Rank our Backup QB

[Brownshoe]

(05-28-2016, 07:02 PM)bengal kitten uk Wrote: You're blinded by your hate.

I'm not saying they're similar.

What I'm saying is that QBs get better over time and deciding after 5 games that he's never going to be good enough is a bit silly.  We had 4 years of people saying Dalton was only fit to be a backup, and yet here we are approaching year 6 and that conversation has been put to bed.  Why do you think AJM won't similarly continue to improve with experience?

I've heard experts say that if you get .500 out of your backup you'll be in good shape when the starter returns and AJM is definitely good enough to do that on this team.  Whether he'd be able to do that on the Browns is a different story - but when your starter can't even manage .500 nobody cares who the backup is.

I'm not blinded by anything. I'm sorry that I'm rational about our players. McCarron hasn't shown that he could do anything except take a team with talent in almost every position around him and beat teams that only could win 5 games in a year. Dalton took a team everyone thought was going to win 2 games and took them to the playoffs. You're the blind one if you think those two things are comparable.

[wolfkaosaun]

(05-27-2016, 08:41 PM)tlotharw Wrote: The Bengals scored 16 points in the second half against Pittsburgh. With Dalton, they have scored a total of 6 points in the second halves of four playoff games combined.  At least McCarron was there because Dalton never has been.

At least Dalton has a winning record as a QB. And neither has a winning record in the playoffs, there's no participation points in the playoffs. Especially when you lose.

You're trying too hard.

Dalton had a lead against the Texans in 2012 in the 2nd quarter. Dalton also had the lead by the halftime in 2013. McCarron never had a lead in a playoff game until the 4th quarter. And they only had the lead for a minute and 38 seconds.

McCarron had 98 of his 212 yards in the 4th quarter. McCarron was terrible throughout that game. 1 interceptions, 3 fumbles, 3 sacks.

Am I being rough on McCarron? A little bit. But if it was Dalton's name up there instead of McCarron you'd be saying the same stuff I am saying.

[Shake n Blake]

Quote:1. First of all , no I didn't say anything disrespectful. Second, my opininion is no more or less "asinine" than yours or anyone elses. 2. I did not say that AJ is on the same level as Dalton. What I am saying is that if given the opportunity to play and develop, AJ could quickly get to or beyond Dalton's level and it wouldn't take him until his fifth year to show something more than average play. 3. Also ,I'm not running for office around here so I'm fine with having a lonely opinion. Yes Dalton made alot of good throws and did it pretty consistently last year for the first time in his career. I hope that continues. As for the playoffs I gave Andy a pass his first two years. When he continued to stink it up for the next two, I was ready to move on. If he can pick up where he left off last year, and be something more than awful on the big stage, I will gladly hop on the bandwagon and be thrilled about being proven wrong.

Sure, Dalton has won some regular season games against good teams, good job, I hope to see more of that.

4. Ok here is my look at Andy's 10 wins of 2014.

@BAL (10-6)- 25-38, 301 with 1TD and 0 INT
GOOD GAME ! AJ Green had 131 YDS and 1 TD

Vs ATL(6-10) - 15-24, 252 with 1TD and 0 INT
Andy executed run heavy, dink and dunk fest well. Game manager type performance. Matt Ryan threw 3 INT. AJ Green not on the boxscore.

Vs TENN(2-14) - 15 - 23, 169 with 0 TD and 1 INT
Game manager type performance. Tenn was lousy Jake Locker threw 2 INT. AJ Green had 102 YDS

Vs BAL(10-6) - 21 - 28, 266 with 0 TD and 1INT
I'm going to say good game despite the pick. Nic game winning drive at the end.AJ Green not on the boxscore

Vs JAX(3-13) - 19 - 31, 233 with 2 TD and 2 INT
Game manager type performance. Hill ran wild and Jax was terrible. AJ Green had 44 YDS and 1 TD

@ NO(7-9) - 16 - 22, 220 with 3 TD and 0 INT
Good game against so-so NO team. Hill ran wild again. AJ Green had 127 YDS and 1 TD

@ HOU(9-7) - 24 - 35, 233 with 1 TD and 1 INT
Game manager type performance against Mallet led Texans. AJ Green had 121 YDS.

@ TB(2-14) - 19 - 27, 176 with 1 TD and 3 INT
Bad game against bad Bucs. AJ Green had 57 YDS and 1 TD

@ CLE(7-9) - 14 - 24, 117 with 0 TD and 1 INT
Bad game against Manziel led Browns. AJ Green had 49 YDS. Hill and Gio carried the Offense in this one

Vs DEN(12-4) - 17 - 26, 146 with 2 TD and 1 INT
Game manager type performance. Hill ran wild. Manning threw 4 INT. AJ Green was a decoy.

