The Bodine Witch Hunt

[fredtoast]

This reminds me of when I tried to convince some of the friends of my 12 year old daughter that Justin Beiber was not that cool.

Sometimes people just refuse to look at facts. Nothing I can do about that.

[*ochocincos*]

When Paul Alexander says the fans need to give a player at least a couple years to develop....

[CageTheBengal]

(05-05-2016, 01:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This reminds me of when I tried to convince some of the friends of my 12 year old daughter that Justin Beiber was not that cool.

Sometimes people just refuse to look at facts.  Nothing I can do about that.

You spend your time debating twelve year old girls about how cool Justin Bieber is? Those poor kids.

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2016, 02:51 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: You spend your time debating twelve year old girls about how cool Justin Bieber is? Those poor kids.

Yes I actually talk to my children and her friends.  And I also try to pass on some good advice.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-05-2016, 01:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are not the jury.

On my side of the jury I have PFF, FootballOutsiders, Sports Illustrated, and even Evan Mathis himself.

So it looks like I win.

So just when are PFF grades "a joke", and when aren't they?  Depends on the narrative?

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-The-Bodine-Witch-Hunt?pid=212557#pid212557

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-03-2016, 05:45 PM)magikod Wrote: What about Wilkerson? I think that was his name. The center from LSU a few years back, I remember he came in for like 3 games when our center got hurt and we had 100+ yards rushing in each of the games. Then we go with our regular center (Ghiuick or whatever spelling it is), and our line couldn't run the ball worth a damn again.

I really wish we could have landed the center from Michigan in the 3rd round. That would have made our draft this year amazing. 

We really do need some competition at the center position. Even if the backup doesn't start, it could at least motivate Bodine to step up his game and improve his game a bit. 

This could be the make or break year for Bodine (like I said with Margus Hunt in another thread). Center is the most important position on the O-line in my opinion, he is the one who sets up all the other linemen pre-snap on there blocking assignments, which linemen is picking up the blitzer, etc.

-magikod

.....which Bodine is actually pretty good at.  It's technique and getting killed at the point of attack that he struggles with.....which falls back on coaching.  The guy is football smart it appears, he just needs some better coaching.

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2016, 03:17 PM)Wyche Wrote: So just when are PFF grades "a joke", and when aren't they?  Depends on the narrative?

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-The-Bodine-Witch-Hunt?pid=212557#pid212557

Individual rankings are not valid because they can penalize a player for playing more snaps.  Team o-line rankings do not have that same flaw.

[Bengalholic]

(05-05-2016, 03:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Individual rankings are not valid because they can penalize a player for playing more snaps.  Team o-line rankings do not have that same flaw.

You've referred to PFF rankings as a joke on quite a few occasions when someone is using them to counter your argument. But then, when a certain PFF ranking says something that might support your side...all of a sudden, it has merit.   

Seems disingenuous...at best. 

[McC]

(05-05-2016, 01:43 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote:  
I consider the majority of this board "the jury", so yes, I am on "the jury".

Wts, "the jury" has voted and it's like 20-1 against your argument.

 More power to you though Fred. Your tenacity embodies everything that I like about my new motto in life, "Just keep plowing!" 

That's what she said.

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2016, 04:06 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: You've referred to PFF rankings as a joke on quite a few occasions when someone is using them to counter your argument. But then, when a certain PFF ranking says something that might support your side...all of a sudden, it has merit.   

Seems disingenuous...at best. 

Only seems disingenuous if you ignore my explanation.

But since you all are ignoring ALL the facts i post in this thread I am not surprised.

[GreenCornBengal]

The Bodine Witch Hunt is real. 12 pages on this s***, you guys serious?

Does he need to improve? Sure.
Has he done alright? Ya.
Will he get better? Most likely.

The kid had to go against most of the premier defensive lines last year. The majority of the teams we played last year had great interior Dlines. Next year is a similar story. I personally think the kid can only get better. Also, with the great Guards and Tackles that we have, it doesn't surprise me that teams try to take advantage of Bodine. There are plenty of Blitzes straight down the middle of our offense simply because blitzing the outside is difficult. I guess what im saying is, Bodines job may be one of the most difficult on this offense.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-05-2016, 03:24 PM)Wyche Wrote: .....which Bodine is actually pretty good at.  It's technique and getting killed at the point of attack that he struggles with.....which falls back on coaching.  The guy is football smart it appears, he just needs some better coaching.

Bodine not being able to dominate that the point of attack, was the reasoning behind my post suggesting that he spend more time practicing the truck push, than the bench press.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-05-2016, 01:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are not the jury.

