guy to take the top off of the D perhaps Alford) It may be a little thin but there are several guys coming out that can create space and catch the ball at it's peak. In the NFL that is a good thing. No studs but some solid guys in the first 4-5 rds.
I honestly think that Kumerow may show something.

[*bfine32*]

(03-09-2016, 09:39 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Voidable years have to be stipulated when the contract is originally negotiated. If the team decided to void x amount of years, you don't get paid. If you get cut with years remaining on your contract and they weren't specified as voidable years, you still get paid.

Thanks I was asking more so about the comp pick. Do they count as a FA or cut player if signed?

[Devils Advocate]

I'd love for them to sign a guy like Bolden or Wallace but I think The Bengals are confident enough in their drafting that they feel they have guys already on board, in their 2nd/3rd year, that are ready to step up and compete. That's how they operate. I wouldn't be surprised to see them take more than one WR in the first 3 rounds though. That's how they operate as well.

I do hope they can retain Sanu, but if they can't, then I'm not all that worried if they go into next season with what they have.

[J24]

I agree that with Leonardleap on this one we need a WR and if it costs us comp pick it costs us a comp pick. At some point this organisation has to go for it.

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-09-2016, 09:47 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Great, but while the compensatory picks can be up to a "3rd round", it comes after the entire 3rd round, so you're basically talking 4th round and later picks in exchange for NFL-proven talent.

You keep saying monster contracts, but Travis Benjamin got 4yr/$24m. That's not a monster contract. Matthews and Randle haven't signed yet. None of those three would be leftovers, and none has been overpaid so far.

According to Hobson, $39m is actually $15m, the Bengals are the smartest people in every room, Binns was going to be Calvin Johnson, and some guy you've never heard of is the best thing since sliced bread. Any sentence you start with "according to Hobson" or "Hobson says" or anything similar, automatically loses any credibility or legitimacy in a conversation. Hobson's word on football matters is like Stalin's word on citizen's rights.

- - - - -
Sure, Sanu and MJ are replaceable, I never said they weren't. Their draft round has nothing to do with that though. It took Marvin Jones 2 years to be useful, and it took Sanu 3 years to be useful. So not only are you now requiring yourself to draft 2-3 WR, you are also hoping they all magically start producing as rookies.

That's the thing you conveniently ignore when you talk about getting them for 4 years on a rookie salary. Sure they're affordable, but there's two big problems with that.
1. Will they ever be NFL-caliber talent? Not certain.
2. How long will it take for them to become NFL-caliber talent? Also not certain.

You're not guaranteed a player to be good just because you draft them, and what if they're like Sanu and aren't really helpful until their third year? That'd be 2018. The hell are you supposed to do until then? Put Tate at #2? Microfracture Knee Surgery Wright at #3?

But hey, on the bright side, at least you'll get some sweet extra picks at the end of the 6th round in 2017, right?

If it makes you feel better the Panthers made the Super Bowl with Ted Ginn as their #1 WR this year. And defense won the Super Bowl.

We for sure need a #2 WR. But we still have AJ Green and Tyler Eifert. Our pass game is still very real. And if we get our run game going with one of the better tandems in the league we should be alright.

[SunsetBengal]

I've seen a few folks mentioning Mike Wallace, no thanks.  I'll have to pass on Wallace, as there is definitely a reason that he was on 3 teams in 3 years (Steelers, Dolphins, Vikings), and most recently was cut by the Vikings, freeing them of paying him 11.4M.  There is something seriously wrong with the dude, if teams that were willing to pay big money for his services, keep dropping him like a hot rock..

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-09-2016, 08:59 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: It is a shit WR free agent class. I would rather have a 3rd round comp pick next year, that will probably be tradable, than some bummy free agent WR.

In order to get a 3rd round comp, our FA loss would need to sign a top 5 contract in terms of money with another team.  Marvin Jones will be our top FA loss in terms of the dollars he signs for.  I doubt if he is in the top 5 contracts now.

[zygrot24]

Wold like to see what boldin wants. Wallace and johnson as well couldn't hurt, and probably won't be a big contract

[SunsetBengal]

(03-09-2016, 10:15 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: In order to get a 3rd round comp, our FA loss would need to sign a top 5 contract in terms of money with another team.  Marvin Jones will be our top FA loss in terms of the dollars he signs for.  I doubt if he is in the top 5 contracts now.

With this year's FA WR class being so thin, that would definitely make it a seller's market.  So, even though it's not likely that he garner a 3rd round pick for the Bengals, perhaps a 4th or 5th isn't out of reach?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-09-2016, 09:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If a contract is voided; is that the same thing as being cut? It may be a silly question, but I ask because the Bills had the option to void the last 2 years of Percy Harvvin's contract.

Yes.  I'm 99% certain that's what happen with Laveranues Coles.  Jets voided his remaining years and he didn't count against our comp picks.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-09-2016, 10:19 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: With this year's FA WR class being so thin, that would definitely make it a seller's market.  So, even though it's not likely that he garner a 3rd round pick for the Bengals, perhaps a 4th or 5th isn't out of reach?

I think so.  Playing time and post season honors supposedly figure into the top secret formula.  But, it is mostly all about the Benjamins.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-09-2016, 10:14 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: If it makes you feel better the Panthers made the Super Bowl with Ted Ginn as their #1 WR this year. And defense won the Super Bowl.

We for sure need a #2 WR. But we still have AJ Green and Tyler Eifert. Our pass game is still very real. And if we get our run game going with one of the better tandems in the league we should be alright.

Which would be amazing if the Bengals got to play the NFC South 6 times, the AFC South 4 times, and the NFC East (with Chip and without Romo) 4 times, playing against only 4 teams with winning records.

Instead the Bengals play in 6 games against teams who went to the postseason in 2016, including both AFC Championship teams and the Super Bowl winner.

Sadly they don't get a legendary cupcake schedule.

- - - - -
Also note that once the Panthers had to play a real defense (Broncos) their offense looked like a big 'ol pile of Shittsburgh.