Hall and Bengals Still Talking Return

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-07-2016, 08:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hell, I'd take him over Dre.

Same but i hope Dennard and WJ3 play lights out and make it a non-issue. Hall would be great depth for us if healthy.

He deserves a ring after all he has done and went through. Dude was a great CB for us.

[*bengalfan74*]

(06-09-2016, 05:39 AM)bfine32 Wrote: You posted 4 stats and 3 of them were attributed the the entire defensive backfield that included Leon. The only stat you could contribute to Dre was that teams were same enough to stay away from the rest of the DBs.

Our Dline was pretty good, so that means Peko is good

Our oline is good, so that means Bodine is good.

You can consider Dre good if you want just don't look for someone that watches the games to agree with you. Like I said I hope he becomes All Pro this year but he has done nothing in his first 4 to suggest he will. 

I agree with you mostly bfine,

Kirkpatrick was our weak link in the secondary last season no matter how you chop it up. Waaayyyy to inconsistent ! I couldn't tell you how many plays I watched him let a receiver go to the safety, only problem was there was no safety to pick up coverage. Biting on double moves to often, missed tackles, the list goes on.

Oh he made some great plays for sure and at times looked like an all pro. Then the next series he was in a different playbook than the rest of the D.

ALL CB's are going to get beat on a play here and a play there, that doesn't bother me as much as a 4th year player not knowing whether the D is in zone or man coverage.

[XenoMorph]

(06-09-2016, 01:56 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I agree with you mostly bfine,

Kirkpatrick was our weak link in the secondary last season no matter how you chop it up. Waaayyyy to inconsistent ! I couldn't tell you how many plays I watched him let a receiver go to the safety, only problem was there was no safety to pick up coverage.

Do we have a way to know when that's on Dre and when that's on the Saftey outside of the coaches telling us what the play was?

[*bengalfan74*]

(06-09-2016, 02:05 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Do we have a way to know when that's on Dre and when that's on the Saftey outside of the coaches telling us what the play was?

Oh I wouldn't be to surprised to find out a couple times was the safety, but I'd guess more often than not is was Dre.

Just my opinion of course.

[Au165]

(06-09-2016, 02:15 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Oh I wouldn't be to surprised to find out a couple times was the safety, but I'd guess more often than not is was Dre.

Just my opinion of course.

One of the major flaws of PFF is this very problem. Coaches have pointed it out that it really is impossible to tell who screwed up on something like that if they aren't in the film room all week talking about adjustments for personnel and formations. They could negative grade Dre here, when it should have been Reggie or George.

[*bfine32*]

(06-09-2016, 02:05 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Do we have a way to know when that's on Dre and when that's on the Saftey outside of the coaches telling us what the play was?

Folks in the know can tell this. Coverages and individual responsibilities in those coverages are all pretty standard and it is the offenses job to try to exploit the best matchup to include drawing safeties in and out of the box and to different sides of the field.

Pat Kirwan is probably one of the best at explaining this. I haven't read his book, but I doo listen to him and Jim Miller on Sirius regularlly and they reall break it down.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-09-2016, 03:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Folks in the know can tell this. Coverages and individual responsibilities in those coverages are all pretty standard and it is the offenses job to try to exploit the best matchup to include drawing safeties in and out of the box and to different sides of the field.

Pat Kirwan is probably one of the best at explaining this. I haven't read his book, but I doo listen to him and Jim Miller on Sirius regularlly and they reall break it down.

I know Fred cannot see it but i sure saw Dre getting beat.

[wolfkaosaun]

(06-09-2016, 05:39 AM)bfine32 Wrote: You posted 4 stats and 3 of them were attributed the the entire defensive backfield that included Leon. The only stat you could contribute to Dre was that teams were same enough to stay away from the rest of the DBs.

Our Dline was pretty good, so that means Peko is good

Our oline is good, so that means Bodine is good.

You can consider Dre good if you want just don't look for someone that watches the games to agree with you. Like I said I hope he becomes All Pro this year but he has done nothing in his first 4 to suggest he will. 

I never said he was good. I'm disputing the "Dre Kirkaptrick was in the bottom 3 CBs last year".
Never once did I say he was good, I'm arguing that he's not terrible. He's solid.

(06-09-2016, 05:44 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Dre just finished his 4th season in the NFL

Was referring to "excuses" of him being a rookie. 2013 was when he started getting playing time. 2014 was when he first actually started to get starts.

(06-09-2016, 11:37 AM)bfine32 Wrote: hey, I found it for ya:

Yes, but like I said PFF has gone downhill lately. They don't show anything with CBs anymore, even with memberships.
They don't show completion percentages allowed.
Don't show how many TDs allowed.
I mean, look at some of the weekly rankings during the season. They take away -0.9 for penalties alone.
I mean, look at the game for Baltimore. He was given a -3.4 grade. Sure, he had a TD against him. But only allowed 4 passes thrown his way for a mere 6.6 yards a target. Plus he even had a pass breakup and 4 tackles.