On my side of the jury I have PFF, FootballOutsiders, Sports Illustrated, and even Evan Mathis himself.

So it looks like I win.

(04-30-2016, 11:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: --PFF rankings are a joke.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/03/01/ranking-the-free-agents-offensive-interior-linemen/

Quote:4. Evan Mathis, Cincinnati Bengals
Age as of 1st September 2011: 29
2010 Grade: +6.2
Key Stat: Played just 114 snaps in 2010.
Behind The Numbers: After a great start to the 2009 season, Mathis returned from a brief injury and found himself in a rotation with Nate Livings. It was a strange decision, but not as strange as Mathis being dropped to the bench for nearly 90% of the 2010 season. When he got his chance he played as well as you’d expect, allowing one pressure and generally winning his battles in the trenches. Mathis could be one of the steals of free agency.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/22/ranking-the-2012-free-agents-guards/

Quote:2) Evan Mathis, Philadelphia Eagles
Age as of 1st September, 2012: 30
2011 Grade: +34.6
Key Stat: In 22 starts, has only finished a game with a negative overall grade once.
Behind the Numbers: That negatively-graded game was in Week 9 of the 2009 season, a game he left after 15 snaps in Baltimore due to an ankle injury. Whenever Mathis has been allowed to start, he has always impressed. Stuck in a baffling rotation with Nate Livings in Cincinnati, his quality was hidden somewhat, but when given a chance by Howard Mudd and the Eagles this season he ran with it. He and Jason Peters formed the best left side in football in 2011. This was Mathis’ first season approaching sixteen starts, he fell one short, so the market may still be limited for him in terms of a body of work supporting a big contract. That said, he has proven in two stops now to be one of the better guards in the league and for a team not looking to break the bank for a quality guard, Mathis should be top of their list.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2010/07/02/2009-offensive-line-rankings/

Quote:No. 7 — Cincinnati Bengals (Run No. 8, Pass No. 6, Penalties No. 29) This is a huge positive move for the Bengals, but you can’t help thinking that but for some strange coaching decisions it could have been even better. With Evan Mathis installed as the full-time starting LG the Bengals won six of seven games and he played as well as anyone. But when he returned from mid-season injury the coaches saw fit to rotate him with the vastly inferior Nate Livings. In addition, as the season wore on, the permutations and frequency of use of unbalanced lines became less a sign of clear strategy and more an indication of desperation

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2010/03/02/pass-blocking-productivity-part-2/

Quote:One of the most surprising things is how the Bengals rotated their left guard position when both were fully fit. Evan Mathis is the better run blocker and is leagues ahead of Nate Livings when it comes to pass protection. Mathis ranked in the top 10 and Livings finished just outside the bottom 10. Mathis played more than 100 additional snaps but gave up no sacks throughout the season, compared to the three Livings allowed. This makes you wonder why the Bengals featured Livings more when both were fit; it’s something to watch heading into free agency and the offseason.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/23/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-2/

Quote:13. Cincinnati Bengals (5th)
Run Rank 18th, Pass Rank 6th, Penalties Rank 30th
The Bengals had some problems at right guard without Bobbie Williams on the field. Clint Boling struggled in the first four games and Mike McGlynn wasn’t overly impressive when he came in at the end of the season. What happens at the guard spots will be something to watch going forward, as the line as a whole did an excellent job in putting Andy Dalton in a position to succeed.
Best Player: It remains Andrew Whitworth (+11.0) who had some problems with his run blocking brought on by a mid-season knee injury, but was one of the finest pass protectors in all the league.
Worst Player: Left Guard Nate Livings (-10.4) had some fine moments (especially his shut down of Antonio Smith in Week 14), but was all too often capable of being beaten like a drum. Ahtyba Rubins’ handling of him in Week 12 is a solid example of this.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/1/6/1920278/offensive-rushing-problems-in-2010-look-no-further-than-everyone

Quote:PFF rates Whitworth, Kyle Cook, Evan Mathis and Williams as good run blockers while Jermaine Gresham (the team's worst rated run blocker), Andre Smith, Anthony Collins, Dennis Roland and Nate Livings were rated with negative scores. And yes, it's still confusing why Mathis only received 114 offensive snaps compared to Livings, who participated on 1,014 snaps.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/03/30/nate-livings-consistency-concern/

Quote:Livings hasn’t received a positive grade from PFF for a complete season in any of the past four years we’ve been grading.

