Bengals Ownership Growing Impatient with Marvin Lewis

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-06-2016, 03:35 PM)Big Boss Wrote: I'll believe it when I see it.

Pretty much how I see it.
If he wins 1 this year he will get extended for 5 more.

[OrlandoBengal]

(04-06-2016, 09:17 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I hope not. Zimmer was the guy to do that with and they didn't.

If they do fail to win a postseason game yet again in 2016, and they move on from Lewis, they need to do a 100% house cleaning. Bring in all new guys who have no history of postseason failure. 100% clean slate with all the postseason failure washed away.

I agree with this.  I would hope that if a new coach is hired, they don't handicap him by forcing him to keep anyone on the staff.  Let him pick his own people from top to bottom (yes, this includes Paul Alexander).  If he wants to keep someone, that is great, but don't tell him who his coaches are going to be.

[gobobro]

(04-06-2016, 03:23 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: This sounds more like some guys opinion rather than anything credible. Ill take this with a grain of salt.

Its one thing if its coming from Adam Shefter or Chris Mortenson, its another thing if its coming from this guy.

I'd be interested, if I ever ran into Jim at a bar, to get an unvarnished opinion of the bleacher report material. I have never given it any value, because it has never seemed like more than fan fiction... If a Cincinnati beat reporter says it, I give it full regard. They put in the hours, and know more about the team than almost anyone. If it comes from a national source, I give it a strong chance of being true, but I prefer to wait for the local guys to back it up. If it comes from a glorified blog of fans like bleacher report, I don't pay much attention unless it has named sources. The only source I tend to take as gospel is Lap, and that's because he's just too tied in with the front office, coaching staff, and players.

Watching that video, I felt like this dude (who apparently lives in Florida), had no more access to the team than I do. I felt like he had drawn conclusions from readily accessible sources, attributed those conclusions to "sources," and presented a piece that came from inside his ass.

[Bengalsrob]

This guy also plays Captain Obvious in the hotel commercials. We let a lot of good coaches slip on by, and not just Zimmer and Hugh. I liked Del Rio a lot, and he was available. This is far from "news", who beside Fred isn't impatient with Marvin Lewis?

[fredtoast]

(04-07-2016, 01:24 PM)Bengalsrob Wrote:  who beside Fred isn't impatient with Marvin Lewis?

Fred is also impatient with Marvin.

If we lay another egg like we did against the Chargers I will be ready to move on, but I don't think he deserves to get fired for the '15 season.

[fredtoast]

(04-07-2016, 01:06 PM)gobobro Wrote: I'd be interested, if I ever ran into Jim at a bar, to get an unvarnished opinion of the bleacher report material. I have never given it any value, because it has never seemed like more than fan fiction... If a Cincinnati beat reporter says it, I give it full regard. They put in the hours, and know more about the team than almost anyone. If it comes from a national source, I give it a strong chance of being true, but I prefer to wait for the local guys to back it up. If it comes from a glorified blog of fans like bleacher report, I don't pay much attention unless it has named sources. The only source I tend to take as gospel is Lap, and that's because he's just too tied in with the front office, coaching staff, and players.

Watching that video, I felt like this dude (who apparently lives in Florida), had no more access to the team than I do. I felt like he had drawn conclusions from readily accessible sources, attributed those conclusions to "sources," and presented a piece that came from inside his ass.

Did you see the link I posted where his "sources" told him that several teams were interested in Greg Hardy?

He has zero credibility.

[fredtoast]

I am puzzled about why so many of you think Hue and/or Zimmer are better head coaches than Marvin. Neither one of them have had as much success as Marvin either as a coordinator or a head coach.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-07-2016, 02:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am puzzled about why so many of you think Hue and/or Zimmer are better head coaches than Marvin.  Neither one of them have had as much success as Marvin either as a coordinator or a head coach.

Give em 15 years at one spot....

[PDub80]

(04-07-2016, 02:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am puzzled about why so many of you think Hue and/or Zimmer are better head coaches than Marvin.  Neither one of them have had as much success as Marvin either as a coordinator or a head coach.

He had unbelievable talent when he was a "good coordinator". Come on, Fred. He left the virtual hall of Fame he was coaching in Baltimore and went to the Redskins... stunk it up there for a season - with really strong talent... then came to Cincy where his defenses stunk the next 5 seasons until Zimmer came in. Marvin threw Leslie Frazier under the bus in favor of Chuck Bresnahan when the D was bad and Lewis was getting heat ad being embarrassed by it. The way Leslie Frazier was handled and the nonsense that followed really soured me on Lewis and he hasn't let my expectations down since: He's never failed to fail and always succeeded at passing blame and bristling at criticism being aimed at him.

The Ravens were so stacked on defensive talent back then that it didn't matter who the DC was. Lewis left and they were still ranked high. Nolan leaves, still high. Ryan leaves, still high. Mattison leaves, still high. Pagano leaves and they finally tail off. They had so much talent on Defense that it didn't matter who the DC was there for basically a decade after Lewis left.

