Gruden, Newton & a nixed trade - How Andy became a Bengal

[jowczarski]

Some extra stuff from the story that couldn't make it -- I've got a ton of stuff, so if you guys have any questions on anything, or even on how we got the story/did the work (kind of like the 'how the sausage is made' type thing) get at me. Or not.

But here ya go: How Dalton became a Bengal

[Aquapod770]

Awesome read.



I'll take AJ Green and Andy Dalton over Cam everyday all day.

[McC]

(08-01-2016, 11:52 AM)jowczarski Wrote: Some extra stuff from the story that couldn't make it -- I've got a ton of stuff, so if you guys have any questions on anything, or even on how we got the story/did the work (kind of like the 'how the sausage is made' type thing) get at me. Or not.

But here ya go: How Dalton became a Bengal

Great job, as always.

[Bengalholic]

Another terrific (and very interesting) read Jim. I shared it on FB and Twitter.   

I would love to hear some of the backstory on how you go about/put together these articles. You really do have a knack for making them very informative, while also being really enjoyable reads.

[CageTheBengal]

(08-01-2016, 02:58 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Another terrific (and very interesting) read Jim. I shared it on FB and Twitter.   

I would love to hear some of the backstory on how you go about/put together these articles. You really do have a knack for making them very informative, while also being really enjoyable reads.

Me too. It seems rare that you get Mike and Marvin to be reflective about draft picks and the process that goes on during draft day.

[Bengal Dude]

Agreed on the backstories. Mike Brown rarely likes to look back on things, so it's awesome that you can get stories like that from him.

[Shake n Blake]

First off, @JimO - thanks for posting such interesting articles. You're quickly becoming my favorite Bengals beat guy, and that has little to do with you posting here, although that is appreciated as well.

I hate to be the negative guy, but this story just confirms that Mike Brown is still a knucklehead. Marv and Jay had Mike "convinced" to trade up for Dalton, yet he changes his mind on draft day cuz "trades affect the rest of the draft"? Obviously he's correct there, but if you have a QB that the coaches feel is the future of the franchise, you don't worry about a couple picks in the later rounds.

We would've been moving up a few spots in the 2nd round for Pete's sake. It's not like we had to offer a king's ransom. He's lucky that Dalton slipped a few more spots or we could've been stuck with Kaepernick or - Heaven forbid - Ryan Mallet. All for the sake of whatever scrubs they drafted after Dalton in 2011.

Jay said he was thankful to Dalton for basically getting him a head coaching gig, well we should all be thankful to Jay that he (and Marv) pushed so hard for Dalton, as it doesn't seem like Mike Brown was nearly as enthusiastic. At least not enthusiastic enough to part with a mid-late round pick.

[Au165]

(08-01-2016, 05:10 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: First off, @JimO - thanks for posting such interesting articles. You're quickly becoming my favorite Bengals beat guy, and that has little to do with you posting here, although that is appreciated as well.

I hate to be the negative guy, but this story just confirms that Mike Brown is still a knucklehead. Marv and Jay had Mike "convinced" to trade up for Dalton, yet he changes his mind on draft day cuz "trades affect the rest of the draft"? Obviously he's correct there, but if you have a QB that the coaches feel is the future of the franchise, you don't worry about a couple picks in the later rounds.

We would've been moving up a few spots in the 2nd round for Pete's sake. It's not like we had to offer a king's ransom. He's lucky that Dalton slipped a few more spots or we could've been stuck with Kaepernick or - Heaven forbid - Ryan Mallet. All for the sake of whatever scrubs they drafted after Dalton in 2011.

Jay said he was thankful to Dalton for basically getting him a head coaching gig, well we should all be thankful to Jay that he (and Marv) pushed so hard for Dalton, as it doesn't seem like Mike Brown was nearly as enthusiastic. At least not enthusiastic enough to part with a mid-late round pick.

Here is the thing in defense of Mike Brown....it worked. That pick to move up could have been Clint Boling. Boling has been a big part of our offensive line and to not have him could have had a negative effect on this team. The thing was they were okay with Kapernick, but liked Dalton more. That is the kind of gamble you have to take sometimes, when it works your a genius when it doesn't your an idiot. These things probably happen all the time and we never hear about it.

[Benton]

Good read. And it's probably something on my end (darn Macs) but I tried sharing on Facebook and kept getting an error message.

[CincyKid]

Mike did the same thing Tobin did this year........Duke waited on a WR instead of trading up; ala give up draft picks; and grabbed a CB and a WR 1-2

Patience is a good thing......Billings comes to mind as an example

[RASCAL]

(08-01-2016, 05:10 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: First off, @JimO - thanks for posting such interesting articles. You're quickly becoming my favorite Bengals beat guy, and that has little to do with you posting here, although that is appreciated as well.

I hate to be the negative guy, but this story just confirms that Mike Brown is still a knucklehead. Marv and Jay had Mike "convinced" to trade up for Dalton, yet he changes his mind on draft day cuz "trades affect the rest of the draft"? Obviously he's correct there, but if you have a QB that the coaches feel is the future of the franchise, you don't worry about a couple picks in the later rounds.

