Domata Peko - Once and current great?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-12-2015, 03:11 PM)djs7685 Wrote: PFF. They don't just give random assisted tackles to a guy because he may have been in the picture 10 feet away from a tackle.

It's not like I pulled one guys stats from 1 site and 1 from another. I try to use PFF for everything to remain consistent.

Unless there is a conspiracy of a bias against Peko? That could be it. Either that or he's just not very good. One or the other. :snark:

Yeah, Peko is just not very good.

Fred conveniently just left out a Sims interception BTW.

[djs7685]

(06-12-2015, 03:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then NFL does not credit anyone with a tackle when he was 10 feet away either.  Thanks for demonstrating your knowledge of NFL stat keeping.

Why would you just automatically believe that the guys working for PFF are right and the guys working for the NFL are wrong?

I never said anyone was "right" or "wrong". I'd appreciate if you could stop with the strawman argument bullshit.

I said I use PFF because I use them for everything to remain consistent. They have more stats than anyone else, and I trust them after evaluating their stats for years now. I don't want to use some stats from PFF, some stats from NFL.com, some stats from Yahoo, etc. etc. PFF has the really in depth stuff, so I try to use them for the basic stuff too so I can stay consistent.

If you don't think the NFL goes overboard with giving assisted tackles, then LOL @ your superior "knowledge" of NFL stat keeping.

I love how witty Fred THINKS he is. I make an exaggerated point about a guy being 10 feet away getting an assist (obviously a joke), and I get personally attacked about my knowledge of the game. Trolllolol what a tool.

[3wt]

(06-11-2015, 11:51 AM)djs7685 Wrote: QB - Is both overrated and underrated by some goofballs on here, but general consensus says Andy is an average QB and I have no problem with him here in 2015. IF he stinks it up this coming season, I do think we should look into a potential replacement. Depth seems okay but lacks experience.
RB - Looks good to me, good starters, solid and young depth
WR - Looks good to me, good starters, good depth
TE - Not much playing time here, I would have liked to see them retain Gresh for this reason. The paper talent is real at TE, let's see if it translates.
OT/OG/C - Top 5 in the league as a unit, got deeper in the draft, hopefully Bodine improves from his rookie season

DE/DT - Looks like the feared 2013 unit, the band is back together. Peko still sucks though, he hasn't been good for a couple of years now.
LB - Yikes if Burfict is out, but even if he's out then we have an issue. Maualuga is mediocre, Lamur was flat out bad in 2014 (let's hope for improvement since he's young), Hawk is past his prime, Vinny Rey is mediocre at best. The good news is this D lives and dies by the line and secondary, we don't need All-Pro LBs to succeed, even though it would surely be nice to see improvement in that area.
CB - Looks good. Jones + Kirkpatrick on the outside with Leon in the slot? Sign me up, assuming Dre Kirk is ready to start full time. Dennard seems promising for the future.
S - Most underrated starters in the league, sketchy depth. Let's hope these guys continue to both play almost 100% of the snaps.

P - Awesome
K - Meh, whatever, maybe the rookie will be good? If not, Nugent is serviceable.
It's worth noting that the Bengals had/have excellent punt and kick coverage units. This goes unnoticed for a lot of fans, but ST is a big part of the game.

Overall, I like the looks of the Bengals' roster. I'd have loved to see 1 solid addition to the LB corp other than an aging Hawk, and I'd like to see a better NT on the field than Peko. I'd hardly call that "revamping the whole team", or me not liking most of the team. Lamur had a shitty 2014 and Peko flat out sucks now. Other than that, I don't really bash any/many of our players. I find that some people think that me pointing out that Andy isn't Dan Marino means that I "hate" the guy. Or when I say that Rey Maualuga isn't a 3 down LB that doesn't deserve 3 down LB money that it means I want him cut from the team.

Nice post - and I agree with most of it.  I think we made a little ground on the LB front.  I think Hawk and Dawson have the opportunity to make a difference in this position group - though the Bengals are going to have to upgrade the room over the next couple of years.


As for Peko, I think he has declined but will do better this year being able to play fewer snaps rotating with Sims and/ or Thompson.  And his forte seemed to be clogging lanes and a surprising ability to move laterally.   He was rarely the stuffer I have wanted for a while and has always seemed to allow the offense to routinely reestablish the line of scrimmage.  4-3 NT was the area that was just not addressed in the draft. 

[fredtoast]

(06-12-2015, 03:13 PM)djs7685 Wrote: So what are their "real" stats from 2013, Freddy?

