Classless Lawyers

[Rotobeast]

(05-05-2016, 03:49 PM)michaelsean Wrote: And Brad when you say the gates should have been locked (although I don't see how that's a law), are you saying you and your friends should have been protected from your own stupidity? The times you comment in P&R, you seem to be pretty conservative. Is that how a conservative would view things?

Normally there is a sign at the gates stating that the cemetery closes at dusk.
That is why I asked Brad the time.
I'm going to guess that the jury considered the cemetery closed and anyone there after dusk to be trespassing.

[BFritz21]

(05-05-2016, 03:16 PM)Penn Wrote: That door swings both ways.  If the grounds were properly maintained, plus while on the property the owners never saw anything amiss in behavior and no one ever reported the after hours activities at the caretakers residence, well, then it is reasonable for the ownership to not know.  How exactly do you feel it is reasonably expected that the owners would know even if all appearances indicated nothing was going on?  The burden to demonstrate it is reasonable is on the plaintiff.  Present that case.

As you saw in my first post in this thread, I am definitely not among those with hostility towards Brad.  In fact, even though this whole situation disrespects the final resting place of over a dozen of my relatives, neither this topic nor any past debates Brad has had on this forum dissuade me from having sympathy for him.  I just think legally and morally he is wrong here.

It doesn't matter if they knew or not.

The caretaker is the main employee of the cemetery and actually even more involved than all of the people higher up than him.  By giving him the house and the power to maintain it all, they are responsible for his actions.

(05-05-2016, 03:49 PM)michaelsean Wrote: And Brad when you say the gates should have been locked (although I don't see how that's a law), are you saying you and your friends should have been protected from your own stupidity?  The times you comment in P&R, you seem to be pretty conservative.  Is that how a conservative would view things?

We were 15.

The gates were supposed to be locked and the grounds protected.  Instead, 15-year-olds (and younger because it had been happening for a while) were invited by the owner's son to drink alcohol and party back there to do whatever we wanted.  The caretaker's wife had even talked to my mom a few weeks earlier and told them that we were welcome back there when they had parties because we weren't bothering anyone (my mom, of course, didn't know they let us drink).

(05-05-2016, 03:53 PM)Wyche Wrote: Bonfires and concerts in a cemetery?  WTF?

Their house is back there, so they just let us go crazy in the cemetery.

[Au165]

(05-05-2016, 04:55 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: It doesn't matter if they knew or not.

The caretaker is the main employee of the cemetery and actually even more involved than all of the people higher up than him.  By giving him the house and the power to maintain it all, they are responsible for his actions.
We were 15.

The gates were supposed to be locked and the grounds protected.  Instead, 15-year-olds (and younger because it had been happening for a while) were invited by the owner's son to drink alcohol and party back there to do whatever we wanted.  The caretaker's wife had even talked to my mom a few weeks earlier and told them that we were welcome back there when they had parties because we weren't bothering anyone (my mom, of course, didn't know they let us drink).

Their house is back there, so they just let us go crazy in the cemetery.

So you still take 0 responsibility in this huh? You sure do speak in absolutes for someone who a jury of his peers didn't see it the same way. I think you over estimate what people's responsibility are when it comes to the law.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-05-2016, 01:47 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Highlands Cemetery.

On Dixie Highway, across from that Kroger in Fort Mitchell that's right behind Beechwood.  

Yes.  

I didn't put them on, the caretaker's son did, which the caretaker allowed and even provided us with supplies, including alcohol.

Oh wow...I actually have a little story about that place. Before I joined the Army in 2005, I used to work temp jobs through Labor Ready. One day they sent us out to that cemetery to supposedly do some concrete work. But it turned out we were actually supposed to help demolish a mausoleum and the folks at Labor Ready sent us there with the wrong boots and equipment. 

Anyways, I wound up stepping backwards and I stepped right on a carpenter nail that went plumb through my boot into my foot. Then I took another step sideways and stepped onto another nail that went into my other foot. Despite the pain I wound up finishing my shift and even volunteered to work 2nd shift somewhere else after signing a waiver.

About halfway through that shift I had to go home as I couldn't walk anymore. I wound up having to see a foot specialist and my ship date for basic training had to be moved back a month. I didn't really mind that too much though, as it allowed me to watch the Bengals first playoff game in 14 years. 

[*michaelsean*]

Quote:The gates were supposed to be locked and the grounds protected.

You keep saying that. Says who?

[fredtoast]

Brad, what type of evidence did the jury hear about this guy allowing you all to party and drink back there?

Even if this guy was not legally responsible for the accident it seems like he should have been charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

[Vas Deferens]

(05-05-2016, 05:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Oh wow...I actually have a little story about that place. Before I joined the Army in 2005, I used to work temp jobs through Labor Ready. One day they sent us out to that cemetery to supposedly do some concrete work. But it turned out we were actually supposed to help demolish a mausoleum and the folks at Labor Ready sent us there with the wrong boots and equipment. 

