Bengals extend Shawn Williams

[jj22]

I like Williams, but he hasn't done much to warrant an extension. We don't even know what we've got in him as a full year starter. Pretty premature, and the first head scratching extension in the last couple years. Gio on the other hand should have been/be the priority.

[J24]

They clearly think he is a good player and they wanted to lock him up long term before his price skyrockets.

[Wes Mantooth]

(05-17-2016, 11:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The #10 paid safety (based on average salary) is Aaron Williams at $6.5 million.

Is that in the Top 10 free Safeties, or Top 10 Safeties (FS and SS)?

Because one means top 3rd and one means top 15%.

[fredtoast]

(05-17-2016, 12:48 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Is that in the Top 10 free Safeties, or Top 10 Safeties (FS and SS)?

Because one means top 3rd and one means top 15%.

All safeties.  

[Au165]

(05-17-2016, 12:48 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Is that in the Top 10 free Safeties, or Top 10 Safeties (FS and SS)?

Because one means top 3rd and one means top 15%.

We don't distinguish between them so it doesn't matter. We play both safeties the same as far as coverage and going into the box.

[Wes Mantooth]

(05-17-2016, 12:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: We don't distinguish between them so it doesn't matter. We play both safeties the same as far as coverage and going into the box.

Not my point though.  When you simply say top 10, most people think about it as top 3rd, and/or relative to other positions.  ie Top 10 QB, Tight End.  The 9th best Running Back, although very good, is nowhere near elite.  Whereas, a top 10 safety (10 out of 64) is at or near elite status.

I just thought it deserved clarification.  Someone regarded as the 8th best Free Safety may very well be the 20th highest paid safety.

[bengalguy71]

https://youtu.be/yrpOaOsT8jA

This guy will be a beast! Understand why they let Reggie go now.

[fredtoast]

(05-17-2016, 12:27 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote:  It has almost nothing to do with actual risk or value, just whether or not he's worn the jersey before.

There is less risk when re-signing your own players than when bringing in a guy you are not familiar with.

If oyu look back at the deals the Bengals gave their own players, they very rarely end up over paying.  They have paid Vinny Rey like a starter for a few years, and I am sure there are a few others I might disagree with, but for the most part their contract extensions work out to be good value.

[BengalFanInNJ]

I'm also curious as to why they seemed to "rush" into extending him considering there may be more pressing needs to extend first.

[masonbengals fan]

(05-17-2016, 12:46 PM)J24 Wrote: They clearly think he is a good player and they wanted to lock him up long term before his price skyrockets.

Undoubtedly what they are thinking.

[BobJones4980]

(05-17-2016, 12:08 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Shawn Williams - 4 years, 19.5 mil (4.875 per), 4 mil guaranteed

Reggie Nelson - 2 years, 8.5 mil (4.25 per), 4 mil guaranteed

TJ Ward - 4 years, 22.5 mil (5.625 per), 7 mil guaranteed

Mike Mitchell - 5 years, 25 mil (5 per), 5 mil guaranteed

So what's the big deal? He got a bit more than an old Reggie Nelson and less than Mike Mitchell who isn't even very good.

[Au165]

When was the last time we got burned on a preemptive extension? We have a good track record with keeping our guys who should be kept. Not sure why people would question them when it's a low risk high reward situation.

[Who Dey Time]

(05-17-2016, 12:15 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: His deal is very comparable to that of guys like TJ Ward, Mike Mitchell and Antoine Bethea.  It's right below, and not at all far off from guys like Eric Weddle and Morgan Burnett.

It seems like a bit of head scratcher to be in such a rush to pay a play with 4 career starts a TJ Ward level contract. 

To each their own, but I would have rather paid a know commodity in Reggie Nelson for another season, and revaluated Williams's situation after the year. 

Hard to truly evaluate Williams if you keep putting Nelson out there though the extension does strike me as early.

Having said that, the Bengals FO has earned the benefit of the doubt on these things so I tend to lean towards the thinking that this was a good preemptive strike before Williams' value soared.

[Wes Mantooth]

(05-17-2016, 01:14 PM)BobJones4980 Wrote: So what's the big deal? He got a bit more than an old Reggie Nelson and less than Mike Mitchell who isn't even very good.