Let me guess, theses rankings are a joke, but PFF is inexplicably on your side?
http://articles.philly.com/2014-01-05/sports/45862115_1_howard-mudd-jason-peters-demetress-bell
This is what Mathis himself said . . .

Quote:"I'll always give him tons of credit for teaching me so much new information at that point in my career," Mathis said of Mudd.

Here is what Alexander said on rotating Mathis and Livings . . .

Quote:“I had never done that before. I’m opposed to it. I don’t think it’s the right way to go. I think you settle on a guy and go,” Alexander said of the platoon. “But it was a situation where it was better. It was a unique situation. And we’ll look at that and decide if it’s going to be one of those guys, or both, or what.”

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/O-Line-embraces-move-back-to-09-style/93751472-cc70-4996-bffb-d4a0ad8ecfe5

Quote:Alexander thinks the change back in style is going to help the big, physical Livings ("He's improved and can still improve"), but he'd like free agent Evan Mathis, Livings's backup, to return. Alexander realizes Mathis wants to start some place, but for the moment he's keeping Livings as his incumbent.

 
The Bengals changed schemes between 2009, 2010, and 2011, but Alexander clearly favored fat ass Livings over the athletic Mathis because he prefers fat ass Olinemen like Max Jean-Gilles who was signed to replace Mathis, but his fat ass was released before the start of the season.

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2016, 06:15 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Let me guess, theses rankings are a joke, but PFF is inexplicably on your side?

I have explained this 3 times already.  I have clearly explained the difference between the individual rankings and the team rankings.

All you are doing is proving hoiw clueless you are when it comes to reading comprehension.

(05-05-2016, 06:15 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The Bengals changed schemes between 2009, 2010, and 2011, but Alexander clearly favored fat ass Livings over the athletic Mathis because he prefers fat ass Olinemen like Max Jean-Gilles who was signed to replace Mathis, but his fat ass was released before the start of the season.

AND EVERY OTHER TEAM IN THE LEAGUE AGREED WITH ALEXANDER.  THAT IS WHY MATHIS HAD TO SETTLE FOR A LEAGUE MINIMUM CONTRACT IN '10.


You can try to spin it anyway you want, but the fact is that Mathis did not look good in '10.  It is one thing to claim you are smarter than PA.  It is another thing to claim that you are smarter than every O-line coach for every single team in the league.

[OBX Bengal]

I thought this article that I read this morning was interesting and kind of related to this discussion:

Kyle Long, Bobby Massie hit back at offensive line critics

Kyle Long, Bobby Massie and panel of other offensive lineman disparaged Pro Football Focus' grading system and chided other critics "who don't understand what an offensive lineman does" during a roundtable interview with CBS Sports' Pete Prisco.


Long decried the unrealistic expectations faced by fellow guards and other positions on the line during the panel discussion published Thursday.


"We're the Mushroom Club," he said. "They throw us in a closet, feed us (bleep) and expect us to come out a finished product."

He added, "The system is set up where we don't have a voice. All we are are robots. Robots that get graded."


Massie, who will play right tackle for the Bears this fall, questioned how sites like Pro Football Focus can grade players when they can't be entirely sure what their assignments are on each play.

"They don't know the play," he said. "They don't know what each lineman has to do."

Massie was even more direct in assailing the lack of teaching from most coaching staffs today.

"In practice you have to do what the coaches want to make them happy. Make them feel like they have the big (bleep) in the room," Massie said. "On game day, you have to do your own stuff. The coaches, they're not out there blocking. They're in a big, comfortable chair with the clicker. The O-line and D-line are the best athletes on the field. It's not the quarterback, the receivers or the corners. We're going against the biggest, strongest, fastest in the world."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/ct-kyle-long-bobby-massie-offensive-line-critics-20160505-story.html

[Shake n Blake]

(05-05-2016, 05:19 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: The Bodine Witch Hunt is real. 12 pages on this s***, you guys serious?

Does he need to improve? Sure.
Has he done alright? Ya.
Will he get better? Most likely.

The kid had to go against most of the premier defensive lines last year. The majority of the teams we played last year had great interior Dlines. Next year is a similar story. I personally think the kid can only get better. Also, with the great Guards and Tackles that we have, it doesn't surprise me that teams try to take advantage of Bodine. There are plenty of Blitzes straight down the middle of our offense simply because blitzing the outside is difficult. I guess what im saying is, Bodines job may be one of the most difficult on this offense.

Well, most of the teams we'll see in the playoffs will have good/great interior linemen. On a team like the Bengals, the expectations have to be raised.