So here is "how" Andy Dalton won 10 games in 2014....

3 "good" games.
5 "game manager" wins.
2 wins where he won despite being terrible.

Also, not counting the decoy game against Denver, AJ Green played in 7 of those wins and had 100 YDS and/or a touchdown in 6 of those wins.

This is why "people like me" insinuate that Dalton is carried by a talented roster and why 2014 does not "put to bed" the fact that Andy Dalton has been a game manager at best for the first four seasons of his career.

Now as for 2015. Andy Dalton was mostly VERY good and I like that but I need to see more before I can forget what he has been for 4 years. As for the numbers that Andy and AJ were on pace for....5th year man Dalton's look very good and 5th game man Mccarron's look alot like Dalton in years 1 through 4.

1. Maybe it's just me, but I think comparing a 2nd round pick with a resume like Dalton's to a 5th round pick who has accomplished zilch at the NFL level is very disrespectful of Dalton and his accomplishments. Any time you take a stance that goes against the consensus and you back it only with biased speculation and no facts to support your argument, that's the definition of asinine to me. I at least try to back my claims with evidence.

2. Right. You're not saying Dalton is on McCarron's level now, just that he will - rather easily - surpass the level of a QB who was in the MVP discussion for 12 weeks and posted an all-time Bengals record 106.2 passer rating. Okey-doke.

3. Fair enough, but if you're going to make such bold claims with little to no evidence to back that claim, expect to get called out.

4. I count 9 games where Dalton was a key factor in us winning. Where he managed to lead a very good offense despite an almost complete lack of receiving talent around him. He posted an 88.0 rating in these 10 games. Completed 67% of his throws. Averaged 7.66 YPA. Amazing numbers considering Sanu was his #1 target for 5 games and we were trying guys like Greg Little. 

The fact that you just said that McCarron could easily get beyond Dalton's current level is by far the most ridiculous thing you've said though. I honestly can't take you seriously now. You've made your anti-Dalton bias abundantly clear, and your optimism regarding McCarron is through the roof...with no evidence to support it. Again, the kid has won 2 games - against a pair of 5-11 teams. Btw, if you classify both McC and Dalton as game managers, what makes you think McC will "easily" surpass Dalton's current level (which you seem to begrudgingly admit is not as a game manager)?

['E']

(05-28-2016, 07:41 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: [quote pid='223266' dateline='1464469868']


Just ignore Dalton had almost no weapons that year. The only person he did have was an injured AJ green. That's why Green had those numbers. Plus on some games that we lost/tied Dalton played great, and the rest of the team played horrible. Even people like Tom Brady looks like game managers when they have no weapons. Just look at how he played in the game he didn't have Gronk in 2013. Game manager numbers as you would put it. Dalton has been a solid QB throughout his career, even when he didn't have much to work with like the vast majority of his career.

Dalton had AJ Green who was healthy enough to be effective for most of the season. He also had Sanu, Gio, Hill, and Gresham to work with. Not world beaters by any stretch, and thin at WR, but not as bad as you would like to make it sound.

Ok lets look at the 5 losses and the tie in 2014.

@NE( 12-4) - 15 - 24, 204 with 2 TDS and 0 INT
Game manager performance in a game that was never close. AJ Green had 81 YDS and 1TD

Vs CAR (7-8-1) - 33 - 43, 323 with 2 TD and 2 INT
I'm going to give Andy a good grade on this game despite the two picks. No AJ Green.

@IND(11-5) - 18 - 38, 126 with 0 TD and 0 INT
No AJ Green, but how can I call this anything but terrible ? No points on the board.

Vs CLE(7-9) - 10 - 33, 86 with 0 TD and 3 INT
Rock bottom bad in this one. AJ Green had 23 YDS on 10 targets

Vs PIT(11-5) - 21 - 29, 302 with 2 TD and 0 INT
This is a good game by Andy. The defense was a no show in the 4th quarter. AJ Green had 224 YDS and 1 TD

@PIT(11-5) - 27 - 38, 244 with 2 TD and 2 INT
Game manager performance. I can't find a reason to grade him higher than that with the 2 picks. AJ Green had 82 YDS and 0 TD.

So out of these six non-wins we have 2 good 2 bad and 2 game manager performances.

On the season as a whole that makes 5 good games, 7 game manager performances, and 4 absolute stink bombs.