Anyways, I wound up stepping backwards and I stepped right on a carpenter nail that went plumb through my boot into my foot. Then I took another step sideways and stepped onto another nail that went into my other foot. Despite the pain I wound up finishing my shift and even volunteered to work 2nd shift somewhere else after signing a waiver.

About halfway through that shift I had to go home as I couldn't walk anymore. I wound up having to see a foot specialist and my ship date for basic training had to be moved back a month. I didn't really mind that too much though, as it allowed me to watch the Bengals first playoff game in 14 years. 

DaaaaUM!  I stepped on a nail toed into the end of a beam while fishing around for lumber in a construction roll off last year. ***** sucked...  No idea how you finished that shift after blasting through on both feet. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-05-2016, 04:55 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: It doesn't matter if they knew or not.

How can they be responsible if they didn't know?  Especially if the care taker they hired wasn't securing the grounds as expected and was breaking the law by providing alcohol to minors?

With the information you have provided thus far, I'm beginning to understand why the juror didn't decide in your favor.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-05-2016, 05:56 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: DaaaaUM!  I stepped on a nail toed into the end of a beam while fishing around for lumber in a construction roll off last year. ***** sucked...  No idea how you finished that shift after blasting through on both feet. 

I was motivated and really needed the money. 

Honestly though, the pain was intense a few hours after it happened. At first I just thought I could tough it out, but yeah...no.

I could barely walk by the time I went to the hospital.

[Tiger Teeth]

Who in the hell parties in a cemetery? How distasteful.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-05-2016, 07:12 PM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: Who in the hell parties in a cemetery?  How distasteful.  

I agree, but weren't they teenagers? We all do dumb stuff as teens.

[Tiger Teeth]

(05-05-2016, 07:45 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I agree, but weren't they teenagers? We all do dumb stuff as teens.

I was about as wild as any teenager could be, but I wouldn't have even considered this.  Maybe I'm being too harsh, but I still can't see doing what was going on there.

[Bengalzona]

I knew a couple of girls in junior high who got drunk and went into a small cemetery. They were caught knocking over some headstones and graffiti-ing some others. They were social pariahs for a long time after that. But they both turned out pretty hot in high school and were able to translate their hotness into a general forgiveness from the male and lesbian populations at school. I never personally imbibed, but my buddy from the track team told me that the one had a shaved cooz, which was a rare thing back in those days!

In college at U.D., some of us students used to take midnight walks at Woodland Cemetery next door because it was creepy and spooky at night. You'd take your girl there and they would cling to you (especially while you were walking down 'crypt row'.... there was one empty crypt where they stored tools and they often left the door open!). But we didn't party there. We had "The Ghetto" for that at U.D. And the students generally didn't cause problems or get rowdy. In fact, they generally appreciated the quiet and solitude of the cemetery compared to the craziness of "The Ghetto".

Funny related story: This one time a group of about eight of us went there at night. My friend and I broke off from the group and decided to sneak up on the rest and scare them. But while we were hiding, we heard these strange noises on the top of Woodland Hill. The hill has an awesome view of the city and some park benches. So we walked up to check it out. On one of the benches, I saw what I thought was two bald guys kissing. My buddy corrected me. It wasn't two bald guys kissing: it was a bare butt going up and down. Some dude and his girl were getting it on in the middle of the cemetery! We threw a couple of pebbles to get their attention, then we popped up from behind a headstone... both of us in white shirts! Scared the crap out of them! They flew right by the rest of our friends at the base of the hill!

[fredtoast]

I think most high school and college kids have had the experience of going to a cemetery with friends to get spooked or get high at night. But i have never heard of large parties, bonfires, or concerts.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-05-2016, 08:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think most high school and college kids have had the experience of going to a cemetery with friends to get spooked or get high at night.  But i have never heard of large parties, bonfires, or concerts.

Yeah I think most of us have done something along those lines. I used to get together with friends and take our GFs to the cemetery because it offered privacy from parents. Not that anything sexual happened, but it was still disrespectful to just hang around for privacy. 

It's pretty wild to imagine parties happening at a cemetery, but he did say it was a private residence back there, so it's not like they were chugging Nati Lites in front of graves...I hope. 

[Bengalzona]

(05-05-2016, 08:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think most high school and college kids have had the experience of going to a cemetery with friends to get spooked or get high at night.  But i have never heard of large parties, bonfires, or concerts.

No. I haven't heard of large parties either. But somehow, I'm not too surprised by it. I didn't have a lot of reverence when I was young. If I was 15 and "the gang" was having a party (with booze!) at the local cemetery, I probably wouldn't have thought twice about going. Maybe when I was a little older (17 or 18), I would have thought: "Can't be much of a party if it is at a cemetery. Probably just a bunch of young kids there."

