The Bodine Witch Hunt

[BengalsRocker]

(05-01-2016, 02:39 PM)Beaker Wrote: Nick Vigil on the team automatically makes Russell Bodine better.

Nick Vigil beat Bodine and Alexander's ass at the same time.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-01-2016, 02:39 PM)Beaker Wrote: Nick Vigil on the team automatically makes Russell Bodine better.

Only if Vigil is volunteering his time to train with Bodine, in pushing heavy objects...

[Joelist]

Let's just resolve the whole Bodine witch question....put him underwater. If he drowns he's not a witch....

[muskiesfan]

It really should be this simple, if Westerman is better than Bodine then Westerman should be the starter. Unfortunately, our OLine coach wants to continue to allow the weakest link on the OLine to continue to be the starter without question. I see people talking about how competition is great when it comes to Dalton, Peko, Maualuga, Kirkpatrick, Nugent, etc, etc. Question Paul Alexander and they tell you how you know nothing about football. Really?

Alexander needs to replaced, period. Yes, the guy is loyal to his pet shitty players, but that's the issue. He picks these guys like Bodine, Roland, Livings, and backs them to the end. The problem is they're not good. Make no mistake, if Bodine somehow becomes a world beater, I'll be more than happy to eat my words. Looking at Alexander's body of work though, I won't hold my breathe.

Obviously I want Bodine to improve because I want the team to improve. I just don't see it. He may not be the worst in the league, but we just drafted a guy who could probably be better from Day 1 and our OLine Coach had a goddamn meltdown about it. It's nothing personal against Bodine. He's the worst player on the OLine and we drafted someone who should be given the opportunity to compete for that spot. Paul Alexander won't let that happen to his buddy though.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-30-2016, 11:11 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: If the truth is a "witchhunt"?   Then yeah...  we're all pretty much carrying the torches you F'n moron.

Center is a glaring problem on this team.

Just Google it Paul.  It's not that hard.

"Though he was essentially handed the starting job as a rookie, Bodine has done little to reward the Bengals for their patience with him in hopes he could become their franchise center. He's routinely been pushed around in the run game and was part of the reason why Cincinnati finished 2015 ranked 23rd in rushing yards per carry (3.9).



His pass-blocking has been serviceable, but mainly because the Bengals had utilized a quick passing game that makes it hard for defenses to get pressure up the middle.



Bodine finished his rookie season as one of the worst-rated centers and didn't improve much in Year 2. In fact, Pro Football Focus ranked Bodine as their 30th-best center out of 39 eligible players. His 42.4 grade puts him in PFF's 'replaceable' tier of players, the worst of five tiers PFF has.



If you look at that list, most of the names down in Bodine's range are guys like Cody Wallace, Trevor Robinson, Joe Looney and Jamil Douglas, guys who were either backup centers or guards moved to center because of injuries.



That's not exactly good company for Bodine to be in, especially when you're talking about a Bengals team that's been painfully close to being a Super Bowl contender. It stings to think how good the Bengals' offensive line would have been this past season had they gotten just average play at center."

(04-30-2016, 11:37 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: "And then I was talking to Whit (Andrew Whitworth) about (former Bengals center) Rich (Braham), and Whit said, ‘Don’t compare Bodine to Rich Braham.’"

Best posts i have seen for awhile, major Reps BengalsRocker.

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-01-2016, 01:45 PM)McC Wrote: A coach can't have favorites.  A coach has to be able to objectively assess his players.  What year the player is in is really beside the point.  Did he play well or not?  The only other pertinent question is did he improve.  

And if a coach is asked a question about a draftee and he launches into a little ***** tirade about his own personal project, he looks like a true weenie, especially if that project is going so badly.

The way he acted, it looks like heat is not only coming from the outside.

He didn't get better from year one to two and that means one of two things--PA is not getting him coached up or he was wrong about the player's potential to begin with.

Lotta guys could kick an old fat guy's ass.  Doesn't mean they could all play C in the NFL.

Right on ! Couldn't agree more

The favorites, pet projects, loyalty at all costs to this player or that is one of the major rungs on the ladder of zero-accountability that has been built here.

D. Roland couldn't have made another NFL team the last two seasons he was here. Now we have the M. Hunt project ongoing and it's painfully obvious he should have been let go after last preseason. He has an extremely low football IQ and that's not going to change.
Gutcheck, Cook the list goes on. Hell Tate is still here !

Now we have the Bodine project and he'll most likely be retained as starter much longer than he should be. If he doesn't take a major step forward this year I hope they have the good sense to move on.

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 04:15 PM)muskiesfan Wrote:  we just drafted a guy who could probably be better from Day 1 and our OLine Coach had a goddamn meltdown about it.

It is the massive amount of ignorant comments like this tht forces Paul to defenend Bodine agsint a witch hunt.

A fifth round pick who has never played Center is automatically better than Bodine?  Are you kidding?  That is so ridiculous there is not way to respond to it.

[muskiesfan]

(05-01-2016, 04:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is the massive amount of ignorant comments like this tht forces Paul to defenend Bodine agsint a witch hunt.

