The Bodine Witch Hunt

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-01-2016, 12:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In 2014 the Bengals played the AFC East.  Here is how those four teams ranked in rushing yards allowed per carry.

Jets...6
Pats..10
Bills...14
Fins...21
Avg...12.8

In 2015 we played the AFC West

KC....3
Den..13
Oak..16
SD....30
Avg...15.5


Arizona was the number 5 defense in the league.  They got pressure on almost every team they played, but overall Dalton scorched the Cards (22-39, 315 yds, 2 td, 0 int) so he was getting better protection than many other QBs did against them.  And only 4 other teams in the league had more yards against the Cards than the Bengals.  So if you want to cry about the offensive line maybe you should not choose a game were we hung 31 points and 388 yards on one of the best defense in the league on the road.

I just got back from a week out of town, a conference, a rehearsal dinner, and a wedding and this discussion is still going!  I laughed and sat down to read and catch up...this is where i started.

Fred, if you remember, I pointed out that the Bengals rushing offense rankings were deceptive in 2014 because they played what I called a defense optional conference, the NFC South while in 2015 their ranking significantly worsened because they played a much tougher NFC West.  Curiously, you countered with the AFC opponents that we faced in those years and demonstrated a whopping 2.7 place decrease in those perspective team's rankings from 2014 to 2015.  

You took the time to look up all those rankings and calculate the difference in 2014 and 2015 for the Bengals OTHER opponents those seasons, but not the ones I mentioned.  Why?  Did it not support your arguement?

Regardless, I love that there is some discussion still going on about this.  But I will say again that my HOPE is that Bodine improves and the team rolls this year.  However, hope is not a strategy and I fear he will again be the weak link.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-02-2016, 03:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Andre Smith also struggled in run blocking last year.  If Bodine was the entire problem then we would have been more successful running off tackle.

You don't have to be a coach to see that.

Let's examine that.  What was the coaching there?  He was, at the very least, a solid run blocker but then he loses 30+ (I'm betting it was closer to 50lbs) in his contract year and can't move a 260LB DE?  Sorry, but your example of Andre Smith only further makes one question PA.  He got worse throughout his career here.  He was a top 10 pick. What the heck happened to this guy?  

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-02-2016, 06:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You must not have been a Bengal fan last year when Whit was crying about Paul bringing in competition.

Oh wait, yes you were.

Guess you just don't think before you post.

I was a top 5 swimmer in my best event at conference my junior year.  My coach recruited a guy that came in with almost the same time as a freshman.  I was pissed.  The next year, I made Olympic Trials and broke the school record by over 3 seconds.

Competition improves the breed, whether you like it or not.  

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2016, 12:04 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Is that your story and you're sticking to it?

No.  That is Johnathan Joseph's story, and I am pretty sure he is sticking to it.

[yellowxdiscipline]

Im still sticking to my prediction that Bodine will not finish out the season as the starting Center.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-08-2016, 12:38 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Let's examine that.  What was the coaching there?  He was, at the very least, a solid run blocker but then he loses 30+ (I'm betting it was closer to 50lbs) in his contract year and can't move a 260LB DE?  Sorry, but your example of Andre Smith only further makes one question PA.  He got worse throughout his career here.  He was a top 10 pick. What the heck happened to this guy?  

It's the player's fault.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-06-2016, 02:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: http://www.houstontexans.com/news/article-2/Johnathan-Joseph-A-decade-of-excellence/1b7ef0f3-7abc-46e1-b7ff-70dd615eba4a

“After my rookie year, my second year in the league, I broke my foot,” Joseph said. “The surgery went well but it didn’t heal all the way. The doctors told me I had the option to either have surgery again right then and there once I got cleared to practice, or I could wait it out and wait until it breaks again.”

Eager to get back on the field, Joseph chose the second option. He played just over half a season when suffered the same break in his left foot. It was the third time in his young career that Joseph had to deal with a broken bone in his foot, twice in his left and once in his right.








