Marvin Lewis and Bengals agree on contract extension

[Bengalholic]

(04-14-2016, 03:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have no problem with you comparing Marvin to the other top 5 teams in the league.

So go back and tell me how many times oneof the top 6 teams in the league has fired their coach.  It is very very rare.

I agree that top 5 teams replacing their coaches during winning stretches isn't the norm. But, that's the problem. What the Bengals have done doesn't fall into the 'norm' category either. There has never been another period in NFL history where one of the top NFL's top 5 teams (or any team for that matter) lost 5 consecutive playoffs games. It isn't just a rare happening, it had literally never happened before the Bengals did it. That one fact sets it apart and makes it truly unique (in terms of postseason ineptness) when it comes to other examples in NFL history. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-14-2016, 01:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The hundreds of other times that coaches have been fired and it did not help.

I can give examples of teams winning a Super Bowl with a sub par QB but I don't see every other team in the league trying to get by with a scrub QB.

How many hundreds of times has a team fired a coach after going to the Super Bowl?


QBs aren't the discussion....

[fredtoast]

(04-14-2016, 03:48 PM)Wyche Wrote: QBs aren't the discussion....

It is a valid analogy.  

You can't use an exception to the norm to prove a point.

How many coaches have been fired after making it to the Super Bowl?

[fredtoast]

(04-14-2016, 03:28 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Their claim is that Dungy took them, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, as far as he could.  That neither of them, and I will trust their word as they are both Hall of Famers who actually played on the team, believe that team would have won a Super Bowl with Dungy as the head coach.  Not trying to be rude, but this is not that difficult to understand.

They were wrong.  everything proves that Dungy was a better head coach and capable of winning a Super Bowl.

Not trying to be rude, but it is not that difficult to understand.

I have seen Sapp on TV a lot and he was constantly saying stupid things that were 100% wrong.

[OrlandoBengal]

(04-14-2016, 04:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They were wrong.  everything proves that Dungy was a better head coach and capable of winning a Super Bowl.

Not trying to be rude, but it is not that difficult to understand.

I have seen Sapp on TV a lot and he was constantly saying stupid things that were 100% wrong.

You don't think that Dungy was helped by going to Indianapolis with Manning in his prime, as well as two Hall of Fame receivers?  Fact... Dungy did not win a Super Bowl in Tampa. You can speculate that he would have won 10 had he stayed, but there is no proof that is the case.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-14-2016, 04:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is a valid analogy.  

You can't use an exception to the norm to prove a point.

How many coaches have been fired after making it to the Super Bowl?

One for sure.....you could also lump Jimmy Johnson in there I guess, more like run out of town, Barry Switzer (wasn't immediately after), without looking it up, I don't know for sure.  There have been some fired after playoff runs, etc.  I get not firing the man after last season (although some organizations probably would have), but why keep extending him?  That just doesn't make sense.

[wolfkaosaun]

You know what's ironic?

Dungy took over a Jim Mora coached team. Mora drafted Peyton Manning, Edgerrin James, and Reggie Wayne. He also turned that team around quickly and got them to the playoffs twice in his four years coaching there. And yet he still didn't win any playoff games. Going 0-6.

One can say it's because Mora had a losing record his final season, but Dungy got them to the playoffs the next year and got them to the conference championship the following year.

Marvin is a lot closer to Mora than he is to Dungy. Go look at the history of the Saints. He did wonders for that organization.

[fredtoast]

(04-14-2016, 05:00 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: You can speculate that he would have won 10 had he stayed, but there is no proof that is the case.

But the fact that Dungy did not win a Super Bowl in Tampa bay does not mean he would never win a Super Bowl.

Just like you can speculate that Marvin will never win a playoff game, but there is nor proof that is the case.

[fredtoast]

(04-14-2016, 05:00 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: You don't think that Dungy was helped by going to Indianapolis with Manning in his prime, as well as two Hall of Fame receivers?

Sure he was.  But compare Dungy at Tampa Bay to Gruden at Tampa Bay.

Dungy...... .563 win%.....made playoffs 4 of 6 years
Gruden..... .509 win%.....made playoffs 3 of 7 years

[XenoMorph]

(04-14-2016, 02:18 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Fred will jump all over this, but I bring up Tampa Bay.  Both Sapp and Brooks have gone on record as saying that Dungy had taken the team as far as he could, and neither believe they would have won a Super Bowl.  Of course Dungy could at least advance in the playoffs, which only makes Marvin's record look even worse...

maybe they should have played harder for their coach.

Marvin hasnt played a single snap and last i check the football players on the field were the ones failing to win games.

[fredtoast]

(04-14-2016, 05:04 PM)Wyche Wrote:   I get not firing the man after last season (although some organizations probably would have), but why keep extending him?  That just doesn't make sense.

And we agree on this

(04-10-2016, 10:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: BTW I am opposed to the extension.