On you final point I will agree that Dalton has been mostly solid through his first 4 seasons. And sometimes terrible, and rarely above average.

To be fair, I will add that Andy was mostly Very good in 2015.

[Brownshoe]

Dalton had a hurt Green who was out/hurt most of the season, Sanu as the #1 (who is a #3 at best), and Gresham who can't even start on a team with a no name TE in front of him. Gio was hurt that year too, and didn't produce that much. Dalton had to deal with one of the worst weapons in the league that year. Easily.

Dalton played very well vs NE. You're just looking at a stat sheet. He was whooping NE's ass and his weapons shit the bed for him.

A lot of the games you had him as a "game manager" there wasn't nothing he could do, because he had no weapons. Sanu is easily shut out by good corners, and Green wasn't able to give 100% a lot of the games.

A ton of games the first few seasons of Daltons career he was trailing going into the half, and won the game in the 2nd half. He's been clutch his whole career. He's been much more than a game manager that you try to make him out to be. Hell the first season he actually had decent weapons he had 33 TDs and 4400 yards. That is no way shape or form a game manager.

['E']

(05-28-2016, 11:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Maybe it's just me, but I think comparing a 2nd round pick with a resume like Dalton's to a 5th round pick who has accomplished zilch at the NFL level is very disrespectful of Dalton and his accomplishments. Any time you take a stance that goes against the consensus and you back it only with biased speculation and no facts to support your argument, that's the definition of asinine to me. I at least try to back my claims with evidence.

2. Right. You're not saying Dalton is on McCarron's level now, just that he will - rather easily - surpass the level of a QB who was in the MVP discussion for 12 weeks and posted an all-time Bengals record 106.2 passer rating. Okey-doke.

3. Fair enough, but if you're going to make such bold claims with little to no evidence to back that claim, expect to get called out.

4. I count 9 games where Dalton was a key factor in us winning. Where he managed to lead a very good offense despite an almost complete lack of receiving talent around him. He posted an 88.0 rating in these 10 games. Completed 67% of his throws. Averaged 7.66 YPA. Amazing numbers considering Sanu was his #1 target for 5 games and we were trying guys like Greg Little. 

The fact that you just said that McCarron could easily get beyond Dalton's current level is by far the most ridiculous thing you've said though. I honestly can't take you seriously now. You've made your anti-Dalton bias abundantly clear, and your optimism regarding McCarron is through the roof...with no evidence to support it. Again, the kid has won 2 games - against a pair of 5-11 teams. Btw, if you classify both McC and Dalton as game managers, what makes you think McC will "easily" surpass Dalton's current level (which you seem to begrudgingly admit is not as a game manager)?

1. Ok. What round these guys were drafted in does not equate to an on field accomplishment. As for Daltons resume, outside of 2015's run it's not all that special. I'm still waiting on your evidence that Dalton was anything more than a game manager in 2014.

2. Actually, what I said is that he COULD if given the opportunity. But honestly, that opportunity is highly unlikely to come, so yes it is speculation based on my personal opinion.

3. Call me out as you wish. I gave an opinion. This is a message board not a court of law.

4. Which 9 games ?...How was Andy a key factor in these 9 games that you speak of ?
I see 6 wins against sub .500 teams. Another win against Ryan Mallett. And another where Peyton Manning threw 4 INTs..All bigger factors than what was contributed by Mr. Dalton.

Again, I said he COULD rise to or surpass Dalton's level IF given the opportunity. I feel strongly that he could, but I don't claim it as a certainty or a fact. As to why I believe what I have stated, It is based on what I have seen in both players games. Yes I speculate that Mccarron could develop into a very similar player as Dalton, with the difference being that I see more poise in AJ when things get tough. I admit it's a bold position to take so early in AJs career, and Andy could kill it next year and win the Super Bowl. Good. I hope he does. But so far he has shown himself to be a post season flop 4 times in 4 tries so forgive me if I speculate about what COULD be.

[wolfkaosaun]

[quote pid='223318' dateline='1464499070']

1. Ok. What round these guys were drafted in does not equate to an on field accomplishment. As for Daltons resume, outside of 2015's run it's not all that special.
[/quote]

In 2013, Dalton ranked 8th in the NFL in passing yards. Ranked 3rd in passing TDs. Set franchise record for passing TDs.

In 2012 he ranked 7th in the NFL in passing TDs. 3rd in the AFC.

Andy Dalton is one of two QBs in NFL history to have thrown over 3,000 yards in his first 5 seasons. The other is Peyton Manning.

Also had 18,000 yards in his first 5 seasons.