I don't remember arguing with you over this, but I am not surprise that you though you were right when you were clearly wrong.   

(05-09-2016, 09:08 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  That is Johnathan Joseph's story, and I am pretty sure he is sticking to it.

Okay, let's explore that "story."

The first fracture happened after his rookie season in 2007.  He had surgery on his left foot before the start of the season.  Joseph has been quoted as saying the injury occured while covering Chad Johnson on a route during minicamp June 2007.

According to the story you quoted, Joseph played "just over half a season"  when he suffered the same break in the same foot.

Problem is he didn't miss any time at the end of 2007 due to injury . . .

http://www.nfl.com/player/johnathanjoseph/2495872/gamelogs?season=2007

However, he did miss time at the end of 2008 after the Philadelphia game . . .


http://www.nfl.com/player/johnathanjoseph/2495872/gamelogs?season=2008

Because the Bengals put him on IR after he had season ending foot surgery.  According to Hobson, he had surgery on the right foot . . .

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Joseph-100-percent/163521d7-8bc2-4d7e-9ea0-9230c8ff667e

Hobson reported it was a recurring stress fracture, but he just reported if affected a different foot than the 2007 fracture.  Plus, it happened 17 months later, not "just over half a season."  Is it "recurring" if it isn't in the same foot?  Is it recurring if it happens 17 months later?  Is it a stress fracture if the player knows exactly when the injury occured each time?  The answers are no, no, and no. A stress fracture has an insidious onset.  Patients can't tell you exactly when it happened, but the can tell you it just keeps getting worse and worse.  So I can tell you it was an acute fracture and not a stress fracture from his history.

Your article quoted Joseph stating, " The doctors told me I had the option to either have surgery again right then and there once I got cleared to practice" is incorrect.  If he needed a second surgery why would the doctors wait until he was cleared to practice?  They wouldn't.  They would perform the surgery as quickly as possible to get him back on the field as quickly as possible.  Could he be cleared for practice if he need a second surgery "right then and there"?  No.

The most commonly broken bone in the foot is the 5th metatarsal.  The most common fracture of the 5th metatarsal is the Dancer's fracture. The most common way to break it is rolling your ankle.  For a Joe Blow like yourself a Dancer's fracture would be treated with a walking boot for about 6 weeks.  For a pro athlete, they'll pin it.  Sometimes you might get a nonunion Dancer's fracture with or without surgery because "it didn't heal all the way."  What do they do for that?  Nothing unless it is bothering the patient because I've seen people walk around with one of those and didn't even know they had it.  It would take the same mechanism of injury with the same amount of force to break it a second time as it did the first time.  It is not "recurring" in the sense the first fracture lead to the second fracture, but rather because the player broke the most commonly broken bone in his foot in the most common way . . . again.  A Jone's fracture is very similar to a Dancer's fracture, but I can't imagine anyone allowing a player with a nonunion Jone's fracture to play until after surgery.  Lastly, if Joseph knew a second surgery was needed why didn't he have the surgery during the 2008 offseason rather than waiting until it broke in Nov 2008?

Both stories are filled with inaccuracies, so I guess it boils down to which inaccurate story you want to believe.  How good are your prognoses based off of inaccurate media stories, fred?  Apparently, not very good since Jospeh's "recurring" foot stress fracture seems to have stopped recurring.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2016, 01:08 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Joseph-100-percent/163521d7-8bc2-4d7e-9ea0-9230c8ff667e

Hobson reported it was a recurring stress fracture, but he just reported if affected a different foot than the 2007 fracture. 

No he did not.  From the story you linked...

 "the pain stretched all the way back to June 2, 2007 during a minicamp practice he originally suffered the break".


It is clear that the injury bwas to the same foot

(05-09-2016, 01:08 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Your article quoted Joseph stating, " The doctors told me I had the option to either have surgery again right then and there once I got cleared to practice" is incorrect.  If he needed a second surgery why would the doctors wait until he was cleared to practice?  They wouldn't.  They would perform the surgery as quickly as possible to get him back on the field as quickly as possible.  Could he be cleared for practice if he need a second surgery "right then and there"?  No.