FACT: Marvin Lewis coaching career is totally overrated. The only time he was good was when he had supreme talent. And even now, with one of the most talented rosters in the NFL he's managed to Munson it up (for Kingpin fans).

Gruden and Zimmer have less to work with than Mavin by far, but also managed to equal his result. That, to me, = BETTER HEAD COACH.

Fred, you seem so beaten down by Marvin's results you've kind fo become a Mike Brown parrot. You've lowered your expectations to meet Marvin's results.

[Bengal Dude]

(04-06-2016, 09:17 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I hope not. Zimmer was the guy to do that with and they didn't.

If they do fail to win a postseason game yet again in 2016, and they move on from Lewis, they need to do a 100% house cleaning. Bring in all new guys who have no history of postseason failure. 100% clean slate with all the postseason failure washed away.

(04-06-2016, 09:28 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: We'll see.  I was much more impressed with his defensive product this past season, than I was in his "rookie" year as DC.  With the changes in personnel, particularly in the secondary, we shall truly see what Pauly G. is made of, this year.

Hobson and the beat guys have said that Guenther has a lot of fans within organization. They view him as a major up and comer in terms of being a HC. That's why I think he'll get the job. The FO sees this team as a good team, so why change? Guenther would take over and probably have very few changes to the coaching staff.

[fredtoast]

(04-07-2016, 03:23 PM)PDub80 Wrote:  went to the Redskins... stunk it up there for a season - with really strong talent

The Redskins had the #5 defense in the league the year Marvin was there

(04-07-2016, 03:23 PM)PDub80 Wrote: The Ravens were so stacked on defensive talent back then that it didn't matter who the DC was. Lewis left and they were still ranked high. Nolan leaves, still high. Ryan leaves, still high. Mattison leaves, still high. Pagano leaves and they finally tail off. They had so much talent on Defense that it didn't matter who the DC was there for basically a decade after Lewis left.

Everyone that followed Marvin benefittied from the defense that MARVIN built.  That defense was ranked 24th the year before he arrived and 30th in his first year.  Marvin was the one that built it into one of the greatest in history.

(04-07-2016, 03:23 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Gruden and Zimmer have less to work with than Mavin by far, but also managed to equal his result. That, to me, = BETTER HEAD COACH.

Zimmer took over a team that was one year removed from making the playoffs and had a losing season.

Gruden took over a team that was one year removed from making the playoffs and only won 4 games.

Marvin took over a team that had not had a winning record in 13 years and had a .500 season.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-07-2016, 04:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Zimmer took over a team that was one year removed from making the playoffs and had a losing season.

Gruden took over a team that was one year removed from making the playoffs and only won 4 games.

Marvin took over a team that had not had a winning record in 13 years and had a .500 season.

Only you would try to suggest Jay Gruden stepped into a good situation.

The Redskins had made the playoffs in 1 of the previous 6 seasons, and that was mostly thanks to RGIII, who was in complete turmoil by the time Jay arrived. It was a total disaster. Jay inherited a broken locker room and a QB controversy. In contrast, Marv inherited the rights to the #1 overall pick (Carson Palmer) and a talented young roster with guys like Chad, TJ, Corey, Rudi, Willie, Braham, Levi, Justin Smith, Brian Simmons, etc etc.

Marv deserves credit for giving them direction, but the core of the roster came already built. Tbh, I think Marv gets far too much credit for building the current roster as well. AJ or Julio were the obvious picks at #4 in 2011. So no matter what we would've had a stud WR. Jay picked Andy Dalton. But I digress. I think it's highly debatable who walked into a worse situation.

As for Zimmer, the Vikings had double-digit losses in 3 of the previous 4 seasons under Leslie Frazier. They were weak at WR, had no QB (and no #1 overall pick), and their D ranked dead last in points allowed. I'd say Marv walked into a better situation than that, at least roster-wise. I do commend him for how well he's dealt with Mike though.

[magikod]

(04-06-2016, 03:35 PM)Big Boss Wrote: I'll believe it when I see it.

agreed

[HarleyDog]

Not a big Hue fan so I would have hated if he ended up HC. Zimmer was our guy. Marvin get's an enormous amount of credit for the things Zimmer did to this defense and the team in general. Zimmer is the next Belichick and probably better. He see's football from all angles and has intelligence beyond your normal wanna be greats. Minnesota will be a force to be reckoned with in a few years. So, when we watch Minnesota win back to back SB's in the upcoming years, we can continue to hang our heads in disdain, and thank Mr. Brown once again for not putting the team and the fans first and hanging onto someone just because he likes the guy.

[xxlt]

(04-06-2016, 02:35 PM)milksheikh Wrote: We could see a HC change as early as 2027..

:o

Fixed it for you.

[Devils Advocate]

(04-07-2016, 05:12 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Only you would try to suggest Jay Gruden stepped into a good situation.

