Help Me Understand...

[Wes Mantooth]

...Why we wouldn't pursue a veteran FA Wide Receiver. Let's think about this logically. Here's what we know:

1.) If we offered Marvin Jones a contract wouldn't it be fair to say that we thought he filled a need? I mean, even if they love a guy, if they have absolutely no use for him, they're not going to shell out that amount of coin. So, it stands to reason, that the Bengals felt as if they had a need for another veteran receiver.

2.) We obviously can afford a decent amount. Reports are Marvin Jones saw his contract at 8 mil per matched by the team. So again, logic says we can afford up to 8 million per. At least if you believe the reports that signing MMJ wouldn't have affected Iloka or Pacman.

So, help me understand it. If we feel we needed a veteran presence like Marvin Jones, if we felt it was worth it to pay handsomely for it, and if we can afford the cap hit, why exactly would we not consider someone else?

It makes no sense. Now, I understand if they don't think anyone else is worth the same amount. But you couldn't bring in a cheaper option? I mean, if you think it's a need, there's no one else that helps at all?

It just seems starnge to me. Stubborn or short-sided even. Perhaps they still sign someone, but it sure sounds like we shouldn't expect it. It's almost as if they can't keep their own players they would rather just ignore the position. "We have 8 million to invest in receiver, we need a number 2 receiver, but if it's not our guy then we'll do nothing."

Makes a lot of sense...

[jj22]

Or spent the money on another position that would have freed up the 1st and/or 2nd round for a wide receiver (or back to back wide receiver) pick. A vet younger DE to replace Gillbery, Hunt, and/or Clark. a DT, since we probably can't take a run stuffer now in the first 2 rounds (after possibly losing Simms, Thompson, and struggling to stop the run most of the season). Another (younger) vet cb/fs to replace Hall and Nelson. A lb to replace Lamur who stunk up the joint but was a "starter", even with Vinnie Rey on the roster last season.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Mike Brown dreaming of his 2017 end-of-the-6th-round compensatory picks:

[Bengalholic]

I'm glad MLJ wasn't re-signed, because if he had been, then we likely lose George or Pacman. I would rather have them.

I think there's still a chance they sign a vet WR, maybe a Lafell, Cooper or Kerley type and then draft a WR or two.

[Benton]

1. What says we aren't?
2. What says we should pursue veteran in place of someone on the roster or a draft pick?


Personally, I've said before I thought if one or both walked that we would sign a veteran and draft someone. I still think that.

[Bengalbug]

(03-14-2016, 04:35 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: ...Why we wouldn't pursue a veteran FA Wide Receiver.  Let's think about this logically.  Here's what we know:

1.) If we offered Marvin Jones a contract wouldn't it be fair to say that we thought he filled a need?  I mean, even if they love a guy, if they have absolutely no use for him, they're not going to shell out that amount of coin.  So, it stands to reason, that the Bengals felt as if they had a need for another veteran receiver.

2.) We obviously can afford a decent amount.  Reports are Marvin Jones saw his contract at 8 mil per matched by the team.  So again, logic says we can afford up to 8 million per.  At least if you believe the reports that signing MMJ wouldn't have affected Iloka or Pacman.

So, help me understand it.  If we feel we needed a veteran presence like Marvin Jones, if we felt it was worth it to pay handsomely for it, and if we can afford the cap hit, why exactly would we not consider someone else?

It makes no sense.  Now, I I understand if they don't think anyone else is worth the same amount.  But you couldn't bring in a cheaper option?  I mean, if you think it's a need, there's no one else that helps at all?

It just seems starnge to me.  Stubborn or short-sided even.  Perhaps they still sign someone, but it sure sounds like we shouldn't expect it.  It's almost as if they can't keep their own players they would rather just ignore the position.  "We have 8 million to invest in receiver, we need a number 2 receiver, but if it's not our guy then we'll do nothing."  

Makes a lot of sense...  

I am with you and share same feeling.

But not many wide receivers are flying off the shelf.  Wallace, colston, roddy white, Andre Johnson, boldin(was he cut?)

That is the list of recievers that the bengals are probably looking at.  Chances are they can wait and drive price down.  Simple law of supply and demand.  As some other recievers get signed there will be one less team that needs a wide reciever. There is a chance that we might not sign a WR until after the draft.  But that is bad logic of you think about it.  At least if you sign a vet before the draft you might be able to give off the impression you don't necessarily need a wr

[fredtoast]

This reminds me of the threads where people were complaining about the Bengals letting all of our starters walk or not re-signing Iloka.

Keep your game sharp guys. Never know when you will need it in the real world.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-14-2016, 04:44 PM)Benton Wrote: 1. What says we aren't?
2. What says we should pursue  veteran in place of someone on the roster or a draft pick?


Personally, I've said before I thought if one or both walked that we would sign a veteran and draft someone. I still think that.

1.) I had read somewhere that we shouldn't look for help at WR coming in FA.  I thought it was one of the beat guys, but can't remember.
2.) Fair enough, but if they deemed that the best approach then why did they offere Marvin Jones a contract in the first place?