In 2015, even though it was cut short, Dalton ranked 28th all time with best QB rating in a season. 8 of his 12 games he had above a 100 QB rating. Sure, you can throw in his game against Pitt at the end but that's hardly fair.

Dalton is just barely behind Drew Brees and Peyton Manning with the most passing TDs within their first 5 years.

Dalton also has the most road wins within his first 5 seasons in the NFL with 25 road wins. 3 more than both Big Ben and Matt Ryan. And he didn't even play the rest of the 2015 season.

Dalton has also taken this team to 4 playoff appearances. Technically 5 but he sadly didn't get to play. If you only count 4, that's as many as Ken Anderson has taken the Bengals throughout his career. If you include 2015, that means he only has to take them to the playoffs one more year to have the same amount of playoff appearances as Boomer and Anderson.

Dalton has a resume that exceeds 2015.

[Savagehenry54]

(05-27-2016, 07:56 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Campbell didn't play for us, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. What Fitz did was post a 70.0 passer rating and an Akili Smith-like 5.1 YPA here. Dude had Housh, Kelly, and a hobbled Chad. Not the best but I wouldn't say the weapons were turrible. At least not enough to justify how awful he was. 

Fitz got an opportunity in Buffalo because Trent Edwards got injured. He then ran with that opportunity and posted great numbers. So to say he got opportunities elsewhere because of what he did in Cincy is kinda silly considering he was still a backup when he left. Buffalo is where he made a name for himself.

I like McCarron and I think he's the best backup we've had since Kitna, but it boggles my mind why people think he's clutch. Kid fumbled away the game in Denver (costing us a BYE) and crapped his pants for 3.5 quarters vs Pittsburgh. You slap a Dalton name plate on his jersey and people would be ripping him for a choke job fumble in Denver and ripping him for 3 fumbles and an INT against Pittsburgh. He only hung 16 on an absolute joke of a defense. With all these weapons? That's clutch? Pfff...

I'm not sure where I'd rank Mac as a backup. Top 10 for now probably, but there are some good ones out there other than McCarron and it doesn't seem like some on here are willing to acknowledge that. I'd say there's around a dozen backups that you could at least make an argument that they're as solid or more so at the moment.

Maybe I thought Campbell for the browns. Fitz got an opportunity to back up Edwards did he not? How is that not an opportunity, bet he got more money from the bills too. Cuz he did a decent job in a terrible situation. Kelly? The squirrel dance dude. Lmao You're the king of throwing out names of junk players to fatten the "list" of "talent" a given qb had to work with. A hobbled Chad....really dude?!

Your mind gets boggled easy bud. Putting the ball in the end zone when it mattered most is clutch, plain and simple. And keeping your poise when you're not having a great day prior to that makes it even more so, not less.

As for the Denver game, that Denver defense pushed cam Newton's shit in too.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-29-2016, 09:29 AM)Savagehenry54 Wrote: 1. Maybe I thought Campbell for the browns.  2. Fitz got an opportunity to back up Edwards did he not?  How is that not an opportunity, bet he got more money from the bills too. Cuz he did a decent job in a terrible situation.   3. Kelly?  The squirrel dance dude. Lmao You're the king of throwing out names of junk players to fatten the "list" of "talent" a given qb had to work with. A hobbled Chad....really dude?!

4. Your mind gets boggled easy bud.  Putting the ball in the end zone when it mattered most is clutch, plain and simple.  And keeping your poise when you're not having a great day prior to that makes it even more so, not less.

As for the Denver game, that Denver defense pushed cam Newton's shit in too.

1. Yeah, Campbell did play for the Browns, a year before he didn't play for us. He wasn't exactly good there, but who is?

2. An opportunity as a backup is the "opportunities" you were referring to? He was already a backup so I'm not sure how this proves that other teams were impressed by Fitzy's awful season with the Bengals. The opportunities he's been getting (as a starter) with the Texans and Jets are thanks to his good seasons with the Bills. He did get a bigger contract with the Bills, but not until after he proved himself as a starter - with the Bills.

3. I was talking about Reggie Kelly. Not Kelly Washington, who was long gone by that point. He also had Housh, Chad, Chris Henry, Utecht, and Caldwell. He had Benson at RB. More than enough to work with, IMO.

4. So I guess you thought Russell Wilson had a clutch performance in the 2014 NFC championship? Dude completed less than half his passes, threw 4 INTs and took 5 sacks. But he did throw the game winner in OT. IMO, that was a miserable choke job of a performance in a playoff game. 