A fifth round pick who has never played Center is automatically better than Bodine?  Are you kidding?  That is so ridiculous there is not way to respond to it.

I love how you constantly love to look down your nose at everyone, but then ignore, twist, or straight up lie about they said.

I never said he was already better, I said he probably could be better. That's not even an endorsement about how good Westerman is, I just don't think he could do a whole lot worse than Bodine.

Obviously there is a way to respond which, like always, is you calling me ignorant because I don't agree with you. Spare me the "this is the internet" speech. I love discussing football and I enjoy the discussions and debates. It gets old constantly being belittled by you if you disagree with me. I don't call you names so I don't understand why its so hard to not receive the same consideration.

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 04:15 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Alexander needs to replaced, period. Yes, the guy is loyal to his pet shitty players, but that's the issue. He picks these guys like Bodine, Roland, Livings, and backs them to the end. 

Paul would have much rather had draft picks than undrafted free agents like Roland and Livings, But he does the best with what he is given,  And he has always been happy to move on when he got better replacements.

Roland only started two season here, and that was only because our first round pick (Andre Smith) was struggling with injuries.

Nate Livings was another UDFA that Paul was forced to use as a starter.  Livings started here for three years and was signed by another team to be a starter when he left.  Paul never "supported him to the end".  In fact he was giving Mathis starts over Livings in '09 until Mathis got injured.

[PDub80]

Look, it's unrealistic to beat up on PA. None of these coaches are perfect. He has had some outstanding Online talent, some of which he developed, some of which were badasses when they got to Cincy.

I admire him for sticking up for his players and so do they I would guess.

Was he wrong for dragging it out when he did? Yeah, maybe. But I like a guy who does stuff like that and it's super hypocritical for fans to want Marvin or whoever to speak out and then jump on PA when he does. Bunch of hyaenas.

PA's point is a valid one. I don't see many naysayers countering it very well. Look, Bodine is only 23. He has been fine for being so young. There's competition at that spot now. He's not so green any more. So, let's see how it shakes out. Lots of time between now and the season starting.

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 04:29 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: I never said he was already better, I said he probably could be better. That's not even an endorsement about how good Westerman is, I just don't think he could do a whole lot worse than Bodine.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how anyone could think that a fith round pick who would have to make a drastic change to a position he has never played would immediately be better than a guy who has started in the NFL for two years.  I mean even the silly PFF rankings do not say that Bodine is better than some other staring centers in the league.

[Aquapod770]

(05-01-2016, 04:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Nate Livings was another UDFA that Paul was forced to use as a starter.  Livings started here for three years and was signed by another team to be a starter when he left.  

Funny how you always seem to forget that he was benched after one year and out of the league after the 2nd. 

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2016, 07:09 PM)Aquapod770 Wrote: Funny how you always seem to forget that he was benched after one year and out of the league after the 2nd. 

I never forgot that.  The Cowboys didn't have an O-line coach as good as Paul

[SunsetBengal]

(05-01-2016, 04:15 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: It really should be this simple, if Westerman is better than Bodine then Westerman should be the starter. Unfortunately, our OLine coach wants to continue to allow the weakest link on the OLine to continue to be the starter without question. I see people talking about how competition is great when it comes to Dalton, Peko, Maualuga, Kirkpatrick, Nugent, etc, etc. Question Paul Alexander and they tell you how you know nothing about football. Really?

Alexander needs to replaced, period. Yes, the guy is loyal to his pet shitty players, but that's the issue. He picks these guys like Bodine, Roland, Livings, and backs them to the end. The problem is they're not good. Make no mistake, if Bodine somehow becomes a world beater, I'll be more than happy to eat my words. Looking at Alexander's body of work though, I won't hold my breathe.

Obviously I want Bodine to improve because I want the team to improve. I just don't see it. He may not be the worst in the league, but we just drafted a guy who could probably be better from Day 1 and our OLine Coach had a goddamn meltdown about it. It's nothing personal against Bodine. He's the worst player on the OLine and we drafted someone who should be given the opportunity to compete for that spot. Paul Alexander won't let that happen to his buddy though.

So, you honestly think that a late round Guard, with a questionable scouting report, is able to usurp the guy who has been starting at Center for the past two years? 

I understand your frustration, I really do.  But the fact that they didn't even approach the Center position in this draft should tell you what the team feels about both PA's opinion, and their overall opinion of Bodine.

This team is loyal to players under contract, and as history would dictate, they don't put a whole lot of value on the Center position.  It boggles me, to no end.  However, by criticizing Alexander and Bodine, you might as well be pissing in the wind, uphill, with oncoming traffic watching, and laughing at you..

[*michaelsean*]

(05-01-2016, 12:44 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: What I do have a problem with is apparently we are still picking offensive linemen on how hard they shake our 50 something+ year old offensive line coach's hand and whether he thinks they will beat his ass.

Intimidate the piano man and you get picked by the Bengals....

He wants tough guys but comes across as a soft spoken fatso cupcake. Nothing about the man exudes toughness.