Either they feel like they need a veteran Wide receiver or they don't.  Offering someone 8 mil a year, to be your 2nd receivers, SCREAMS to me "we need another weapon here."

[Bengal Dude]

(03-14-2016, 04:44 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I'm glad MLJ wasn't re-signed, because if he had been, then we likely lose George or Pacman. I would rather have them.

I think there's still a chance they sign a vet WR, maybe a Lafell, Cooper or Kerley type and then draft a WR or two.

According to the latest BBP, the thought was that they were still going to go after everyone even if they had re-signed Marvin. Definitely makes that $15 million budget look even worse.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-14-2016, 04:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This reminds me of the threads where people were complaining about the Bengals letting all of our starters walk or not re-signing Iloka.

Keep your game sharp guys.  Never know when you will need it in the real world.

Do you view every single thing as a complaint?  It sure seems like a pretty straightforward question and discussion to me.

Guy in front of Fred at the Supermarket:  "Hey, I'm just curious, can I use this coupon on two different Stoffers dinners or do they need to be the same one?"

Fred - JESUS H CHRIST, whine some more!!!!  LISTEN TO THIS GUY SCREAM AND WHINE!!!!!

Everyone in store - What the hell is that guy's problem?

[Bengalholic]

(03-14-2016, 04:51 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: According to the latest BBP, the thought was that they were still going to go after everyone even if they had re-signed Marvin. Definitely makes that $15 million budget look even worse.

And that's where these reports start conflicting. On one hand, we're told that the Bengals have a budget of 15m to spend in free agency, although Jim (I believe) did say it could be closer to 18-20m. 

Then we see reports saying they were going to sign Adam and George, even if MLJ had been re-signed. Well, that would have been around 21m right there...and that's not including Winston, Rey, Tate, etc. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-14-2016, 04:44 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I'm glad MLJ wasn't re-signed, because if he had been, then we likely lose George or Pacman. I would rather have them.

Supposedly, it wouldn't have affected their ability to get those done.  

[Bengalbug]

(03-14-2016, 04:59 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Supposedly, it wouldn't have affected their ability to get those done.  

I really would like Wallace or Randle on a 3-4 year deal.  That would help not have to go in drafting reciever in the first 3 rounds.

It is looking less likely by the hour (Wallace visiting bal and Randle visiting Rams) 

Kerley or cooper might be good but would prefer Kerley.  Mix in Kerley with a boldin or colston type player and we could rock and roll (still draft a quality talent to groom)

[fredtoast]

(03-14-2016, 04:53 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Do you view every single thing as a complaint? 

No not at all.  But when one post contains the allegations of "stubborn", "short sighted", "nonsensical". an "defies logic" then I assume it is pretty safe to call it a "complaint".

[*SHRacerX*]

I hear Mike Wallace's name kicked around several other teams. I think he would be perfect here. Exactly what this offense needs to help the underneath: a vertical threat. Before people start spouting off 40 times of WRs coming out of the combine, we KNOW he has lethal speed. He is also adept at tracking the deep ball. He has had two of the worst downfield QBs in the league since leaving putzburgh. I would offer him $4 million base per year with a modest signing bonus and incentives that could take it up to $5.5 million. Maybe he wouldn't accept that, or maybe he would like to play with a high-powered offense and a QB that can get him the ball.

[fredtoast]

(03-14-2016, 04:53 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Guy in front of Fred at the Supermarket:  "Hey, I'm just curious, can I use this coupon on two different Stoffers dinners or do they need to be the same one?"

Fred - JESUS H CHRIST, whine some more!!!!  LISTEN TO THIS GUY SCREAM AND WHINE!!!!!

Everyone in store - What the hell is that guy's problem?

Once again you completely miss the point.  Let me explain.


Wes to man in grocery store.  "Please explain to me why I don't have a coupon for Stouffers?  I demand to know why they refuse to print any coupons.  It makes no sense."


Guy in store "Maybe you don't have one because the sale paper does not come out until Friday and it is only Wednesday."


Wes.  "I don't care.  I am going to complain anyway."

[Benton]

(03-14-2016, 04:49 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: 1.) I had read somewhere that we shouldn't look for help at WR coming in FA.  I thought it was one of the beat guys, but can't remember.
2.) Fair enough, but if they deemed that the best approach then why did they offere Marvin Jones a contract in the first place?

Either they feel like they need a veteran Wide receiver or they don't.  Offering someone 8 mil a year, to be your 2nd receivers, SCREAMS to me "we need another weapon here."

1. Could be, but you never know what's going to happen. Especially with the Bengals. Things that seem obvious sometimes aren't and things that seem like they would never happen, happen. If you would've told me two weeks ago we would've signed Iloka and let Nelson walked, I'd have called you crazy.
2. If you have a guy who has performed when called on, you play him over a guy who hasn't had that chance. Or at least that's how this team normally operates. Unless we've got Julio Jones sitting on the bench behind Rex Burkhead, you're going to see the guy we know start. Marvin was the guy we knew. Doesn't mean there's no talent behind it, just that we haven't seen it.

