Are AJ/Dalton the best

[*Go Cards*]

Is AJ Green and Andy Dalton the two best back to back draft picks by the Bengals in franchise history ?

Believe if they are not already, think they will be when it is all said and done.

Who are some of the other notable back to back picks ?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Maybe in the future. Not sure 5 years is ever enough to say "best ever" for much of anything.

Wasn't that long ago they picked JJo and Whitworth back-to-back.
Before that they had Justin Smith/Chad Johnson.
Also throw Darryl Williams/Carl Pickens in that convo too.




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To save someone the effort later: "Nick Vigil and anyone else!"

[Essex Johnson]

(08-04-2016, 04:50 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Maybe in the future. Not sure 5 years is ever enough to say "best ever" for much of anything.

Wasn't that long ago they picked JJo and Whitworth back-to-back.
Before that they had Justin Smith/Chad Johnson.
Also throw Darryl Williams/Carl Pickens in that convo too.




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To save someone the effort later:  "Nick Vigil and anyone else!"

I would say "yes" they are and here is why compared to your list

JJo played 5 years only with Bengals and has received more honors with Texans than with Bengals so just not enough impact for his 5 years compared to Dalton and Green.

Smith : solid player but again became a great player after he left Bengals, Chad was very good but AJ is better in his first 5 years in my opinion

Williams/Pickens:  Williams played just 4 years with Bengals, Picken solid but together no way they have had the impact of Dalton and Green.

I would put I would put Palmer and Steinbach up there though Steinbach left after 4 seasons.

The tough part here is you are talking about two premier positions in QB and WR, so I feel a bit harder to compare with other positions.

In the end though what Dalton and Green have done in their first 5 years in my opinion clearly puts them ahead of any other top 2 picks for the Bengals.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-04-2016, 05:31 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I would say "yes" they are and here is why compared to your list

JJo played 5 years only with Bengals and has received more honors with Texans than with Bengals so just not enough impact for his 5 years compared to Dalton and Green.

Smith : solid player but again became a great player after he left Bengals, Chad was very good but AJ is better in his first 5 years in my opinion

Williams/Pickens:  Williams played just 4 years with Bengals, Picken solid but together no way they have had the impact of Dalton and Green.

I would put I would put Palmer and Steinbach up there though Steinbach left after 4 seasons.

The tough part here is you are talking about two premier positions in QB and WR, so I feel a bit harder to compare with other positions.

In the end though what Dalton and Green have done in their first 5 years in my opinion clearly puts them ahead of any other top 2 picks for the Bengals.

The question was draft picks, not best Bengals careers, so I was going off of career performance, not career as a Bengal performance. Just because a guy later plays on another team doesn't make that draft pick bad. It's still a very good draft pick.


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That said, there is no way that AJ performed better than Chad in their first 5 years. If you look just a straight up comparison of stats without taking into context the time frame it was put up during, sure, but here's the simple fact. After 5 years in the NFL, Chad had led the AFC in receiving yards *TWICE*.

Chad in his 3rd-5th years finished 4th, 6th, and 3rd in the NFL in receiving yards. AJ finished 5th, 20th, and 8th.

Sure Chad had a much worse rookie season, but that's why AJ was drafted 4th overall and Chad was drafted 36th overall. But after that? Chad became the best WR in the AFC. AJ isn't even the best WR in the AFC North. (In the AFCN alone, he's finished 1st once, 2nd twice, 3rd twice.)

Love AJ, he's going to have a great career, but people continually forget/underplay how great Chad Johnson was in his prime.

Gotta keep in mind Chad put up his numbers when there were only like 2-4 QBs a year who threw for 4,000 yards. (And against the AFCN when the Ravens and Steelers were actually good at defense.)

[*Go Cards*]

(08-04-2016, 04:50 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Maybe in the future. Not sure 5 years is ever enough to say "best ever" for much of anything.

Wasn't that long ago they picked JJo and Whitworth back-to-back.
Before that they had Justin Smith/Chad Johnson.
Also throw Darryl Williams/Carl Pickens in that convo too.




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To save someone the effort later:  "Nick Vigil and anyone else!"

Very impressive picks for sure.

JJ and Whit was definitely sweet. Hated to lose JJ and Bengals have spent many of draft picks trying to replace him.   