We would've been moving up a few spots in the 2nd round for Pete's sake. It's not like we had to offer a king's ransom. He's lucky that Dalton slipped a few more spots or we could've been stuck with Kaepernick or - Heaven forbid - Ryan Mallet. All for the sake of whatever scrubs they drafted after Dalton in 2011.

Jay said he was thankful to Dalton for basically getting him a head coaching gig, well we should all be thankful to Jay that he (and Marv) pushed so hard for Dalton, as it doesn't seem like Mike Brown was nearly as enthusiastic. At least not enthusiastic enough to part with a mid-late round pick.

" but this story just confirms that Mike Brown is still a knucklehead."

gotta agree shake! this idiot has no business in football!

[Essex Johnson]

(08-01-2016, 05:10 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: First off, @JimO - thanks for posting such interesting articles. You're quickly becoming my favorite Bengals beat guy, and that has little to do with you posting here, although that is appreciated as well.

I hate to be the negative guy, but this story just confirms that Mike Brown is still a knucklehead. Marv and Jay had Mike "convinced" to trade up for Dalton, yet he changes his mind on draft day cuz "trades affect the rest of the draft"? Obviously he's correct there, but if you have a QB that the coaches feel is the future of the franchise, you don't worry about a couple picks in the later rounds.

We would've been moving up a few spots in the 2nd round for Pete's sake. It's not like we had to offer a king's ransom. He's lucky that Dalton slipped a few more spots or we could've been stuck with Kaepernick or - Heaven forbid - Ryan Mallet. All for the sake of whatever scrubs they drafted after Dalton in 2011.

Jay said he was thankful to Dalton for basically getting him a head coaching gig, well we should all be thankful to Jay that he (and Marv) pushed so hard for Dalton, as it doesn't seem like Mike Brown was nearly as enthusiastic. At least not enthusiastic enough to part with a mid-late round pick.

so you are ripping Mike for a move that worked out.. ???? makes little sense.. im going to praise Mike for the patience he has shown in the draft over the last 5 or so years.. been working out well... 

[*Go Cards*]

Good solid read, Thanks

[OrlandoBengal]

(08-02-2016, 12:34 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: so you are ripping Mike for a move that worked out.. ???? makes little sense.. im going to praise Mike for the patience he has shown in the draft over the last 5 or so years.. been working out well... 

It worked out because of sheer luck.  What Shake is saying, and it makes perfect sense, is that there is no comparison in the value of a franchise quarterback versus a third or fourth round pick (especially when you have no idea who may be available).  If this team doesn't get Dalton, the franchise is set back at least 3-4 years before they have to start over.  If you don't have a quarterback in a quarterback's league, then you basically have nothing.

[Bengal Dude]

I know the article says that Mike nixed a trade when everyone showed up on draft day, but did they attempt to trade during the draft? I remember reading that were trying to get something done with Green Bay to get Dalton.

[Essex Johnson]

(08-02-2016, 01:00 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: It worked out because of sheer luck.  What Shake is saying, and it makes perfect sense, is that there is no comparison in the value of a franchise quarterback versus a third or fourth round pick (especially when you have no idea who may be available).  If this team doesn't get Dalton, the franchise is set back at least 3-4 years before they have to start over.  If you don't have a quarterback in a quarterback's league, then you basically have nothing.

You can call it luck, i will call it instinct and it worked very well for us

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Good read.

Moral of the story: Don't let Mike Brown choose your QBs for you. Can you imagine the Bengals having Kaepernick instead of Dalton? Awful.

[jowczarski]

First off – thanks for reading and sharing around. I really appreciate it!

Here we go:


@ShakenBlake
… this story just confirms that Mike Brown is still a knucklehead. Marv and Jay had Mike "convinced" to trade up for Dalton, yet he changes his mind on draft day cuz "trades affect the rest of the draft"? Obviously he's correct there, but if you have a QB that the coaches feel is the future of the franchise, you don't worry about a couple picks in the later rounds.

@Au165 …it worked. That pick to move up could have been Clint Boling.

@BengalDude …but did they attempt to trade during the draft?

@OrlandoBengal … there is no comparison in the value of a franchise quarterback versus a third or fourth round pick

These are all kind of interconnected, so I think I can get to it all here:

No one would say where they agreed to move to – but considering Gruden’s fears it either would have been to get ahead of Seattle, which would have at least been to No. 24 or at the very least moving ahead of New England into that No. 32 spot with Green Bay.

So if that’s the case, you’re talking about giving up quite a few picks to do that to get back into the first round. Now say what you want about the rest of that draft, but you’re talking about really decimating the picks a 4-12 team needed to rebuild.

Marvin, Jay and Mike said they agreed to trade up on Wednesday before the draft but then Mike changed his mind. They didn’t say an agreement was in place with a team though because it never got to that point once the draft started later that day.