The way I took it he was cleared to go back to practice and that is when he noticed the continued pain.


Are you seriously claiming that for some reason JJ was trying to lie about his former injury?  Why would he do that?  And how can you claim top know more thanthe doctors that actually examined him?  That is just ridiculous.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-09-2016, 01:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No he did not.  From the story you linked...

 "the pain stretched all the way back to June 2, 2007 during a minicamp practice he originally suffered the break".


It is clear that the injury bwas to the same foot

Not according to the report from the guy who works for the Bengals.  Are you admitting I can't believe Hobson's and the Bengals' injury information?

Quote:The way I took it he was cleared to go back to practice and that is when he noticed the continued pain.

They would know from the xrays before he was cleared to practice if it hadn't healed all the way.

Quote:Are you seriously claiming that for some reason JJ was trying to lie about his former injury?  Why would he do that?  And how can you claim top know more thanthe doctors that actually examined him?  That is just ridiculous.

I'm not stating Joseph lied, but studies show patients only remember 20% of what their doctor tells them and 50% of that is wrong.  Meaning they only remember 10% of what you tell them accurately.  

In order for me to claim to know more than the doctors that actually examined him, you would need to have a statement from those doctors. Show me one statement any of his doctors made about the injuries in question.  Just a single sentence.  You can't.  All you can show is media reports which can't correctly identify which foot, when it happened, or what kind of fracture.  You're a lawyer so I know you're smart enough to understand you don't have a shred of objective evidence.  You don't even have a first person quote.  You have second hand quotes from reporters who again can't agree on which foot was broken or when it was broken.

Go back to defending Alexander and Bratkowski.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2016, 02:19 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: In order for me to claim to know more than the doctors that actually examined him, you would need to have a statement from those doctors. Show me one statement any of his doctors made about the injuries in question.  Just a single sentence.  You can't.  All you can show is media reports which can't correctly identify which foot, when it happened, or what kind of fracture.  You're a lawyer so I know you're smart enough to understand you don't have a shred of objective evidence.  You don't even have a first person quote.  You have second hand quotes from reporters who again can't agree on which foot was broken or when it was broken.

I can understand that some patients don't remember exact medical terms.  But I am pretty sure Joseph knew which foot was injured.  And I am also pretty sure he would know what the doctor told him about making a choice between a corrective surgery or waiting to see if the problem returned.

That option makes more sens eot me than trying to believe that professional athlete could not remember which foot was injured and what the doctor had told him about his options..

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2016, 02:19 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Not according to the report from the guy who works for the Bengals.  Are you admitting I can't believe Hobson's and the Bengals' injury information?

In the case where the player claims he hurt one foot and Hobson claims it was the other then I am going to believe the player.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-09-2016, 02:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I can understand that some patients don't remember exact medical terms.  But I am pretty sure Joseph knew which foot was injured.  And I am also pretty sure he would know what the doctor told him about making a choice between a corrective surgery or waiting to see if the problem returned.

That option makes more sens eot me than trying to believe that professional athlete could not remember which foot was injured and what the doctor had told him about his options..

I've had patients claim I said the exact opposite of what I told them less than 5 minutes after I told them.  We're not talking medical terms.  We're talking plain English.

Me: You don't need an MRI.  Patient: He said I need an MRI.
Me: You don't need an antibiotic.  Patient:  He said I need an antibiotic.
Me: It's not broken.  Patient: He said it is broken.
Me: You don't need surgery.  Patient: He said I need surgery.

On and on.  I used to get upset and wonder how they could believe I said the exact opposite of what I said right after I said it.  Not anymore because experience has taught me to know better.  It happens.  Frequently.  Now I just patiently explain everything again because they are processing lots of new information for the first time.

That's my experience, fred.  What's your's? Do you find that happens to you a lot?  Hell, we've had this conversation in the past and you don't even remember.

