Sustainability vs. Win Now

[fredtoast]

(04-29-2016, 05:47 PM)Benton Wrote: we're an injury away from Pat Sims being a starter on the line or Tate being our third receiving option.

The Bengals have actually used a ot of 2nd -3rd round picks on D-line, but they have not played up to their potential.

We really, really need Hardison to pan out.  I never judge a player by just hid first year because a lot of players improve dramatically in their second season.  But when they have been around 2 or 3 years they are not going to suddenly improve a lot.  So we are pretty thin along the D-line behind our starters.

[Benton]

(04-29-2016, 06:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Nothing against Alford, but he just has not shown anything yet.  I hope he develops into a player because he has crazy speed, but I still want us to draft at least 2 WRs.
 

So far, he hasn't had to. I'd have been surprised if he started ahead of Jones, who is talented, and Sanu, who Hue liked to use for his versatility. I'm hoping we don't take a receiver before 4 and that means the coaches are pretty happy with Alford progressing and maybe contributing next year.

[TKUHL]

I know you have to have a trade partner but i would have been happy trading back out of the first.

[*Go Cards*]

Am fine with this year's selection after WR pool was decemated and stud C being gone.

Still can not get over drafting 2 OT last year though. That was the only head scratching draft to me in recent years.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-29-2016, 05:42 PM)BengalChris Wrote: It's not an either or question. You can be sustainable and win now!

You only need to look at New England, Green Bay, 49ers of the 80s and 90s, even the dreaded Steelers for proof that you can build a team and keep it winning over time.

I see your point, but you really can't include teams, or "dynasties" previous to the current state of the cap and free agent era. 

[GreenCornBengal]

Despite losing in the playoffs, the last 5 seasons have been by far the most exciting of my lifetime (born 1991). Whatever we are doing, I'm fine with it. We need to get over the hump, sure, but hey, we have a shot every year to do so.

[SunsetBengal]

Honestly, the "one player away" philosophy is only good in free agency. In FA, you know exactly what you are getting, a proven player. In the draft, even the most highly touted prospects are still crapshoots. Over the years, I have played out the scenarios in my head, what if the Bengals would have traded up and taken so-and-so. But, you can't count on that. What if the Bengals traded up in the 1st, most likely giving up two later picks, only to select a player that got injured in camp? Or worse, turned out to be a bust in general?

I'm fine with the "safe" pick of Jackson. He was the best player on the board, at the time. Although, I really wanted the team to address a need of higher perception, by me at least.

[BengalChris]

(04-29-2016, 07:45 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I see your point, but you really can't include teams, or "dynasties" previous to the current state of the cap and free agent era. 

Oh, okay, then just include New England, Packers, Squeelers to some degree in that they do make the playoffs and have won two SBs with current QB.

Teams don't need to sacrifice the future to put a top team on the field. That's what teams like Cleveland and Jax and Phili think and they suck every year.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-29-2016, 08:42 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Oh, okay, then just include New England, Packers, Squeelers to some degree in that they do make the playoffs and have won two SBs with current QB.

Teams don't need to sacrifice the future to put a top team on the field. That's what teams like Cleveland and Jax and Phili think and they suck every year.

Point is, even the teams you mention, have sunken into the realm of "still relevant", as opposed to Champion.  When the Bengals organization feels like they are "one player" away from greatness, you better believe that they will make that move.

[BengalChris]

(04-29-2016, 08:55 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Point is, even the teams you mention, have sunken into the realm of "still relevant", as opposed to Champion.  When the Bengals organization feels like they are "one player" away from greatness, you better believe that they will make that move.

Well, if you are one player away, then you gotta take that player. No question about that.

But I don't quite understand how that makes you unsustainable.

If trading up for a Josh Doctson would have meant a SB then the Jackson pick sucks so bad. But I'm not convinced it's one player who's going to make the difference for the Bengals. The coaches have to change what they are doing on the offensive side of the ball come playoff time.

[hitchopottimus]

If you need a draft pick to make an immediate impact, then you aren't really ready to compete for a championship, anyway.