Sims...54 tkls....41 solo tkls...2 sacks
Peko...52 tkls....24 solo tkls...3 sacks

[fredtoast]

(06-12-2015, 03:19 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I love how witty Fred THINKS he is. I make an exaggerated point about a guy being 10 feet away getting an assist (obviously a joke), and I get personally attacked about my knowledge of the game. Trolllolol what a tool.

Hint:  If you want to look smart then say something real.

For example please give the exact difference in the definition of "assisted tackle" from both NFL and PFF. Tell me what the difference is.

[fredtoast]

(06-12-2015, 03:19 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I said I use PFF because I use them for everything to remain consistent. 

But it makes it impossible for anyone else to make an argument about a player who does not have access to the PFF stats.

The only way to have consistency in or debates is for everyone to use the same source.

But that would shoot down your argument that the NFL has a conspiracy to make Sims look bad by padding Sims stats.

[djs7685]

(06-12-2015, 03:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sims...54 tkls....41 solo tkls...2 sacks
Peko...52 tkls....24 solo tkls...3 sacks

See why I don't like the official stats? Tackles, solo tackles, sacks. Great. That's a ton of information right there. Whether the other stuff is subjective or not (assists actually are as well), I enjoy having access to more than the basic stats of tackles, sacks, FF, and INT.

(06-12-2015, 03:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Hint:  If you want to look smart then say something real.

For example please give the exact difference in the definition of "assisted tackle" from both NFL and PFF.  Tell me what the difference is.

I did say something "real", I exaggerated a point to display my disdain for the NFL assist stat.

It's entirely subjective, I don't think you'll find an exact definition from both websites, but here's my take on it.

PFF doesn't seem to give out assists unless the guy actually is PART of the tackle. Meaning, he can't just be in the general area with a hand on the guys arm as he's being taken down. The guy can't be getting blocked out of the play and end up with an assist just because he touched the offensive player before he went down. The NFL seems to be MUCH more lenient with giving out assisted tackles. I don't know their exact definition of what should be an assist, but I don't think they even follow it exactly since it is absolutely a subjective statistic.

Agree or disagree, my post is very "real". No need to be a complete jerkoff and write off my opinion just because I'm not only using facts about something that's subjective to begin with. Believe it or not, everything in life isn't going to be 100% true or false based on factual evidence.

[djs7685]

(06-12-2015, 03:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But it makes it impossible for anyone else to make an argument about a player who does not have access to the PFF stats.

The only way to have consistency in or debates is for everyone to use the same source.

But that would shoot down your argument that the NFL has a conspiracy to make Sims look bad by padding Sims stats.

Why is it not fair? I'm sorry that you won't pay a measly $25 to have access to the stats for an entire year.

I'm not worried about anything other than MY consistency. I like PFF, I will continue to use them even though Fred the God doesn't think it's fair because everyone else doesn't have access to them. If you want info or stats, ask me. That's pretty fair and consistent. I'll give you whatever information you need.

The NFL pads every defensive players stats, I've never been a fan of how they seem to give out assisted tackles for practically no involvement in a play. I don't care what player it is, I'm not a fan of their system. Agree, disagree, I couldn't care less but I'm not going to like how they assign assists more just because the shyster lawyer says I should.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-12-2015, 03:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sims...54 tkls....41 solo tkls...2 sacks
Peko...52 tkls....24 solo tkls...3 sacks

What are the stats from 2014 if Peko outplayed Sims by such a large margin?

[fredtoast]

(06-12-2015, 04:53 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: What are the stats from 2014 if Peko outplayed Sims by such a large margin?

Peko....50 tackles....28 solo....1 sack....3 stuffs
Sims....25 tackles....17 solo....0 sacks...2 stuffs

[fredtoast]

(06-12-2015, 03:36 PM)djs7685 Wrote: The NFL pads every defensive players stats, I've never been a fan of how they seem to give out assisted tackles for practically no involvement in a play.

Give an example of an assist that Peko did not deserve.

Just one will do.

[fredtoast]

(06-12-2015, 03:36 PM)djs7685 Wrote:  If you want info or stats, ask me. That's pretty fair and consistent. I'll give you whatever information you need.

I want to see a list of all the DTs rankings from 2013.  I'll bet if you look at the entire list you will see a lot of DTs that are either underrated or overrated by PFF.

[Stormborn]

Can we all get back to the point where we don't have a single guy who can take on a double team and not get manhandled besides our starting 3T? Because that's the real issue here.