[Essex Johnson]

(08-04-2016, 05:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The question was draft picks, not best Bengals careers, so I was going off of career performance, not career as a Bengal performance. Just because a guy later plays on another team doesn't make that draft pick bad. It's still a very good draft pick.


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That said, there is no way that AJ performed better than Chad in their first 5 years. If you look just a straight up comparison of stats without taking into context the time frame it was put up during, sure, but here's the simple fact. After 5 years in the NFL, Chad had led the AFC in receiving yards *TWICE*.

Chad in his 3rd-5th years finished 4th, 6th, and 3rd in the NFL in receiving yards. AJ finished 5th, 20th, and 8th.

Sure Chad had a much worse rookie season, but that's why AJ was drafted 4th overall and Chad was drafted 36th overall. But after that? Chad became the best WR in the AFC. AJ isn't even the best WR in the AFC North. (In the AFCN alone, he's finished 1st once, 2nd twice, 3rd twice.)

Love AJ, he's going to have a great career, but people continually forget/underplay how great Chad Johnson was in his prime.

Gotta keep in mind Chad put up his numbers when there were only like 2-4 QBs a year who threw for 4,000 yards. (And against the AFCN when the Ravens and Steelers were actually good at defense.)

First, it never said career in the post, you can interpret it that way and I can interpret playing as a Bengal. To be honest, I don;t think it matters to much if a player goes on and does greater things with another team, actually it takes a bit away from that player in my opinion as a Bengal draft pick. 

As for Chad. we just disagree, I see AJ after 5 years as a better player.

[*Go Cards*]

(08-04-2016, 05:31 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I would say "yes" they are and here is why compared to your list

JJo played 5 years only with Bengals and has received more honors with Texans than with Bengals so just not enough impact for his 5 years compared to Dalton and Green.

Smith : solid player but again became a great player after he left Bengals, Chad was very good but AJ is better in his first 5 years in my opinion

Williams/Pickens:  Williams played just 4 years with Bengals, Picken solid but together no way they have had the impact of Dalton and Green.

I would put I would put Palmer and Steinbach up there though Steinbach left after 4 seasons.

The tough part here is you are talking about two premier positions in QB and WR, so I feel a bit harder to compare with other positions.

In the end though what Dalton and Green have done in their first 5 years in my opinion clearly puts them ahead of any other top 2 picks for the Bengals.

Poor choice of wording on my part. Still think when it is said and done they will be best anyway though. 

Like these players that left too. Believe Justin Smith and JJ gave their all and left it all on the field for Bengals in my book.

 

[*jason*]

(08-04-2016, 05:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The question was draft picks, not best Bengals careers, so I was going off of career performance, not career as a Bengal performance. Just because a guy later plays on another team doesn't make that draft pick bad. It's still a very good draft pick.


- - - - - - - - - - -
That said, there is no way that AJ performed better than Chad in their first 5 years. If you look just a straight up comparison of stats without taking into context the time frame it was put up during, sure, but here's the simple fact. After 5 years in the NFL, Chad had led the AFC in receiving yards *TWICE*.

Chad in his 3rd-5th years finished 4th, 6th, and 3rd in the NFL in receiving yards. AJ finished 5th, 20th, and 8th.

Sure Chad had a much worse rookie season, but that's why AJ was drafted 4th overall and Chad was drafted 36th overall. But after that? Chad became the best WR in the AFC. AJ isn't even the best WR in the AFC North. (In the AFCN alone, he's finished 1st once, 2nd twice, 3rd twice.)

Love AJ, he's going to have a great career, but people continually forget/underplay how great Chad Johnson was in his prime.

Gotta keep in mind Chad put up his numbers when there were only like 2-4 QBs a year who threw for 4,000 yards. (And against the AFCN when the Ravens and Steelers were actually good at defense.)

In Chad's day, the other premier WRs in the league (Moss, TO, Boldin, and Smith) were in the NFC. Outside of Julio and Dex maybe, all of the top WRs are in the AFC right now. That's not really a fair comparison. I'm not poo pooing Chad. Just felt I should point that out.

[*Go Cards*]

Marvin is gone but Marvin Jones and Iloka are in running for best back to back value picks.

Jury is still out on

Dennard and Jeremy Hill

and

Eifert and Gio

[*Go Cards*]

(08-04-2016, 05:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The question was draft picks, not best Bengals careers, so I was going off of career performance, not career as a Bengal performance. Just because a guy later plays on another team doesn't make that draft pick bad. It's still a very good draft pick.