Now, you’re right about the franchise QB. But here’s the thing: no one thought Dalton was “the franchise” at that point. If anyone did he would’ve been gone after Newton in that run of guys like Ponder/Locker/Gabbert. The quote didn’t make my big profile on Andy was Mike saying he wasn’t sure when he figured out Andy was indeed, their franchise QB – and actually that’s part of the story in that no one was really sure on Andy in that regard until the last couple years. Jay even told me he would have been OK with Kaepernick or Mallett if came to it but Dalton was really his guy and the guy he would stand on the table for to run his offense.



@Bengalholic
@CageTheBengal

Re: the background on “how” if you will:

For this particular story, a couple of things came into play. One, the 2016 draft was leading to a lot of five-year retrospectives around beat guys around the league on the likes of Newton, Von Miller, Patrick Peterson, Julio Jones, JJ Watt…Especially since Newton faced off against Miller in the Super Bowl. So at the owners meetings, in which all the head coaches are present, there were a lot of retrospectives being done. So, the coaches were in that mindset. And, being that it was my first owners meeting, Marvin was in a good mood and willing to talk about such things. I’ve found that it depends with him and I think the climate, the “what if” nature of Newton but the knowledge that the Green-Dalton combo has worked out pretty well had loosen him up a bit.

And of course, Gruden is Gruden. He loves Andy.

The second part of it was the bigger Dalton story I did. Usually the principal sources are willing to open up a bit when you’re doing something like that. Obviously, you need to get to that point with all of those sources, to get them to be comfortable with you and willing to agree to your requests. It doesn’t always happen of course, but all you can do there is just spend time with people. It’s funny, the whole point of the big Dalton profile is how genuine he is and that’s how he connects. Mike Brown is very much like that. I’d like to think I am, too. So I’ve been able to develop good relationships with those two in less than a year. I don’t take it for granted and it’s always something you have to maintain and work on.

[Shake n Blake]

(08-01-2016, 05:33 PM)Au165 Wrote: Here is the thing in defense of Mike Brown....it worked. That pick to move up could have been Clint Boling. Boling has been a big part of our offensive line and to not have him could have had a negative effect on this team. The thing was they were okay with Kapernick, but liked Dalton more. That is the kind of gamble you have to take sometimes, when it works your a genius when it doesn't your an idiot. These things probably happen all the time and we never hear about it.

I'd normally understand gambling that a player would fall. In fact, I'd encourage it. We're talking about a potential franchise QB though... for a team that had no QB. The risk was too big. I'm honestly a little surprised that so many would side with Mike Brown over our coaches, who clearly thought trading up was the right move. I'd say Marv has the far better track record with personnel decisions.

As for how the non-trade worked out, like I said, we got lucky that Dalton was still there. That doesn't automatically mean that standing put was a smart move. Marv and Jay had the guy they wanted and had the common sense to realize that ensuring that they'd land their coveted QB was worth offering up say.. a 4th-5th round pick. And fwiw, if the Bengals had to do it all over, I'd give up Clint Boling without blinking to ensure that we wind up with Dalton. Guards are easily replaceable. QBs are not.

(08-01-2016, 10:54 PM)CincyKid Wrote: Mike did the same thing Tobin did this year........Duke waited on a WR instead of trading up; ala give

up draft picks; and grabbed a CB and a WR 1-2

Patience is a good thing......Billings comes to mind as an example

Like I said above, waiting on a WR is one thing. Waiting on a QB that you're coaches feel could be the future of the franchise (or at least stabilize the position)? When you don't have a QB? For the sake of a late round pick? Dumb. Marv (the smarter personnel guy) wanted to trade up. I feel good siding with him on that one. It's a risk/reward thing. The risk of losing Andy Dalton wasn't worth the reward of getting say... Clint Boling (the best player - by far - that came after Dalton in that draft).

[OrlandoBengal]

(08-03-2016, 12:32 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'd normally understand gambling that a player would fall. In fact, I'd encourage it. We're talking about a franchise QB though... for a team that had no QB. The risk was too big. I'm honestly a little surprised that so many would side with Mike Brown over our coaches, who clearly thought trading up was the right move. I'd say Marv has the far better track record with personnel decisions (psst...that's an understatement).

As for how the non-trade worked out, like I said, we got lucky that Dalton was still there. That doesn't automatically mean that standing put was a smart move. Marv and Jay had the guy they wanted and had the common sense to realize that ensuring that they'd land their coveted QB was worth offering up say.. a 5th round pick. And fwiw, if the Bengals had to do it all over, I'd give up Clint Boling without blinking to ensure that we wind up with Dalton. Guards are easily replaceable. QBs are not.

We are talking about a franchise that did not have a quarterback at the time.  Knowing that Cam would be gone, the coaches said "we want Dalton".  That means that if you have to give up some draft picks to get him, then you do just that.  You get your quarterback.

And for anyone praising Mike Brown's "instincts"?  To quote a famous Bengal, "child please".