Finally getting some legitimate analysis of Kirkpatrick's play in '15

[*bfine32*]

(08-04-2016, 11:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have no choice but to guess at what you mean by "stats".

Check out post 61 and see if you can crack the code:

bfine32 Wrote:I suppose only you would have the answer to the orginal question posed.

Who mentioned anything about using INTs alone (although they are a stat)? I would use all stats that the NFL tracks to include tackles, PDs, FF, FR, ect....

Seems you're kind of talking out of both sides on your mouth here. 

"I wanna use stats because they are legit!!"

"OK, let's use stats"

"I wanna use the stats derived from the forumlas that I like because they are legit"

If you would have taken a little more time reading and a little less time looking silly, you would have caught that. 

Are you saying Dre and Claiborne are so separated by those stats that one can be call ed a bust and another can be called a top 20 CB in the NFL? 

[fredtoast]

(08-04-2016, 11:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Check out post 61 and see if you can crack the code:





If you would have taken a little more time reading and a little less time looking silly, you would have caught that. 

Are you saying Dre and Claiborne are so separated by those stats that one can be call ed a bust and another can be called a top 20 CB in the NFL? 

This getting silly.

So you don't want to just use ints?  you wnat to use PDs, FF and FR.

Okay lets ACTUALLY LOOK AT THESE STATS instead of just crying about how I refuse to look at them.

Last year Patrick Peterson had 8 PD, 1 FF, 1 FR. (according to profootball reference)

Dre had 16 PD, 0 FF, and 0 FR.


So let's talk about all these amazing stats you rely on to determine who is the best CB.  I am all ears.  Because it looks like Dre was a much better CB than Peterson last year based on these stats.  Don't you agree?

[*bfine32*]

(08-04-2016, 11:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This getting silly.

So you don't want to just use ints?  you wnat to use PDs, FF and FR.

Okay lets ACTUALLY LOOK AT THESE STATS instead of just crying about how I refuse to look at them.

Last year Patrick Peterson had 8 PD, 1 FF, 1 FR. (according to profootball reference)

Dre had 16 PD, 0 FF, and 0 FR.


So let's talk about all these amazing stats you rely on to determine who is the best CB.  I am all ears.  Because it looks like Dre was a much better CB than Peterson last year based on these stats.  Don't you agree?

Oh, it got silly a long time ago; it's just harder to see when you are the cause. I simply said Dre and Claiborne had similar stats and no one has said you refuse to look at them. All along I've been applauding you desire to use stats to determine what is legit. Do you think F.O. used these stats you provided to determine their rankings? Because they are legit for using stats.

[*bfine32*]

(08-04-2016, 11:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: There was another thread similar to this where one of Dre's great attributes was not giving up TDs. I took the time to post threads containing videos of pretty much every passing TD we gave up last year and allowed folks to look for themselves. I'll see if I can link it here. 

Here it is. Vids start at post 113. Posts 1-112 is just Fred talking about how stupid PFF is:

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Hall-and-Bengals-Still-Talking-Return?page=6&highlight=pff

No stats or formulas. just videos. 

[fredtoast]

(08-05-2016, 12:07 AM)bfine32 Wrote:  Do you think F.O. used these stats you provided to determine their rankings? Because they are legit for using stats.

They are legit compared to PFF.

Learn to read.

[fredtoast]

(08-05-2016, 12:09 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Here it is. Vids start at post 113. Posts 1-112 is just Fred talking about how stupid PFF is:

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Hall-and-Bengals-Still-Talking-Return?page=6&highlight=pff

No stats or formulas. just videos. 

So what is your point?

I could post video of every CB in the league giving up a td.

How do these videos prove how well Kirkpatrick compares to the rest of the CBs in the leagu?

[fredtoast]

(08-05-2016, 12:07 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I simply said Dre and Claiborne had similar stats and no one has said you refuse to look at them.

And I simpley pointed out that the stats I posted were a more accurate measure of how ell a CB plays.

According tot he stats that you want to rely on Patrick Peterson is an average to below average CB.  If you can't see the problem with your stats then you just don't understand football.

[*bfine32*]

(08-05-2016, 12:15 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So what is your point?

I could post video of every CB in the league giving up a td.

How do these videos prove how well Kirkpatrick compares to the rest of the CBs in the leagu?

Just some vids for folks to look at. Believe it or not; everybody might not just take your word for it that Dre is a top 20 CB in the NFL.

But feel free to knock yourself out posting those vids. I'd imagine it will take some time, but look on the bright side. Less time looking the fool on the message board. 

[fredtoast]

(08-05-2016, 12:17 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Just some vids for folks to look at. Believe it or not; everybody might not just take your word for it that Dre is a top 20 CB in the NFL.

But feel free to knock yourself out posting those vids. I'd imagine it will take some time, but look on the bright side. Less time looking the fool on the message board. 

Why did you refuse to answer my question?

What do these videos prove about where Dre ranks among all NFL CBs?  Can you answer that?

[*bfine32*]

(08-05-2016, 12:15 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So what is your point?

I could post video of every CB in the league giving up a td.

How do these videos prove how well Kirkpatrick compares to the rest of the CBs in the leagu?

(08-05-2016, 12:17 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Just some vids for folks to look at. Believe it or not; everybody might not just take your word for it that Dre is a top 20 CB in the NFL.