The concert and bonfire parts are a bit more surprising to me. We were a little more discreet with our underage drinking. But from my experience, underage drinking is almost a requirement in Kentucky (especially around E-town).

[xxlt]

(05-05-2016, 01:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Brad, I spent 90% of my life around Covington and NKY in general. From some of the descriptions, I'm guessing this was Mother of God Cemetery in Latonia?

If not where did the accident happen? Just curious.

I bet five cents it was not that cemetery. I bet it was in Ft Mitchell (the one that is adjacent to I-75 - I think it is called Highland) or another cemetery if there is one closer to CCH but I can't recall one. I can't wait to scroll down and see if you owe me a nickel!

[xxlt]

(05-05-2016, 03:16 PM)Penn Wrote: That door swings both ways.  If the grounds were properly maintained, plus while on the property the owners never saw anything amiss in behavior and no one ever reported the after hours activities at the caretakers residence, well, then it is reasonable for the ownership to not know.  How exactly do you feel it is reasonably expected that the owners would know even if all appearances indicated nothing was going on?  The burden to demonstrate it is reasonable is on the plaintiff.  Present that case.

As you saw in my first post in this thread, I am definitely not among those with hostility towards Brad.  In fact, even though this whole situation disrespects the final resting place of over a dozen of my relatives, neither this topic nor any past debates Brad has had on this forum dissuade me from having sympathy for him.  I just think legally and morally he is wrong here.

Legally, the door swings one way, according to what I was taught by a lawyer in a business law class (designed to protect businesses). What she taught was from a business law book, written by lawyers, and again citing case law. Now I am no lawyer, but I know the "reasonable person" standard and I know businesses are responsible for the conduct of their people. I will leave it there.

I get you aren't holding a voodoo doll of Brad, and I am not weighing in morally, but legally those who think he is out in left field are misinformed. Those who keep saying, "then why did the jury or the judge...," fail to understand that justice is routinely not served in our court system. The system - GASP - does not always get it right. This doesn't mean Brad is a sore loser. It means like every plaintiff wronged, he got a raw deal. If he appealed, the decision may be reversed - this happens all the time. This is why we have appeals courts and a Supreme Court. C'mon guys, I know they don't teach civics any more but geez...

[xxlt]

(05-05-2016, 05:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Oh wow...I actually have a little story about that place. Before I joined the Army in 2005, I used to work temp jobs through Labor Ready. One day they sent us out to that cemetery to supposedly do some concrete work. But it turned out we were actually supposed to help demolish a mausoleum and the folks at Labor Ready sent us there with the wrong boots and equipment. 

Anyways, I wound up stepping backwards and I stepped right on a carpenter nail that went plumb through my boot into my foot. Then I took another step sideways and stepped onto another nail that went into my other foot. Despite the pain I wound up finishing my shift and even volunteered to work 2nd shift somewhere else after signing a waiver.

About halfway through that shift I had to go home as I couldn't walk anymore. I wound up having to see a foot specialist and my ship date for basic training had to be moved back a month. I didn't really mind that too much though, as it allowed me to watch the Bengals first playoff game in 14 years. 

I love the happy ending of that story. And I love that you owe me a nickel! How could you mistake MOG cemetery for Highlands? Next you will be mixing up Herb and Thelma's and The Anchor Grill!
Cheers brother! You can pay the nickel in one payment or five easy installments of one cent each.

[xxlt]

(05-05-2016, 05:47 PM)michaelsean Wrote: You keep saying that.  Says who?

Common sense, the procedure of literally every cemetery I have ever seen (I lived by one for years and never saw the gates there or at any other unlocked from dusk to well after dawn), and almost certainly the law.

There are laws against abusing a corpse. Did you know that? It is true. There are laws to protect people from that sort of trauma - the trauma of learning your loved ones corpse was defiled.

There are, I imagine, laws that likewise protect the interred remains of people. One poster has posted repeatedly about how traumatic the accident was to people who had relatives buried there. If you think there are not laws that govern the operation of a cemetery (but there are laws that govern restaurants, gas stations, barber shops, factories, real estate offices, etc.) maybe you are right, but I would say it is on you to demonstrate this is the one 100% unregulated business in America and cemeteries have no legal obligation to secure and maintain the grounds where they inter human remains. Pretty sure the routine practice of every cemetery is rooted in a legally binding contractual agreement to provide a secure final resting place. Part of that security is preventing grave robbing and desecration, hence the fences around ALL commercial cemeteries and the LOCKED gates every night.







Or did you think they put up the fences because people are just dying to get in there? (Heard that joke as a kid.)