You can't have a big liability in the middle of your line.

[Derrick]

(05-01-2016, 01:13 AM)Stormborn Wrote: Can't say it better than this. This is their self made mess, drafting a late round backup in the 4th to start with no competition, and surprisingly have that player be the obvious weakness on the entire offense. They have to live with it and make it better. This did nothing but make him look bad when it could've been averted.

I doubt the F.O. and Marvy will ever concede that they messed up.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-05-2016, 06:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have explained this 3 times already.  I have clearly explained the difference between the individual rankings and the team rankings.

All you are doing is proving hoiw clueless you are when it comes to reading comprehension.


AND EVERY OTHER TEAM IN THE LEAGUE AGREED WITH ALEXANDER.  THAT IS WHY MATHIS HAD TO SETTLE FOR A LEAGUE MINIMUM CONTRACT IN '10.


You can try to spin it anyway you want, but the fact is that Mathis did not look good in '10.  It is one thing to claim you are smarter than PA.  It is another thing to claim that you are smarter than every O-line coach for every single team in the league.

During PFF's team ratings they discussed how bad Livings was on an individual basis.  I never claimed to be smarter than Paul Alexander or all the O line coaches, that's just you making up BS.  "Spin it anyway you want," but only one GM was stupid enough to sign Livings (Jerry Jones) and Alexander's pet project was out of the league a year after being out from under Alexander's protective wing while Mathis is still playing and a former two time Pro Bowler and All Pro.  And according to your friends at PFF, Mathis only got 114 snaps in 2010 and he damn sure didn't look worse than Livings.

[Bengalholic]

(05-05-2016, 05:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Only seems disingenuous if you ignore my explanation.

But since you all are ignoring ALL the facts i post in this thread I am not surprised.

Oh, I read your 'explanation'. I guess it's purely coincidental that the rankings you chose to disregard, were also the most troublesome for your arguments...while the rankings you endorse just happen to be more favorable?   

On the topic of Jethro himself...I'm rooting for him. I won't say I'm a big fan of his, but I'm by no means a hater either. Right now, he's the starting C, so I will root for him to improve his overall game and to become a much more consistent player in year 3. The better he can become, the better it is for the entire offense. 

If we don't see marked improvements this year, then they absolutely need to look for another solution at C.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-05-2016, 07:28 PM)OBX Bengal Wrote: I thought this article that I read this morning was interesting and kind of related to this discussion:

Kyle Long, Bobby Massie hit back at offensive line critics

Kyle Long, Bobby Massie and panel of other offensive lineman disparaged Pro Football Focus' grading system and chided other critics "who don't understand what an offensive lineman does" during a roundtable interview with CBS Sports' Pete Prisco.


Long decried the unrealistic expectations faced by fellow guards and other positions on the line during the panel discussion published Thursday.


"We're the Mushroom Club," he said. "They throw us in a closet, feed us (bleep) and expect us to come out a finished product."

He added, "The system is set up where we don't have a voice. All we are are robots. Robots that get graded."


Massie, who will play right tackle for the Bears this fall, questioned how sites like Pro Football Focus can grade players when they can't be entirely sure what their assignments are on each play.

"They don't know the play," he said. "They don't know what each lineman has to do."

Massie was even more direct in assailing the lack of teaching from most coaching staffs today.

"In practice you have to do what the coaches want to make them happy. Make them feel like they have the big (bleep) in the room," Massie said. "On game day, you have to do your own stuff. The coaches, they're not out there blocking. They're in a big, comfortable chair with the clicker. The O-line and D-line are the best athletes on the field. It's not the quarterback, the receivers or the corners. We're going against the biggest, strongest, fastest in the world."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/ct-kyle-long-bobby-massie-offensive-line-critics-20160505-story.html

As a casual observer of PFF, and their methodology, I have often questioned how they come up with their grades.  As for what Massie says about OL coaches, I tend to believe him.  The fundamentals of football are blocking and tackling.  The people coaching your OL and DL should be masterful at teaching capable individuals how to improve their blocking and tackling techniques.  While Massie points out that the coaches are sitting in a comfy chair with a clicker, he is making a valid parallel that perhaps the coaches are good at pointing out what they are doing wrong, but not so much at instructing them on how to change what they are doing to improve.

I tie this to Russell Bodine, by the fact that he is still making the same mistakes, and getting beat strength on strength, as he was as a rookie. If Paul Alexander were the true "maestro" that some think he is, certainly he can coach his hand picked guy to get more powerful and drive with the lower body. Right?