I'm mostly pointing these things out because PFF isn't giving us the full story anymore. And it's beyond annoying, especially for someone who paid for membership. They've gotten rid of a lot of things that made them great and now just say "Here's their ranking" for numerous players.

[Luvnit2]

(06-09-2016, 03:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Folks in the know can tell this. Coverages and individual responsibilities in those coverages are all pretty standard and it is the offenses job to try to exploit the best matchup to include drawing safeties in and out of the box and to different sides of the field.

Pat Kirwan is probably one of the best at explaining this. I haven't read his book, but I doo listen to him and Jim Miller on Sirius regularlly and they reall break it down.

I get it, Dre is not perfect, but he as not close to as bad as you are making him out to be. I don't care about PFF, I care about what our coaching staff, Katie and Tobin think about players. They have their own evaluation system.

I know you think you are an expert, but sorry I trust the coaches. There is no way the Bengals pick up the 5th year option (like 8 million dollars I think) if he as bad as you try and project. Our organization is as good as any in the NFL at making  great cap decisions (money spent) in relation to talent.

[XenoMorph]

(06-09-2016, 03:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Folks in the know can tell this. Coverages and individual responsibilities in those coverages are all pretty standard and it is the offenses job to try to exploit the best matchup to include drawing safeties in and out of the box and to different sides of the field.

Pat Kirwan is probably one of the best at explaining this. I haven't read his book, but I doo listen to him and Jim Miller on Sirius regularlly and they reall break it down.

if our defense is that simple time to fire the DC....


I get you don't like Dre for what ever reason you think dennard and WGIII are better dispite not doing anything yet...

And apparently forget guys like hall getting beat badly on several plays here and there too.... especially his first few years starting on the field.

[*bfine32*]

(06-10-2016, 10:41 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: if our defense is that simple time to fire the DC....


I get you don't like Dre for what ever reason you think dennard and WGIII are better dispite not doing anything yet...

And apparently forget guys like hall getting beat badly on several plays here and there too....  especially his first few years starting on the field.

It's not just our defense; it's NFL defenses. In coverage there is basically Cover 0-4 and hybrid cover 6, It would be naive to think someone with knowledge of these schemes and coverage responsibilities could review a play and tell who failed in their assignment. Where Ds try to "fool" QBs is presnap. Once the ball is snapped someone with knowledge of these schemes and roles within them can tell who failed their assignment.

I don't dislike Dre, nor have I said Dennard or Radio are better. I have said IMO Leon Hall is still a better CB than Dre. Someone earlier said Dre was better that's why we moved Leon inside. many will tell you the slot CB has the hardest job in coverage as the WR can go in any direction. WR's on the outside are covered by the boundry.  

[fredtoast]

(06-09-2016, 03:20 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I know Fred cannot see it but i sure saw Dre getting beat.

I saw every corner in the league get beat.

But no one has yet told me how many times Dre gave up a td or a long completion, and how that compared with other CBs in the league.  Because the Bengals were one of the best defenses in the league in preventing pass tds and long completions.  The Bengals only allowed 18 passing tds while the rest of the league averaged allowing 26.5.  The Bengals only allowed 6 pass completions of 40+yards while the rest of the league allowed an average of 10.5.  It just is not possible for us to have the worst CB in the league playing 98% of our defensive snaps and still rank so high in preventing passing tds and long completions.  If safeties were the main key in preventing passing tds and long completions they would be getting paid a lot more than CBs.  

Bengals pass defense also ranked in the top 5 in yards per attempt allowed and passer rating.  If Dre was consistently getting beat more than 117 other CBs that just would not be possible.
 
PFF has become a joke. They used to post some meaningful stats, but their "individual ranking system" is deeply flawed.  I have ordered the 2015 NFL almanac from Football Outsiders.  They have much more relevant stats on CBs.  I promise to post their ranking of Dre even if it says he is the worst in the league.

[fredtoast]

(06-09-2016, 03:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Pat Kirwan is probably one of the best at explaining this. I haven't read his book, but I doo listen to him and Jim Miller on Sirius regularlly and they reall break it down.

Too bad Kirwan does not work for PFF.  He is one of those who said Peko was a Pro Bowl level DT.

I'd really like to find his opinion of Kirkpatrick.

[*bfine32*]

(06-10-2016, 12:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I saw every corner in the league get beat.

But no one has yet told me how many times Dre gave up a td or a long completion, and how that compared with other CBs in the league.  

Why don't you provide us with the proof instead of asking everyone else to provide it for you. I and others have provided proof that would point to Dre being a sub-standard CB; all, I've seen the counter argument come up with is we have a good team and show me this particular part of his game wasn't terrible 

What ever the number of TDs he surrendered (and I guarantee it is more than his INTs) I'm sure a great portion of that can be attributed to others cleaning up behind him. I cannot remember the game, but I seem to recall Dre biting on a route and Carlos Dunlap actually cleaning it up and causing a turnover.