Sure, the last play was clutch, but the overall performance was the opposite of clutch. Had Wilson not been so completely awful all game, the Seahawks would've won by 20+. But I'm supposed to believe that just because he pulled himself together for a play or 2, that his performance was somehow "clutch"? Same deal with McCarron. We would've smoked the Steelers had he even played average all game. 

Our defense was clutch. Kept our inept offense in the game the whole way through. Forced turnovers, sacks and 3 and outs all game. Kept giving the offense ample opportunities and good field position. AJ leading the offense to 16 points and countless stalled drives while coughing up multiple turnovers wasn't clutch by my definition. 

I don't care if he had a couple good drives (that were greatly aided by field position and Jeremy Hill). Had he not wet the bed so much for 3+ quarters, we would've won this one easily. He's as much to blame as anyone for us not having a playoff win. I give him some slack for it being his 5th start, but it doesn't make it any less true.

[BengalChris]

(05-27-2016, 07:56 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Campbell didn't play for us, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. What Fitz did was post a 70.0 passer rating and an Akili Smith-like 5.1 YPA here. Dude had Housh, Kelly, and a hobbled Chad. Not the best but I wouldn't say the weapons were turrible. At least not enough to justify how awful he was. 

Fitz got an opportunity in Buffalo because Trent Edwards got injured. He then ran with that opportunity and posted great numbers. So to say he got opportunities elsewhere because of what he did in Cincy is kinda silly considering he was still a backup when he left. Buffalo is where he made a name for himself.

I like McCarron and I think he's the best backup we've had since Kitna, but it boggles my mind why people think he's clutch. Kid fumbled away the game in Denver (costing us a BYE) and crapped his pants for 3.5 quarters vs Pittsburgh. You slap a Dalton name plate on his jersey and people would be ripping him for a choke job fumble in Denver and ripping him for 3 fumbles and an INT against Pittsburgh. He only hung 16 on an absolute joke of a defense. With all these weapons? That's clutch? Pfff...

I'm not sure where I'd rank Mac as a backup. Top 10 for now probably, but there are some good ones out there other than McCarron and it doesn't seem like some on here are willing to acknowledge that. I'd say there's around a dozen backups that you could at least make an argument that they're as solid or more so at the moment.

Agreed on the Kitna comparison. McCarron was an upgrade over what we have had for awhile.

People consider him clutch more than not clutch because of two National Championships, his 0.5 quarter against Pittsburgh gave us the lead (latest lead in a playoff game that we've had since 1990, and he seems to stand in there. Those first 3.5 quarters against Pittsburgh weren't very good, well, they were downright awful. I really think the conversation would be different had Hill not fumbled that ball.

McCarron is better than most backup QBs, but he's not like having Steve Young or Aaron Rogers waiting on the bench. I'd rank him the in the 9-12 range at this point. Much higher than I ever would have ranked Josh Johnson.

[Shake n Blake]

McCarron FanBoy Wrote:1. Ok. What round these guys were drafted in does not equate to an on field accomplishment. As for Daltons resume, outside of 2015's run it's not all that special. I'm still waiting on your evidence that Dalton was anything more than a game manager in 2014.

2. Actually, what I said is that he COULD if given the opportunity. But honestly, that opportunity is highly unlikely to come, so yes it is speculation based on my personal opinion.

Call me out as you wish. I gave an opinion. This is a message board not a court of law.

3. Which 9 games ?...How was Andy a key factor in these 9 games that you speak of ?
I see 6 wins against sub .500 teams. Another win against Ryan Mallett. And another where Peyton Manning threw 4 INTs..All bigger factors than what was contributed by Mr. Dalton.

Again, I said he COULD rise to or surpass Dalton's level IF given the opportunity. I feel strongly that he could, but I don't claim it as a certainty or a fact. As to why I believe what I have stated, It is based on what I have seen in both players games. Yes I speculate that Mccarron could  develop into a very similar player as Dalton, with the difference being that I see more poise in AJ when things get tough. I admit it's a bold position to take so early in AJs career, and Andy could kill it next year and win the Super Bowl. Good. I hope he does. But so far he has shown himself to be a post season flop 4 times in 4 tries so forgive me if I speculate about what COULD be.

1. Wolfkaosun gave a great answer for this one.

2. Why is it highly unlikely to come? If we have a prospect on our bench that is superior to an MVP candidate that broke the Bengals record for passer rating in a season, teams would be beating down the door for him. If "E" from Bengals message boards can see the immense potential, I'm sure 31 other teams can see it as well. So why do you think McCarron will never see the opportunity? Are NFL teams just not as smart as you? 