- - - - - - - - - - -
That said, there is no way that AJ performed better than Chad in their first 5 years. If you look just a straight up comparison of stats without taking into context the time frame it was put up during, sure, but here's the simple fact. After 5 years in the NFL, Chad had led the AFC in receiving yards *TWICE*.

Chad in his 3rd-5th years finished 4th, 6th, and 3rd in the NFL in receiving yards. AJ finished 5th, 20th, and 8th.

Sure Chad had a much worse rookie season, but that's why AJ was drafted 4th overall and Chad was drafted 36th overall. But after that? Chad became the best WR in the AFC. AJ isn't even the best WR in the AFC North. (In the AFCN alone, he's finished 1st once, 2nd twice, 3rd twice.)

Love AJ, he's going to have a great career, but people continually forget/underplay how great Chad Johnson was in his prime.

Gotta keep in mind Chad put up his numbers when there were only like 2-4 QBs a year who threw for 4,000 yards. (And against the AFCN when the Ravens and Steelers were actually good at defense.)

Agree Chad was very good and the book is still being written on AJ. 

But if he keeps up this pace and actually brings playoff victories to Cincinnati Chad will be in the rearview mirror quickly.

Right now it is still ongoing though and Chad definitely warrants discussion here while we are still in wait and see mode with AJ's career.  

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-04-2016, 06:41 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Agree Chad was very good and the book is still being written on AJ. 

But if he keeps up this pace and actually brings playoff victories to Cincinnati Chad will be in the rearview mirror quickly.

Right now it is still ongoing though and Chad definitely warrants discussion here while we are still in wait and see mode with AJ's career.  

Most certainly, if AJ continues this pace he'll easily be the best Bengals WR ever. Just need to see that happen before I crown the guy. It just seems sometimes we get wrapped up in the newest thing being the best thing. Maybe just due to how memories are. Happens in all sports it seems.

[Goalpost]

Another pairing not mentioned is the '72 draft in which Jim LeClair and Tommy Casanova were drafted back to back.

Casanova went in the 2nd round, played six years and went to three pro bowls at safety

LeClair went in round three afterward, and played twelve years for the Bengals at lb. He had one pro bowl year.

[EatonFan]

Takeo Spikes and Brian Simmons were pretty good.

[Essex Johnson]

(08-04-2016, 07:24 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Most certainly, if AJ continues this pace he'll easily be the best Bengals WR ever. Just need to see that happen before I crown the guy. It just seems sometimes we get wrapped up in the newest thing being the best thing. Maybe just due to how memories are. Happens in all sports it seems.

You're right about that just like we felt the Chad was on his way to hall ofl Fame career and then he just fizzled out doubt we see that with AJ, humble, mature, and a better team mate than Chad. If he stays healthy will be the best receiver we've ever had.

[*jason*]

(08-04-2016, 06:23 PM)jason Wrote: In Chad's day, the other premier WRs in the league (Moss, TO, Boldin, and Smith) were in the NFC. Outside of Julio and Dex maybe, all of the top WRs are in the AFC right now. That's not really a fair comparison. I'm not poo pooing Chad. Just felt I should point that out.

In fairness to Chad, I forgot Marvin Harrison and Andre Johnson were his AFC peers too.

[*Go Cards*]

(08-04-2016, 07:46 PM)EatonFan Wrote: Takeo Spikes and Brian Simmons were pretty good.

Yep
Was a big Takeo fan.

[*Go Cards*]

Jury still out on

Jackson III and Boyd

and

Ogbuehi and Jake Fisher

Plus my rooting favorite

Vigil and Billings

[*Go Cards*]

Quitter Carson and Steinbach did not suck either.

[*jason*]

Odell and Pollack were tragically derailed.

[*jason*]

(08-04-2016, 04:50 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Maybe in the future. Not sure 5 years is ever enough to say "best ever" for much of anything.

Wasn't that long ago they picked JJo and Whitworth back-to-back.
Before that they had Justin Smith/Chad Johnson.
Also throw Darryl Williams/Carl Pickens in that convo too.




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To save someone the effort later: "Nick Vigil and anyone else!"

For the life of me I couldn't think of who the first rounder in 2001. I kept thinking it was Levi Jones.