21 seasons as the offensive line coach. The one thing connecting us to our old losing ways other than the ownership.

There are pros and cons. He has a couple success stories. And failures. Complacency kills was a saying we had in the USMC.

There is nothing the softbatch chubosko piano man could say that would fire me up enough to go fight James Harrison or Terrell Suggs or Cameron Heyward. When his fire up speech is him sitting back talking about how he played a mean song on the piano one time while eating a Twinkie. I'm mentally checking out.
 

I don't even get all the references, but I'm LMAO!

[TGISunday]

No player is above replacement. Much less this guy.

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/h-VOP4RJARNeUfXDHTOmV3xlN30=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4103956/Hill_Brandon_WIlliams_Ravens.0.gif

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/ZEhvnWFajvsw4a7Tae3tLVuHLsQ=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4223307/BodineSurrendersPressure.0.gif

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http://i.imgur.com/YhaQBIH.gif

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[*ochocincos*]

I fully believe that Christian Westerman was brought in to be a quality backup guard with the potential to start if Zeitler leaves in FA next offseason. If he is to ever be groomed as a center, it will be in 2017 if Zeitler stays and Bodine struggles.

In Bodine's defense, it's expected that a mid-round draft pick will take a few years to develop into a good starter. If he was a first or second round pick, he would have more expectation to be a quality starter earlier.

The issue that many people have felt though for the past couple seasons is the Bengals should have been in "win-now" mode and brought in an upper-tier center that was ready from Day 1. That could have either been a good veteran (Alex Mack) or a Round 1-2 draft pick. Bodine could then have been given time to develop properly without the expectation that he should be dominant from the get-go.

2016 will be a critical year for Bodine. If he doesn't show a big leap by the end of this season, the Bengals might be tempted to pull the trigger on an early-round center. That would give Bodine one final year to prove himself while grooming a potential replacement that would take over in 2018.

[BritishBengal]

Alexander knows he is the large weak link in the line, it's why he felt the need to so openly and strongly address the issue. The fact is though, starting a rookie at centre is always a risk and even with top talent it can backfire, just ask the Browns. Bodine has done a solid job since coming in. I think it is the right decision to give him one more year, even if Kelly was still on the board at 24 there is no guarantee he would have been any better.

[muskiesfan]

(05-01-2016, 04:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Paul would have much rather had draft picks than undrafted free agents like Roland and Livings, But he does the best with what he is given,  And he has always been happy to move on when he got better replacements.

I will concede that one to you. I agree with that. The Bengals haven't always helped Alexander with the quality of players they give him.

(05-01-2016, 04:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I'm sorry, but I don't see how anyone could think that a fith round pick who would have to make a drastic change to a position he has never played would immediately be better than a guy who has started in the NFL for two years.  I mean even the silly PFF rankings do not say that Bodine is better than some other staring centers in the league.

Again, I think Westerman has the potential to be better. I don't think he was drafted to replace Bodine though. Honestly, I just think it's frustrating that Alexander isn't even willing to entertain the idea though. That is my biggest hang up. Bodine isn't the worst starting center in the league, but he's the worst OLineman on the team.

(05-01-2016, 07:32 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So, you honestly think that a late round Guard, with a questionable scouting report, is able to usurp the guy who has been starting at Center for the past two years? 

I understand your frustration, I really do.  But the fact that they didn't even approach the Center position in this draft should tell you what the team feels about both PA's opinion, and their overall opinion of Bodine.

This team is loyal to players under contract, and as history would dictate, they don't put a whole lot of value on the Center position.  It boggles me, to no end.  However, by criticizing Alexander and Bodine, you might as well be pissing in the wind, uphill, with oncoming traffic watching, and laughing at you..

As I said before, it's not so much me endorsing the talent of Westerman as much as questioning the ability of Bodine. Honestly, my comments are coming from a place of frustration considering Alexander won't even consider the idea or give it a shot. I hope Bodine improves and makes big strides this year. I just don't count on it.

You're right that the team hasn't valued centers. While I put the bulk of the blame on Alexander, the team hasn't made it a priority either.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-01-2016, 02:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But when I looked up the numbers we are not talking about anything close to half a second.  we are talking about a few hundreths of a second

https://www.profootballfocus.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/2.1-2.5-Seconds.png

These numbers show that there is only a few hundreths of second difference

Hmm...looks like your graph only includes QBs in the 2.1-2.5 second range (the best range). Why don't you show us a graph that includes all QBs?

I'd be willing to bet that Dalton's time is at least 0.5 seconds better than the average time for all QBs.

(05-01-2016, 02:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Bengals have fired plenty of coaches.  This argument makes no sense.

"Bengals front office never fires anyone I want them to fire therefore they never fire anyone. Derp."

Stop putting words in my mouth, Fred. I said "lifer" assistants. When you spend 15-30 years in one spot, you tend to get very comfortable in your position. Especially when it doesn't matter how your unit performs. 

Seriously though, we've finished 20th or worse in YPC in every year but one since 2006. When you're not held accountable for performances like that, no wonder PA thinks it's ok to throw half his line under the bus to defend his latest pet project.