3. @BAL (10-6)- 25-38, 301 with 1TD and 0 INT
The stat line says it all.

Vs ATL(6-10) - 15-24, 252 with 1TD and 0 INT 
10.5 YPA? With no AJ Green?

Vs TENN(2-14) - 15 - 23, 169 with 0 TD and 1 INT 
Dalton was very crisp and kept several scoring drives going. Gio bobbled a good pass that was picked off. Dalton caught a TD.

Vs BAL(10-6) - 21 - 28, 266 with 0 TD and 1INT
You left out how Dalton rushed for 2 TDs here. Clear MVP.

Vs JAX(3-13) - 19 - 31, 233 with 2 TD and 2 INT
Not a sexy statline, but helped lead the offense to 33 points. 

@ NO(7-9) - 16 - 22, 220 with 3 TD and 0 INT
Shredded the Saints without AJ Green. The 143.9 passer rating was the highest NO allowed all season.

@ HOU(9-7) - 24 - 35, 233 with 1 TD and 1 INT
Completed 68.6% of his throws and on 3rd downs, he went 5 for 7 with 5 first downs. Led offense to 22 points on the road against a tough D.

@ TB(2-14) - 19 - 27, 176 with 1 TD and 3 INT
Dalton had a bad game here. With the flu. Luckily the Bucs were an awful team so it didn't matter.

@ CLE(7-9) - 14 - 24, 117 with 0 TD and 1 INT
This was back when the Browns owned Green and Dalton. Luckily we were playing Manziel.

Vs DEN(12-4) - 17 - 26, 146 with 2 TD and 1 INT
Essentially no AJ Green. Dalton ran the option well (6 carries, 25 yards). Dalton was key on 2 TD drives. Rushing for 19 yards and throwing a TD on one. Then he went 2/2 with 30 yards and a TD on the other. Posted a 93.1 rating against a great defense despite a clear lack at receiver.

I never said Dalton was THE key to why we won 10 games. I said he was a "key factor". Clearly he was. Now can we look at McCarron's games on an individual basis? You probably don't want to do that.

[tlotharw]

(05-29-2016, 12:32 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Wolfkaosun gave a great answer for this one.

2. Why is it highly unlikely to come? If we have a prospect on our bench that is superior to an MVP candidate that broke the Bengals record for passer rating in a season, teams would be beating down the door for him. If "E" from Bengals message boards can see the immense potential, I'm sure 31 other teams can see it as well. So why do you think McCarron will never see the opportunity? Are NFL teams just not as smart as you? 

3. @BAL (10-6)- 25-38, 301 with 1TD and 0 INT
The stat line says it all.

Vs ATL(6-10) - 15-24, 252 with 1TD and 0 INT 
10.5 YPA? With no AJ Green?

Vs TENN(2-14) - 15 - 23, 169 with 0 TD and 1 INT 
Dalton was very crisp and kept several scoring drives going. Gio bobbled a good pass that was picked off. Dalton caught a TD.

Vs BAL(10-6) - 21 - 28, 266 with 0 TD and 1INT
You left out how Dalton rushed for 2 TDs here. Clear MVP.

Vs JAX(3-13) - 19 - 31, 233 with 2 TD and 2 INT
Not a sexy statline, but helped lead the offense to 33 points. 

@ NO(7-9) - 16 - 22, 220 with 3 TD and 0 INT
Shredded the Saints without AJ Green. The 143.9 passer rating was the highest NO allowed all season.

@ HOU(9-7) - 24 - 35, 233 with 1 TD and 1 INT
Completed 68.6% of his throws and on 3rd downs, he went 5 for 7 with 5 first downs. Led offense to 22 points on the road against a tough D.

@ TB(2-14) - 19 - 27, 176 with 1 TD and 3 INT
Dalton had a bad game here. With the flu. Luckily the Bucs were an awful team so it didn't matter.

@ CLE(7-9) - 14 - 24, 117 with 0 TD and 1 INT
This was back when the Browns owned Green and Dalton. Luckily we were playing Manziel.

Vs DEN(12-4) - 17 - 26, 146 with 2 TD and 1 INT
Essentially no AJ Green. Dalton ran the option well (6 carries, 25 yards). Dalton was key on 2 TD drives. Rushing for 19 yards and throwing a TD on one. Then he went 2/2 with 30 yards and a TD on the other. Posted a 93.1 rating against a great defense despite a clear lack at receiver.

I never said Dalton was THE key to why we won 10 games. I said he was a "key factor". Clearly he was. Now can we look at McCarron's games on an individual basis? You probably don't want to do that.