I posted those just for comparison. 

As I said earlier in the thread, I wasn't sure what the contract was for and was curious to see where they set his value.  I only provided those deals to give some examples of the market.

I think what some people are questioning is why there was such a rush to lock up a player with his experience.  (4 career starts, 39 career tackles, 2 career INT's, 5 career PD's)  Some people immediately point to potential savings as the clear cut answer, but given the deals shown above, I'm not sure they're all that much, barring an elite level season.

To each their own, but I personally think it's a tad strange to give him a TJ Ward-esque contract with such a small sample size.  And I would have preferred either to pay that money to Nelson and save some money in the process, or let him play out his rookie deal and re-evaluate his market after the season (long term vs tag).

[XenoMorph]

(05-17-2016, 11:41 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Same guaranteed money as Reggie Nelson, and more money per.

If you compare that to the deals around the league, that's a pretty sizeable deal for a free safety.  The games very best, and younger, are seeing upwards of 6-7 mil per.  But a lot of the guys in the top 10 are right around 3-5 mil.

I have to ask, where is the fire?  Why the rush? 

its a cheap deal and if they pay the gaurenteed this season there is no dead money after.    While he hasn't had much time on the field they do see this kid in practice everyday the last 3 years.

the rush is he is on the last year of his rookie deal.. so if has the solid season they expect from him the pricetag would be higher next offseason and now we don't risk losing him. so they can focus on other positions next offseason

The bengals offered money to nelson his agent messed that all up. So lets not act like the bengals didn't want reggie back. Hes gone now nothing we can do about that except move on and they are prepared to do so.

[OrlandoBengal]

(05-17-2016, 01:14 PM)BobJones4980 Wrote: So what's the big deal? He got a bit more than an old Reggie Nelson and less than Mike Mitchell who isn't even very good.

Reggie Nelson just led the NFL in interceptions, went to the Pro Bowl, and was second team All Pro.  Both he and Mitchell have done significantly more in their careers than Williams.  I like Shawn Williams, and hopefully this works out great, but the guy has four career starts.  Why not see what he can do over an entire season??

[Wes Mantooth]

(05-17-2016, 01:17 PM)Au165 Wrote: Not sure why people would question them when it's a low risk high reward situation.

I look at it strictly from a value perspective.  I don't think we got a good value here.  The production isn't their to warrant the money.  And I'm not sure the potential (reward) is enough to warrant the risk either.

Barring a great season, even a decent to good starting (full) season, probably has him looking at a deal very similar to the one he just signed. Not far off.  So I'm not sure the potential savings all that great. 

[Au165]

(05-17-2016, 01:27 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I look at it strictly from a value perspective.  I don't think we got a good value here.  The production isn't their to warrant the money.  And I'm not sure the potential (reward) is enough to warrant the risk either.

Barring a great season, even a decent to good starting (full) season, probably has him looking at a deal very similar to the one he just signed. Not far off.  So I'm not sure the potential savings all that great. 

Contracts should be based on future outlook not past performance. You are paying them for what they will do not what they did. Past performance may help them gauge future outlook but they also have information we don't have such as practice performance. As for what he would get in FA he would have gotten close to double the guaranteed money with a decent year. Plus keep in mind Hiney badger is about to sign a massive contract which will reset the safety market.

[Wes Mantooth]

(05-17-2016, 01:24 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Reggie Nelson just led the NFL in interceptions, went to the Pro Bowl, and was second team All Pro.  Both he and Mitchell have done significantly more in their careers than Williams.  I like Shawn Williams, and hopefully this works out great, but the guy has four career starts.  Why not see what he can do over an entire season??

Exactly. 

And just to add another name, TJ Ward:

-All rookie team
-2 time Pro Bowler
-2nd team All-Pro
-Superbowl Champ, 2x AFC Champ

This is close to where they set Shawn Williams market value.

Why, exactly?  Where is the fire?

[StLucieBengal]

Value?

They got a premium starter who has shown he can play here. You act like they just signed some crumb bum. Plus he is trending up in development.