[masonbengals fan]

(06-11-2015, 11:51 AM)djs7685 Wrote: QB - Is both overrated and underrated by some goofballs on here, but general consensus says Andy is an average QB and I have no problem with him here in 2015. IF he stinks it up this coming season, I do think we should look into a potential replacement. Depth seems okay but lacks experience.
RB - Looks good to me, good starters, solid and young depth
WR - Looks good to me, good starters, good depth
TE - Not much playing time here, I would have liked to see them retain Gresh for this reason. The paper talent is real at TE, let's see if it translates.
OT/OG/C - Top 5 in the league as a unit, got deeper in the draft, hopefully Bodine improves from his rookie season

DE/DT - Looks like the feared 2013 unit, the band is back together. Peko still sucks though, he hasn't been good for a couple of years now.
LB - Yikes if Burfict is out, but even if he's out then we have an issue. Maualuga is mediocre, Lamur was flat out bad in 2014 (let's hope for improvement since he's young), Hawk is past his prime, Vinny Rey is mediocre at best. The good news is this D lives and dies by the line and secondary, we don't need All-Pro LBs to succeed, even though it would surely be nice to see improvement in that area.
CB - Looks good. Jones + Kirkpatrick on the outside with Leon in the slot? Sign me up, assuming Dre Kirk is ready to start full time. Dennard seems promising for the future.
S - Most underrated starters in the league, sketchy depth. Let's hope these guys continue to both play almost 100% of the snaps.

P - Awesome
K - Meh, whatever, maybe the rookie will be good? If not, Nugent is serviceable.
It's worth noting that the Bengals had/have excellent punt and kick coverage units. This goes unnoticed for a lot of fans, but ST is a big part of the game.

Overall, I like the looks of the Bengals' roster. I'd have loved to see 1 solid addition to the LB corp other than an aging Hawk, and I'd like to see a better NT on the field than Peko. I'd hardly call that "revamping the whole team", or me not liking most of the team. Lamur had a shitty 2014 and Peko flat out sucks now. Other than that, I don't really bash any/many of our players. I find that some people think that me pointing out that Andy isn't Dan Marino means that I "hate" the guy. Or when I say that Rey Maualuga isn't a 3 down LB that doesn't deserve 3 down LB money that it means I want him cut from the team.

You pretty much nailed my feelings on most positions. I don't think Peko sucks but he should now be paid accordingly.

[BengalsRocker]

Why do people like Sims compared to Peko...  ?

I'll tell you why.  It ain't a stat.  He's got way better push.

You can run all the numbers you want.

I just don't know how you guys can't see that.  Use your eyeballs.

Does he rush the passer and get lots of sacks?  No, not really the responsibility of a NT.

However the NT should eat blocks hold the o-line/blockers from gashing the next level and the better ones should push the pocket(which our coaches claim Peko is the best 4-3 NT by the way).

Sims is nothing great but better than Peko at the push.

I do agree rotating will do a world of good.  This should help Geno and the DEs.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(06-12-2015, 07:13 PM)Stormborn Wrote: Can we all get back to the point where we don't have a single guy who can take on a double team and not get manhandled besides our starting 3T? Because that's the real issue here.

...no

[Stormborn]

(06-12-2015, 08:49 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: ...no

Ffffffffffffuuuuuuuuu

[jfkbengals]

FYI to the Peko vs. Sims debate about stopping the run.

During Sims career as a Bengal (2008-2012), the defense gave up 100.2 YPG on the ground with Sims in the lineup, at a rate of 3.87 per carry.  For the games he was not active, we gave up 135.9 YPG at 4.49 a pop.

The interesting thing here is that Pat and Peko were normally paired together on the early downs, allowing fresh pass rushers on third down.  In my opinion Sims presence will help to lift up Peko's play.

[lostpoet2]

Cedric Peerman is a great locker room guy who is a great special teams player and serves as the team chaplain. He's also making a $745,000 salary this season. If Peko were making a similar salary and playing a reserve role, he could be useful as well.

[fredtoast]

(06-13-2015, 08:34 PM)lostpoet2 Wrote: Cedric Peerman is a great locker room guy who is a great special teams player and serves as the team chaplain. He's also making a $745,000 salary this season. If Peko were making a similar salary and playing a reserve role, he could be useful as well.

Peko was 9th in the league in tackles by a DT in 2014

Comparing a player with that type production with Peerman is a joke.