Agreed he was a key factor in those wins. Can we agree he was a key factor in the four face-plants in the playoff games?

[wolfkaosaun]

(05-29-2016, 12:49 PM)tlotharw Wrote: Agreed he was a key factor in those wins.  Can we agree he was a key factor in the four face-plants in the playoff games?

No one is denying that Dalton was a factor in those. Because he certainly was. Sure, other plays and coaches are brought into talks about games such as Gresham and Gruden.

But can we also agree that McCarron was a key factor why that offense did absolutely nothing through 3 quarters in the playoff game?

[Brownshoe]

(05-29-2016, 12:49 PM)tlotharw Wrote: Agreed he was a key factor in those wins.  Can we agree he was a key factor in the four face-plants in the playoff games?

He was a factor, but not they key factor. There were only a couple of players who even had decent games in all 4 of our playoff losses when Dalton played.

[tlotharw]

(05-29-2016, 04:41 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: He was a factor, but not they key factor. There were only a couple of players who even had decent games in all 4 of our playoff losses when Dalton played.

Dalton, the starting quarterback, the most important position on a football team, has thrown 1 touchdown pass and 6 interceptions and lost 2 fumbles in four playoff games. He is without any contest the number one factor in those 4 playoff losses. That is historically bad. Who do you think was the key factor in those losses?

[tlotharw]

(05-29-2016, 03:47 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: No one is denying that Dalton was a factor in those. Because he certainly was. Sure, other plays and coaches are brought into talks about games such as Gresham and Gruden.

But can we also agree that McCarron was a key factor why that offense did absolutely nothing through 3 quarters in the playoff game?

Yep, I agree.

[Brownshoe]

(05-29-2016, 05:14 PM)tlotharw Wrote: Dalton, the starting quarterback, the most important position on a football team, has thrown 1 touchdown pass and 6 interceptions and lost 2 fumbles in four playoff games.  He is without any contest the number one factor in those 4 playoff losses.  That is historically bad.   Who do you think was the key factor in those losses?

The whole team other than a couple of people are terrible in the playoffs when Dalton played. DL - played like shit, secondary - played like shit, LBs - played like shit, OL - played like shit, WR core - played like shit, TEs - played like shit, RBs - played like shit, everyone played like shit.

['E']

(05-29-2016, 12:32 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Wolfkaosun gave a great answer for this one.

2. Why is it highly unlikely to come? If we have a prospect on our bench that is superior to an MVP candidate that broke the Bengals record for passer rating in a season, teams would be beating down the door for him. If "E" from Bengals message boards can see the immense potential, I'm sure 31 other teams can see it as well. So why do you think McCarron will never see the opportunity? Are NFL teams just not as smart as you? 

3. @BAL (10-6)- 25-38, 301 with 1TD and 0 INT
The stat line says it all.

Vs ATL(6-10) - 15-24, 252 with 1TD and 0 INT 
10.5 YPA? With no AJ Green?

Vs TENN(2-14) - 15 - 23, 169 with 0 TD and 1 INT 
Dalton was very crisp and kept several scoring drives going. Gio bobbled a good pass that was picked off. Dalton caught a TD.

Vs BAL(10-6) - 21 - 28, 266 with 0 TD and 1INT
You left out how Dalton rushed for 2 TDs here. Clear MVP.

Vs JAX(3-13) - 19 - 31, 233 with 2 TD and 2 INT
Not a sexy statline, but helped lead the offense to 33 points. 

@ NO(7-9) - 16 - 22, 220 with 3 TD and 0 INT
Shredded the Saints without AJ Green. The 143.9 passer rating was the highest NO allowed all season.

@ HOU(9-7) - 24 - 35, 233 with 1 TD and 1 INT
Completed 68.6% of his throws and on 3rd downs, he went 5 for 7 with 5 first downs. Led offense to 22 points on the road against a tough D.

@ TB(2-14) - 19 - 27, 176 with 1 TD and 3 INT
Dalton had a bad game here. With the flu. Luckily the Bucs were an awful team so it didn't matter.

@ CLE(7-9) - 14 - 24, 117 with 0 TD and 1 INT
This was back when the Browns owned Green and Dalton. Luckily we were playing Manziel.

Vs DEN(12-4) - 17 - 26, 146 with 2 TD and 1 INT
Essentially no AJ Green. Dalton ran the option well (6 carries, 25 yards). Dalton was key on 2 TD drives. Rushing for 19 yards and throwing a TD on one. Then he went 2/2 with 30 yards and a TD on the other. Posted a 93.1 rating against a great defense despite a clear lack at receiver.