I think with Marvin it wasn't so much having a solid #2 receiver, it was his being the backup #1. He wasn't just a one dimensional guy, he could get plugged on whatever route.

[leonardfan40]

I think, as someone else already alluded to earlier, that the bengals value their known commodities more than an outside FA. So in the minds of the front office, once Marvin walked and George re-signed we had enough for one more big deal and another medium sized deal. They preferred jones and vinny for those contracts because we know what we're gonna get from those two, even if WR was a bigger need.

Would you rather have pacman or an overpriced vet WR from another team who could very easily bust here (Coles, Bryant, etc)? Considering what Sanu got paid, I'm glad they haven't gone out and offered a similar contract to a similar player. I tend to agree that our guys are a better bet than bringing in an outsider.

That said I expect some cheap vet to come in as competition later on, some fans will think he'll be great and he won't do shit like we've seen year after year. The holes left by Jones/Sanu will be filled by draft picks and in house guys, I personally hope to see more from Burkhead next year. As long as we get one of the top WR's in the draft I think they'll be fine

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-14-2016, 05:14 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I hear Mike Wallace's name kicked around several other teams.  I think he would be perfect here.  Exactly what this offense needs to help the underneath:  a vertical threat.  Before people start spouting off 40 times of WRs coming out of the combine, we KNOW he has lethal speed.  He is also adept at tracking the deep ball.  He has had two of the worst downfield QBs in the league since leaving putzburgh.  I would offer him $4 million base per year with a modest signing bonus and incentives that could take it up to $5.5 million.  Maybe he wouldn't accept that, or maybe he would like to play with a high-powered offense and a QB that can get him the ball.

He HAD lethal speed. By all accounts I have seen, he's lost a couple steps. You can get by if one of the aspects of your game is so good it can carry the rest, but if that's all you have and then it starts deteriorating? There's too small of a difference between burning a CB and being locked down by a CB.

It's the same with the Reds Billy Hamilton. Sure he can sorta get value despite not being able to hit worth a damn because he's so fast his baserunning and defense is great. But if he loses even one step after a couple years and doesn't improve the other parts of his game to compensate? He'll be irredeemable.

Mike Wallace hasn't had at least 13 yards per catch in the last three years... after posting 19.4, 21.0, and 16.8 in his first three years. Think of him as the WR version of Chris Johnson, except Chris Johnson eventually realized he was no longer always the fastest man on the field and what he was doing wasn't working. So he worked on the other aspects of his game to make a comeback. Don't know if Wallace has the character to do that.


My vet WR choice is still Anquan Boldin. Dude can step in and be a possession #2 WR immediately, we know he can produce, and he's not going to be a problem in the locker room.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-14-2016, 05:29 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: I think, as someone else already alluded to earlier, that the bengals value their known commodities more than an outside FA. So in the minds of the front office, once Marvin walked and George re-signed we had enough for one more big deal and another medium sized deal. They preferred jones and vinny for those contracts because we know what we're gonna get from those two, even if WR was a bigger need.

Would you rather have pacman or an overpriced vet WR from another team who could very easily bust here (Coles, Bryant, etc)? Considering what Sanu got paid, I'm glad they haven't gone out and offered a similar contract to a similar player. I tend to agree that our guys are a better bet than bringing in an outsider.

That said I expect some cheap vet to come in as competition later on, some fans will think he'll be great and he won't do shit like we've seen year after year. The holes left by Jones/Sanu will be filled by draft picks and in house guys, I personally hope to see more from Burkhead next year. As long as we get one of the top WR's in the draft I think they'll be fine

I hope eventually people are gong to stop pointing at the Bengals' stupidity and pretend that's just how FA works and it was FA's fault, not the Bengals fault that it happened.

FA didn't tell the Bengals to sign a WR who already had a degenerative knee problem coming off an injury plagued 600 yard season and not have their medical staff do a thorough examination of the guy.

FA didn't tell the Bengals to sign a mediocre #2 31-year-old who was on the decline to a 4 year deal.

Not to mention, the way people keep mentioning those two deals like they put the Bengals back a generation in salary cap space with how tragic they were.
-Laveranues Coles ended up costing the Bengals $7.5m in cap space for the 1 year he played with them. The contract was very backloaded. His base salary in his first year was $1.9m, in the fourth year it was $8.4m.
-Antonio Bryant's was even less painful. On a contract that averaged $7m/yr, when they cut him they only took a cap hit of $5.8m for just the one year. His was also quite backloaded with a $1.55m base salary in the first year and a $6.75m base salary in the 4th year.

They really honestly weren't big losses. Think about it this way. The Bengals took a $7.1m cap hit for Rey Maualuga in 2015 and they're taking a $7.5m cap hit for Dre Kirkpatrick in 2016. Both of those guys suck too. That doesn't mean the Bengals shouldn't ever sign their own or pay their drafted players.



/rant