Let's try pop quiz:

Opposing teams threw at Dre far more than our other DBs last year because:

A. He's the weak link and their WRs can get open
B. He doesn't give up TDs
C. He's not going to intercept it
D. Both A and C
E. None of the above

[*jason*]

(06-10-2016, 01:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Why don't you provide us with the proof instead of asking everyone else to provide it for you. I and others have provided proof that would point to Dre being a sub-standard CB; all, I've seen the counter argument come up with is we have a good team and show me this particular part of his game wasn't terrible 

What ever the number of TDs he surrendered (and I guarantee it is more than his INTs) I'm sure a great portion of that can be attributed to others cleaning up behind him. I cannot remember the game, but I seem to recall Dre biting on a route and Carlos Dunlap actually cleaning it up and causing a turnover.

Let's try pop quiz:

Opposing teams threw at Dre far more than our other DBs last year because:

A. He's the weak link and their WRs can get open
B. He doesn't give up TDs
C. He's not going to intercept it
D. Both A and C
E. None of the above

D.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-10-2016, 12:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I saw every corner in the league get beat.

But no one has yet told me how many times Dre gave up a td or a long completion, and how that compared with other CBs in the league.  Because the Bengals were one of the best defenses in the league in preventing pass tds and long completions.  The Bengals only allowed 18 passing tds while the rest of the league averaged allowing 26.5.  The Bengals only allowed 6 pass completions of 40+yards while the rest of the league allowed an average of 10.5.  It just is not possible for us to have the worst CB in the league playing 98% of our defensive snaps and still rank so high in preventing passing tds and long completions.  If safeties were the main key in preventing passing tds and long completions they would be getting paid a lot more than CBs.  

Bengals pass defense also ranked in the top 5 in yards per attempt allowed and passer rating.  If Dre was consistently getting beat more than 117 other CBs that just would not be possible.
 
PFF has become a joke. They used to post some meaningful stats, but their "individual ranking system" is deeply flawed.  I have ordered the 2015 NFL almanac from Football Outsiders.  They have much more relevant stats on CBs.  I promise to post their ranking of Dre even if it says he is the worst in the league.

Yeah, we have one of the best Secondarys in the league no question. But Dre was our weakest player last season
in this Secondary and i never said he was the worst in the league. But i watched him get beat by far more than the
rest of the guys.

I do agree on PFF though, i put no stock in what they say.

I would like to hear what the 2015 NFL almanac from Football Outsiders has to say about Dre.

[fredtoast]

(06-10-2016, 01:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Why don't you provide us with the proof instead of asking everyone else to provide it for you. I and others have provided proof that would point to Dre being a sub-standard CB; 

You have not provided anything other than your opinion and a PFF rating.  I have already showed that the PFF individual ranking is so flawed that a CB who played fewer snaps and messed up more often than Dre could still be ranked ahead of him.

I have also addressed the claims about how his penalties prove he is bad and the claim that he can not tackle

(06-09-2016, 09:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Interesting theory.

How do you explain the fact that 5 of the top 8 CBs in penalties were Pro Bowl picks, and 2 of them were First Team All Pro.  Seems to me that a high number of penalties indicates that a CB is among the very best at his position in the leagu.
 
http://www.nflpenalties.com/position/defensive-back/cornerback?year=2015


2nd Aquib Talib....Pro Bowl last 3 straight years
5th Richard Sherman...First Team All Pro 3 times.  Pro Bowl last 4 straight years.
5th Marcus Peters....Pro Bowl this year.
7th Josh Norman.... First Team All Pro this year
7th Vontae Davis... Pro Bowl last two years

(06-09-2016, 10:17 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This is comical.  The CB who finished #3 in the league in solo tackles among CBs can't tackle?


Even PFF uses a "tackle efficiency" rating to judge a player instead of just missed tackles, but I guess if Chris Lewis-Harris had zero missed tackles last year Leonard would be claiming he was the best tackling CB in the entire league.     


So what is the REAL stat on how efficient of a tackler Dre is?

So please remind me what "proof" you and others have posted.  Because all I seen is opinions and a flawed PFF ranking.
And I promise to post the info from the Footballoutsiders almanac as soon as I get it.

[WeezyBengal]

I never realized he was only 31.

[3wt]

(06-10-2016, 02:22 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, we have one of the best Secondarys in the league no question. But Dre was our weakest player last season
in this Secondary and i never said he was the worst in the league. But i watched him get beat by far more than the
rest of the guys.

I do agree on PFF though, i put no stock in what they say.

I would like to hear what the 2015 NFL almanac from Football Outsiders has to say about Dre.

Dre played almost the whole season with a significantly injured shoulder.   I'll be interested to see what he does this year.

[fredtoast]

(06-10-2016, 12:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote:   I have ordered the 2015 NFL almanac from Football Outsiders.  They have much more relevant stats on CBs.  I promise to post their ranking of Dre even if it says he is the worst in the league.

Just got the almanac and it came out before the 2015 season.  So all it has are the stats from 2014.