I never said Dalton was THE key to why we won 10 games. I said he was a "key factor". Clearly he was. Now can we look at McCarron's games on an individual basis? You probably don't want to do that.

I'm gonna keep this short because this thing could go round and round forever.

1. I'm sure he did. Thanks.

2.It's highly unlikely to come ,because the Bengals have too much invested in Dalton and there is no way that they will bench him just because the young backup has a promising look about him. Also once again, I didn't say Mccarron is superior to Dalton. I said he could be if given the opportunity. Write that down and pin it to your refrigerator so I don't have to remind you again. I also never said he had "immense potential", I merely said he could become equal to or greater than Dalton. I also didn't say he will "never" get an opportunity. I said it is highly unlikely, and was referring only to the Cincy position.

How do you know that teams weren't calling about Mccarron ?....I suppose I should have guessed that 'Shake n Blake' from Bengals message board was an NFL insider with the scoop on everything.

I've already stated my case on those games and clearly Andy Dalton needed and got a great deal of support in reaching those 10 wins. A handful of cupcakes on the schedule didn't hurt either.

[Brownshoe]

For McCarron to be "equal to or greater than Dalton" he would have to have immense potential.

We know that McCarron didn't get any calls from any other team... because this day and age you will hear about every little detail that goes on with even the most irrelevant players. You hear about who's getting tried out, who's talking about trade deals, you hear about everything, because of twitter and social media. Hell we even heard that Dalton had missing luggage during the off-season.

Your case on how Dalton was a game manager was bad. You just looked at the stat sheet and didn't actually look at what happened in the game. You also gave the piss poor excuse of "cupcake" games. Like every single QB in NFL history didn't have a handful of those. Hell, McCarron played half of his games against even worse teams, so that really doesn't help your argument

You also assumed that our defense (which the whole defense had less sacks in 2014 than just JJ Watt) played well. We had a mediocre defensive play that year, we had one of the worst weapons in the league, but Dalton was still being carried for those 10 wins... lol.

[Shake n Blake]

dude who picked a name that can't be quoted for some reason Wrote:1. I'm gonna keep this short because this thing could go round and round forever.

2. I'm sure he did. Thanks.

3. It's highly unlikely to come ,because the Bengals have too much invested in Dalton and there is no way that they will bench him just because the young backup has a promising look about him. 4. Also once again, I didn't say Mccarron is superior to Dalton. I said he could be if given the opportunity. Write that down and pin it to your refrigerator so I don't have to remind you again. I also never said he had "immense potential", I merely said he could become equal to or greater than Dalton. I also didn't say he will "never" get an opportunity. I said it is highly unlikely, and was referring only to the Cincy position.

5. How do you know that teams weren't calling about Mccarron ?....I suppose I should have guessed that 'Shake n Blake' from Bengals message board was an NFL insider with the scoop on everything.

6. I've already stated my case on those games and clearly Andy Dalton needed and got a great deal of support in reaching those 10 wins. A handful of cupcakes on the schedule didn't hurt either.

1. You're right, it could, so this is my last post on it. You're not really addressing my points anyway.

2. I figured you wouldn't have much to say on that post, considering it highlighted many of Dalton's accomplishments. 

3. Dalton's contract has very little guaranteed money and the Bengals could dump him right now with very little problem. So there goes that argument. Although facts seem to have little to no effect on you or your theories.

4. You're insinuating that he's a superior prospect by saying that he could quickly and easily surpass Dalton's current level. These are your words, not mine. Own them. Now if McCarron is a superior prospect - or could be - then multiple teams would be offering multiple high draft picks. You don't think the Bengals would trade Mac for multiple good picks? Heck, the most stubborn man on the planet gave in for a 1st and a 2nd with Palmer. You don't think he'd give up McCarron for something similar or even close to? Fwiw, I fully expect you to avoid this question. Again.

5. It's called the internet. For example, when the Broncos were interested in Kaepernick and Sanchez, it was all over the place. There wasn't even a hint of a rumor that any team had any interest at all in McCarron. It's not ironclad proof that no teams were interested, but you would think there would be a leak if some team sniffed around. Either from someone around the Bengals or from the team that was interested. And a dozen or so teams should be interested if McCarron is as good as you claim he could be. That's a lot of teams keeping it close to the vest...or very little interest. Take your pick.

6. Funny you knock Dalton for "beating cupcakes" in 2014 when McCarron's 2 career victories came against 5-11 teams. Nevermind the wins against the Broncos, Texans and Ravens (twice). Or all of Dalton's other career wins against great teams.