But feel free to knock yourself out posting those vids. I'd imagine it will take some time, but look on the bright side. Less time looking the fool on the message board. 

(08-05-2016, 12:20 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Why did you refuse to answer my question?

What do these videos prove about where Dre ranks among all NFL CBs?  Can you answer that?

Was there a double secret hidden question I refused to answer.

I'm done. The Matador has grown tired of dancing with the blind shoe maker

[fredtoast]

(08-05-2016, 12:28 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Was there a double secret hidden question I refused to answer.

No.  Just the one very clear one.

(08-05-2016, 12:20 AM)fredtoast Wrote: What do these videos prove about where Dre ranks among all NFL CBs?  Can you answer that?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-04-2016, 11:25 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: Notice how he hand-waved PFF without explaining why this study was better. He only said "superior stats".

We have data analyctics changing the game of football with PFF leading the way, but they're all wrong.

Because Fred...

Shhhhh.....don't ya know, PFF's stats only count when they support his stance on Piano Man.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-04-2016, 11:44 PM)J24 Wrote: Antonio Brown makes a lot of people look foolish; so how does that make Kirkpatrick a bust?

He doesn't make our other first rounder look like a bust.....plus, I don't think I said he was a bust, did I?  Bust would indicate he can't get on the field.  I am saying that he is average, and doesn't live up to first round billing.  Are y'all dude's agents?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-04-2016, 11:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Many people consider a player a bust when he does not live up to his draft status.

That's those people's problem.......

[fredtoast]

(08-05-2016, 12:17 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Just some vids for folks to look at. Believe it or not; everybody might not just take your word for it that Dre is a top 20 CB in the NFL.

I revised that to top 32.

Basically a number one CB on the average NFL team.

[Mike M (the other one)]

I wish you guys would stop arguing this stuff.
Dre is not the best #1.
Dre is a one of the best #2.
This year, Dre has a chance to be an even better #2 (by limiting his mistakes) and show that he could handle being a good #1 in the event that something happens to our #1.

Now if Dre gets bumped by Denard/Shaw then it doesn't prove that he's a bust, it just shows that someone else is that much better.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-04-2016, 10:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is the same silly thing people used to say about Justin Smith when he was leading the league in tackles but "sucking" for the Bengals.

I have just posted a lot of stats showing that Dre does not get beaten nearly as often as most other CBs, but people like you and Derrick keep acting like it is a BAD thing to make tackles.

Except Justin Smith didn't play CB in coverage. Dumb comparison.

(08-04-2016, 11:36 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: Well no freaking crap fred; making tackles isn't a bad thing.

But It becomes a bad thing when you find yourself having to make a noticeable portion of your tackles because you get beat.

Spot on.

(08-04-2016, 11:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But that is not what happened to Dre at all.

Yes it is, atleast more-so than the rest of the Secondary.

Kirkpatrick is not horrible, but he is the weak link back there. Atleast he was last year. Adam is our best CB by far.

[fredtoast]

(08-05-2016, 03:08 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Except Justin Smith didn't play CB in coverage. Dumb comparison.

It is a perfect comparison.

Justin Smith was a great player for the Bengals,but there was a certain portion of the fan base who did not like him and made up false claims to doscredit his good play.  One thing they used to say was that Justin just got a lot of tackles because he chased players down the field and jumped on the pile.  That was not true.  Justin was one of the best DEs in the league against the that is why he had so many tackles.  Now people are doing the exact same thing with Dre.  Dre does not get most of his tackles because he gets beat all the time and chases down the guys who beat him.  That just is not true.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-05-2016, 05:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is a perfect comparison.

Justin Smith was a great player for the Bengals,but there was a certain portion of the fan base who did not like him and made up false claims to doscredit his good play.  One thing they used to say was that Justin just got a lot of tackles because he chased players down the field and jumped on the pile.  That was not true.  Justin was one of the best DEs in the league against the that is why he had so many tackles.  Now people are doing the exact same thing with Dre.  Dre does not get most of his tackles because he gets beat all the time and chases down the guys who beat him.  That just is not true.

I agree that Justin Smith was a fine run stopper and that not all of his tackles were made from chasing down players
and jumping on a pile. Hell that doesn't count for more than half a tackle anyway. But these are two completely different
players you are talking about here playing two completely different positions.

I think it is a bad comparison.

I watched Dre get beat lots last year and tackle players from behind. Also, i will say that he is very good at not letting
them in the endzone cause he is fast. I just gave him some more props, you happy Fred?

[*bfine32*]

(08-05-2016, 05:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is a perfect comparison.

Justin Smith was a great player for the Bengals,but there was a certain portion of the fan base who did not like him and made up false claims to doscredit his good play.  One thing they used to say was that Justin just got a lot of tackles because he chased players down the field and jumped on the pile.  That was not true.  Justin was one of the best DEs in the league against the that is why he had so many tackles.  Now people are doing the exact same thing with Dre.  Dre does not get most of his tackles because he gets beat all the time and chases down the guys who beat him.  That just is not true.

You may have a point except for the fact that those that "make up false claims" can point to most likely the most respected Statiscal analysis organization in the Nation to support their "false claims". Stupid PFF, falsely discrediting his good play.

All you have is PFF is "faulty". And a second site that shows he is a mediocre CB.