(05-09-2016, 02:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In the case where the player claims he hurt one foot and Hobson claims it was the other then I am going to believe the player.

In those articles, Joseph never specified which foot he hurt.  The reporters specified the laterality, but their reports don't concur.

When did Hobson report the right foot was broken?  2009.  When did Sidhu report the left foot was broken? 2015.  When did Joseph sign with the Texans?  2011.  When did you claim Joseph had a recurrent foot issue?  2011.  Which report did you have then?  Hobson's 2009 report indicating it wasn't the same foot he broke in 2007.  Do you have a time machine to travel from 2011 to 2015 to read Sidhu's article and then travel back to 2011 to claim it was his left foot all along based upon your knowledge of the future?  No. At best, you have two conflicting reports that can't agree which foot was injured, when it was injured, or what type of fracture in a vacuum of objective evidence without any supporting statements from his treating physicians and a history of no recurring foot fractures since.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2016, 03:42 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: When did Hobson report the right foot was broken?  2009.  When did Sidhu report the left foot was broken? 2015.  When did Joseph sign with the Texans?  2011.  When did you claim Joseph had a recurrent foot issue?  2011.  Which report did you have then?  Hobson's 2009 report indicating it wasn't the same foot he broke in 2007. 

The '09 article that YOU posted a link to clearly says it was the SAME foot.

No wonder your patients seem confused.  You can't even remember what you posted yourself 5 minutes ago. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-09-2016, 03:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The '09 article that YOU posted a link to clearly says it was the SAME foot.

No wonder your patients seem confused.  You can't even remember what you posted yourself 5 minutes ago. 

It also reported his right foot was broken in 2008.  His left foot was broken in 2007.  Do you believe his right foot is the SAME as his left?

[Luvnit2]

(05-08-2016, 12:38 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Let's examine that.  What was the coaching there?  He was, at the very least, a solid run blocker but then he loses 30+ (I'm betting it was closer to 50lbs) in his contract year and can't move a 260LB DE?  Sorry, but your example of Andre Smith only further makes one question PA.  He got worse throughout his career here.  He was a top 10 pick. What the heck happened to this guy?  

A. Smith has been a very good to good NFL starter fro a very long time. I see #1 OL picks who either never start a game or are average at best. I think you need to take a good luck, lots of high OL and any position picks underperform. I think our OL has been a solid unit for a very long time, I do worry we seem to have major issues in obvious passing downs, but so do most teams.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2016, 04:07 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: It also reported his right foot was broken in 2008.  His left foot was broken in 2007.  Do you believe his right foot is the SAME as his left?

I have two choices.  I can either believe that Hobson mixed up "left" with "right", or I can believe that Joseph did not know which foot he broke.

Guess which one i am going with?

[Bengal Dude]

Fisher is practicing snapping the ball this offseason.

[McC]

(05-09-2016, 05:03 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: Fisher is practicing snapping the ball this offseason.

Lotta C stuff going on lately.  Interesting.

[Bengal Dude]

(05-09-2016, 05:10 PM)McC Wrote: Lotta C stuff going on lately.  Interesting.

I imagine the whole "Witch Hunt" thing is why we're seeing all of this talk about centers. I believe almost every OL in rookie camp tried their hand at center. Seems like this is a normal thing, but not usually reported. Now that the whole PA thing has fans talking, I'm guessing that we'll see a ton of reporting towards the center position.

[BengalsRocker]

(05-09-2016, 03:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The '09 article that YOU posted a link to clearly says it was the SAME foot.

No wonder your patients seem confused.  You can't even remember what you posted yourself 5 minutes ago. 

(05-09-2016, 04:07 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: It also reported his right foot was broken in 2008.  His left foot was broken in 2007.  Do you believe his right foot is the SAME as his left?

(05-09-2016, 04:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have two choices.  I can either believe that Hobson mixed up "left" with "right", or I can believe that Joseph did not know which foot he broke.

Guess which one i am going with?