The Redskins had made the playoffs in 1 of the previous 6 seasons, and that was mostly thanks to RGIII, who was in complete turmoil by the time Jay arrived. It was a total disaster. Jay inherited a broken locker room and a QB controversy. In contrast, Marv inherited the rights to the #1 overall pick (Carson Palmer) and a talented young roster with guys like Chad, TJ, Corey, Rudi, Willie, Braham, Levi, Justin Smith, Brian Simmons, etc etc.

Marv deserves credit for giving them direction, but the core of the roster came already built. Tbh, I think Marv gets far too much credit for building the current roster as well. AJ or Julio were the obvious picks at #4 in 2011. So no matter what we would've had a stud WR. Jay picked Andy Dalton. But I digress. I think it's highly debatable who walked into a worse situation.

As for Zimmer, the Vikings had double-digit losses in 3 of the previous 4 seasons under Leslie Frazier. They were weak at WR, had no QB (and no #1 overall pick), and their D ranked dead last in points allowed. I'd say Marv walked into a better situation than that, at least roster-wise. I do commend him for how well he's dealt with Mike though.

I disagree that Jay walked into a QB controversy. He was hand picked to develop RG, not Kirk Cousins. Only he Quickly found out, as his predecessor did, that RG was not multidimensional.  Either way, that franchise was certainly a mess as the rumor goes, in large part because of RG. Jay's done a fine job for them but that division is whack. I honestly don't believe he'll last more than another coupla years there. If it weren't for Cousins being competent, I'd say Jay would already be in danger. 

Mike Zimmer is a fine coach. Not surprised he's had success. 

Marvin's done some nice things here and although some draft choices were more obvious than others, he gets some credit for finding some decent players even some all pros. 

This organization was in as much dysfunction as any have ever been when Marvin took over. We haven't had to wear bags over our head in many years. Even when our all world QB 'retired'. You can say Jay chose Andy but that decision at some point had to be approved by Marvin, at least initially. Because I guarantee that without his approval, no way Mike Brown doesn't go after that other QB he wanted. 

Maybe no other coach would get as many chances to rebuild a team like Marvin has, but he's answered the call each time. By my estimation, he's (re)built this team 3 times. 

In case it hasn't been posted, someone in the FO said that the OP was bunk. 

[jj22]

Both Zimmer and Gruden had their teams far more prepared, competent, and poised in their playoff losses then Marvin EVER has. It's a couple years too late for Mike Brown. He's made the same mistake his father made (not going with Walsh). Funny how that tends to happen. Hue not sure of because it's Cleveland, but if it wasn't Cleveland, my money would be on any of the three of them taking less than 13 years to win a playoff game.

[OrlandoBengal]

(04-08-2016, 10:37 AM)Devils Advocate Wrote: I disagree that Jay walked into a QB controversy. He was hand picked to develop RG, not Kirk Cousins. Only he Quickly found out, as his predecessor did, that RG was not multidimensional.  Either way, that franchise was certainly a mess as the rumor goes, in large part because of RG. Jay's done a fine job for them but that division is whack. I honestly don't believe he'll last more than another coupla years there. If it weren't for Cousins being competent, I'd say Jay would already be in danger. 

How is it not a quarterback controversy when you have to bench your number two overall pick, the guy who was chosen to be the face of the franchise?  It took real balls to stand up to Daniel Snyder and not play RGIII.  Also, any coach without a competent quarterback is in danger... it is a quarterback driven league.  If you don't have one, you are desperately trying to find one.

[Wes Mantooth]

(04-07-2016, 02:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Fred is also impatient with Marvin.

Oh great, he's referring to himself in the third person now. 

[*Nately120*]

(04-07-2016, 03:12 PM)Wyche Wrote: Give em 15 years at one spot....

I don't think it's even remotely possible to compare Marvin to anyone when you take into account that he's had 13 years in one place and a pretty desirable amount of QB stability, to boot. 2015 was an interesting year when you looked at the QB rankings and realized Marvin Lewis had to be the only coach who had 2 of the Top 3 or so of 2015's QBs for over a decade with absolutely nothing to show for it.

(04-07-2016, 05:12 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote:  Jay picked Andy Dalton.

Excellent point that can never be forgotten.  Our "GM" with a lifetime of NFL experience wanted Malllllettt or Krapernick to lead us out of the ditch and some rookie OC arena league guy had to talk him and Marvin "totally a GM" Lewis into taking Dalton and saving this franchise.  Even if you don't think Jay Gruden was much of an OC or  HC in the NFL you can't deny he made one of the best pseudo-GM moves this franchise ever saw.  I stand by that.

(04-08-2016, 10:48 AM)jj22 Wrote: Both Zimmer and Gruden had their teams far more prepared, competent, and poised in their playoff losses then Marvin EVER has. It's a couple years too late for Mike Brown. He's made the same mistake his father made (not going with Walsh). Funny how that tends to happen. Hue not sure of because it's Cleveland, but if it wasn't Cleveland, my money would be on any of the three of them taking less than 13 years to win a playoff game.

I really have to wonder what the Marvin supporters would say about the Vikings, 'DC Squad, and the Browns if it is 2029 or so and they all still have the same HC and 0 playoff wins to show for it.