['E']

(04-29-2016, 09:12 PM)hitchopottimus Wrote: If you need a draft pick to make an immediate impact, then you aren't really ready to compete for a championship, anyway.

**BOOM**

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-29-2016, 09:12 PM)hitchopottimus Wrote: If you need a draft pick to make an immediate impact, then you aren't really ready to compete for a championship, anyway.

I feel like that's just outright wrong.

A lot of SB winners have rookies making large impacts. Not all, but a lot.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-29-2016, 09:06 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Well, if you are one player away, then you gotta take that player. No question about that.

But I don't quite understand how that makes you unsustainable.

If trading up for a Josh Doctson would have meant a SB then the Jackson pick sucks so bad. But I'm not convinced it's one player who's going to make the difference for the Bengals. The coaches have to change what they are doing on the offensive side of the ball come playoff time.

Yeah, crippling the team from drafting players at other positions would solve everything?

[WeezyBengal]

(04-29-2016, 08:07 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Despite losing in the playoffs, the last 5 seasons have been by far the most exciting of my lifetime (born 1991). Whatever we are doing, I'm fine with it. We need to get over the hump, sure, but hey, we have a shot every year to do so.

This is kind of where I am. 

Like I said, I dont mind the sustainability picks. If we get into the playoffs every year, odds are we are going to eventually break through and win a couple games. Its just going to happen. 

[WeezyBengal]

(04-29-2016, 08:15 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Honestly, the "one player away" philosophy is only good in free agency.  In FA, you know exactly what you are getting, a proven player.  In the draft, even the most highly touted prospects are still crapshoots.  Over the years, I have played out the scenarios in my head, what if the Bengals would have traded up and taken so-and-so.  But, you can't count on that.  What if the Bengals traded up in the 1st, most likely giving up two later picks, only to select a player that got injured in camp?  Or worse, turned out to be a bust in general?

I'm fine with the "safe" pick of Jackson.  He was the best player on the board, at the time.  Although, I really wanted the team to address a need of higher perception, by me at least.

Good point about the FA. That is a whole nother topic. I would love to see the Bengals go after a proven FA, especially when they are this close to being a Super Bowl winning team. 

[jjvolt]

(04-29-2016, 05:35 PM)Au165 Wrote: This is revisionist history at it's finest.

I screamed from the hilltop about this right after the 2nd rd. a year ago. No revisionist history.

[Hammerstripes]

There's only one major problem with this thread:

For the most part, if you are depending on a rookie to step in and play a large role, you're asking for trouble. Sure, there are guys that come in and play well in their rookie years, but for the most part they are not truly ready to step in and start.

If you are talking about "win now," the draft really isn't the place to have that kind of discussion.

[*Nately120*]

(04-29-2016, 11:47 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: There's only one major problem with this thread:

For the most part, if you are depending on a rookie to step in and play a large role, you're asking for trouble. Sure, there are guys that come in and play well in their rookie years, but for the most part they are not truly ready to step in and start.

If you are talking about "win now," the draft really isn't the place to have that kind of discussion.

What makes us win now, then? All through free agency we hear how crappy teams are the ones trying to change their fortunes with free agents and now it's the draft and we are hearing that crappy teams are trying to change their fortunes through the draft.

As much as I'd like to believe the Bengals are fine as they are, the fact that every team currently with a mere 2 year playoff streak has a victory but us makes me wonder if we can simply continue this slow and steady process.

Since we started our 5 year streak the Seahawks, Cardinals, Chiefs, panthers, Broncos, Colts, Steelers, and Redskins have all gone from beneath us in some regard to as far or further than us in the playoffs.

Why don't other teams need to make the playoffs 6 times to do something? What's the secret? Some of those teams drafted impact rookies (a few super high picks we don't get, obviously) and some hit on free agents or made trades. I don't think any of them turned the corner by drafting 2 backup linemen, though.

Anywho, not bitter, just wondering why our wise off seasons haven't been bearing playoff fruit!

[Beaker]

This thread is moot now. We drafted Nick Vigil. The Bengals have obviously adopted a win now attitude.