I think people here may have had a valid argument for Marvin to get fired after the '10 season.  And if we lay another egg like we did in the '13 playoffs I will be in favor of getting a new coach.  But while I don't think Marvin deserves to get fired for what happened in '15 I don't think he earned an extension either.

[wolfkaosaun]

(04-14-2016, 05:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But the fact that Dungy did not win a Super Bowl in Tampa bay does not mean he would never win a Super Bowl.

Just like you can speculate that Marvin will never win a playoff game, but there is nor proof that is the case.

But it only took Dungy 2 years to win a playoff game and 4 years to make it to a conference championship.

Took him 11 years to finally win a Super Bowl.

Marvin is now on year 14 with 0 playoff wins.

Very big difference.

[fredtoast]

(04-14-2016, 06:18 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: But it only took Dungy 2 years to win a playoff game and 4 years to make it to a conference championship.

Took him 11 years to finally win a Super Bowl.

Marvin is now on year 14 with 0 playoff wins.

Very big difference.

Still just speculation.  I say we will win a playoff game this year.  You guarantee we won't.

We just have to wait and see who is right.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-14-2016, 05:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But the fact that Dungy did not win a Super Bowl in Tampa bay does not mean he would never win a Super Bowl.

Just like you can speculate that Marvin will never win a playoff game, but there is nor proof that is the case.

If Marvin coached the Bengals to 10 more playoff losses and got fired, there would be no proof that he wouldn't have won on his 18th try.

When do you draw the line? 

(04-14-2016, 06:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sure he was.  But compare Dungy at Tampa Bay to Gruden at Tampa Bay.

Dungy...... .563 win%.....made playoffs 4 of 6 years
Gruden..... .509 win%.....made playoffs 3 of 7 years

Simple answer for that: The core of players (drafted by Sam Wyche) that helped the Bucs have all that success got old.

Neither Gruden nor Dungy can take credit for those players, but it was Gruden who helped get them over the hump.

[fredtoast]

(04-14-2016, 06:47 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Simple answer for that: The core of players (drafted by Sam Wyche) that helped the Bucs have all that success got old.

All of them got old immediately?

After Gruden won the Super Bowl his first year he never won another postseason game in 6 more years with the Bucs.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-14-2016, 06:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: All of them got old immediately?

After Gruden won the Super Bowl his first year he never won another postseason game in 6 more years with the Bucs.

By 2003 (the year after the SB):

Brad Johnson was 35
Mike Alstott was 30
Keyshawn Johnson was 31
Ken Dilger was 32
Warren Sapp was 31
Derrick Brooks was 30
John Lynch was 32
Keenan McCardell was 33

So much of the core that made up that SB team was at the end of their primes when Gruden took over. It was unrealistic to expect him to keep contending for Super Bowls when so many of them were 30+ when he got there. That's probably why the Bucs made such a desperate move in trading for Gruden in the first place. Heck, most of those players were gone 1-2 years after winning the title.

[wolfkaosaun]

(04-14-2016, 06:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Still just speculation.  I say we will win a playoff game this year.  You guarantee we won't.

We just have to wait and see who is right.

I'm sorry, where did I say anything about 2016? I have stated that Marvin has been underwhelming when compared to coaches that have coached as long as he did.

Nothing I've stated is a lie. I'm not comparing him to many coaches in the NFL now since you wanted to skip that.

Compared to coaches that have coached as many games as he has, 23rd outta 31 in winning percentage. One of two coaches who never made it to a conference championship. Even some coached with a lower winning percentage has Super Bowl rings.

I'm stating that Marvin is not really that great of a head coach when compared to his peers. He's in the bottom half in almost every category.

And we've been waiting to see who is right. We wait year after year after year. And yet he's still here and we still haven't won a playoff game.

Let me put this into perspective for you. I am 24 years old and have never witnessed a Bengals win a playoff game.

So yes. I'm unhappy with Marvin and tired of these "wait and see" approaches we have. No reason to extend a coach who continues to falter in the playoffs.

[OrlandoBengal]

(04-14-2016, 06:14 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: maybe they should have played harder for their coach.

Marvin hasnt played a single snap and last i check the football players on the field were the ones failing to win games.

This is beyond ludicrous.  Maybe two Hall of Fame players should have tried harder?  Yeah, because you make it to the Hall of Fame by half assing it...

You really don't think the coaching, the schemes, and the in game adjustments play greatly into the outcome?  By that logic, Mike Brown should save a bundle of money every year and have you coach the team.

(04-14-2016, 06:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Still just speculation.  I say we will win a playoff game this year.  You guarantee we won't.

We just have to wait and see who is right.

No one that I have seen is "guaranteeing" that the team won't win a playoff game this year.  Many people are pointing out that Marvin's history would say the probability of playoff success (some of us would actually like to see the team win more than one playoff game, but that's a whole other conversation) is slim, but I don't see people guaranteeing failure.  I have seen you say "we will win a playoff game this year", which is pretty close to a guarantee, but that is all.