50 Heroin Overdoses In 2 Days In Cinci

[Belsnickel]

(08-29-2016, 01:18 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: You can't just treat everyone like they're the victim and like everyone deserves to be pampered, which is a common theme for you because you need to start holding people accountable, which jail is about the only source of hope for that and a place that can keep drugs out of their hands.

You're funny.

[BFritz21]

(08-29-2016, 09:24 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You're funny.

Would you like to elaborate on why that post was so outrageously comical??

[Belsnickel]

(08-29-2016, 10:11 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Would you like to elaborate on why that post was so outrageously comical??

Because it's not the only place, and it isn't necessarily all that drug free.

[Bengalzona]

(08-29-2016, 01:18 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Another one of your Democratic ideas of "help the individual" instead of punishing people and "trying to help them."



When he tries to report me, mods please realize that I'm only keeping this about the forum and his ideas on things that he has made public.  Actually, as you'll see, it's really only about this post.

Maybe you live in a sheltered world in your community with no internet access, but there has been 174 heroin overdoses in six days in Cincinnati, and that's not including the fact that there's been people killed by people who were driving and overdosing.  I'd say that's a pretty big threat to other people and not just themselves.

You can't just treat everyone like they're the victim and like everyone deserves to be pampered, which is a common theme for you because you need to start holding people accountable, which jail is about the only source of hope for that and a place that can keep drugs out of their hands.

Brad, I am using this post as an example so that all members may consider a new way of responding to posts.

We want more civil discussions in P&R (and throughout the board, for that matter). When a person uses a lot of "you" or "your" or "he" statements in a post or response (see highlights above), that centers the attention of the reader on one specific individual and their conflicts with that specific person and can be seen as an instigation.

Sometimes people make posts with these types of words and we mods usually don't say anything. That is because the context in which they are used is less inflammatory and/or they are used sparingly. In the post above, they have been used repeatedly leaving us little alternative but to say something.

I would encourage all posters to consider two alternatives: 1) Don't use words like "you", "your", "he", etc. in your postsfrequently, or 2) Don't respond to someone else if you are not able to do #1.

The alternative is to be put in the "timeout" box. 

[XenoMorph]

(08-29-2016, 09:23 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The reason they don't end up speaking to police is the fear of incarceration. That is why many users don't seek help because they fear they are just going to be thrown into jail/prison because that is what our system has a history of doing. The fear of it keeps them on the street and using, and actually doing it makes them harder criminals. I'm not going to sit here and say we need to just leave them be, but maybe taking a look at the mental health care they could use that could actually help them kick an addiction. Our current corrections infrastructure doesn't rehabilitate criminals at all, so why would throwing drug addicts into the mix be any different?

As for those driving while under the influence, they should face the same consequences as a drunk driver, same for any intoxicant. I would just rather see us actually getting people to kick the stuff rather than perpetuating the problem, which is what the war on drugs has been doing.

i believe a country in Europe recently legalized all drugs so people could seek help without fearing prosecution.

[NATI BENGALS]

(08-29-2016, 09:23 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The reason they don't end up speaking to police is the fear of incarceration. That is why many users don't seek help because they fear they are just going to be thrown into jail/prison because that is what our system has a history of doing. The fear of it keeps them on the street and using, and actually doing it makes them harder criminals. I'm not going to sit here and say we need to just leave them be, but maybe taking a look at the mental health care they could use that could actually help them kick an addiction. Our current corrections infrastructure doesn't rehabilitate criminals at all, so why would throwing drug addicts into the mix be any different?

As for those driving while under the influence, they should face the same consequences as a drunk driver, same for any intoxicant. I would just rather see us actually getting people to kick the stuff rather than perpetuating the problem, which is what the war on drugs has been doing.

http://m.wlwt.com/news/what-happens-after-first-responders-save-heroin-users-from-overdoses/32605024

Its not that they are not talking to police. Its that police arent even there. And paramedics cant arrest someone.

Its crime and punishment. From my understanding there are places you can go and seek help without fear of arrest. Cops arent the ones you need to talk to if you seek treatment. Prison doesnt need to be a rehab center. It needs to be viewed as punishment. You screwed up. You got caught breaking the law now accept your punishment. 

Isnt there some psychology involved here? Negative outcomes lead to different decisions. Positive reinforcement leads to repeat behavior. Oh you made a fatal mistake... Well here we will bring you back to life , give you a clean needle for next time, and you can even go to this cool little room and shoot up so if you OD we will be right there to save you. And please have no fear of being punished. But hey drugs are bad. 

[Belsnickel]

(08-29-2016, 02:41 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: http://m.wlwt.com/news/what-happens-after-first-responders-save-heroin-users-from-overdoses/32605024

Its not that they are not talking to police. Its that police arent even there. And paramedics cant arrest someone.

If we're talking about OD incidents, then I get what you were saying. I am talking about drug abuse overall. But it is interesting that police aren't showing up to those calls. I'd be interesting to really get into the why of that.

(08-29-2016, 02:41 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Its crime and punishment. From my understanding there are places you can go and seek help without fear of arrest. Cops arent the ones you need to talk to if you seek treatment. Prison doesnt need to be a rehab center. It needs to be viewed as punishment. You screwed up. You got caught breaking the law now accept your punishment. 

And this is why, to me, use of drugs should be decriminalized. A lot of people are ill-informed about this stuff and even though there are places they can go to get help and not face punishment, they are under the impression they still will. I don't want prison to be a rehab center for drug addicts, bu tI want us to be more accepting of the idea that addicts don't need prison, they need rehab and often therapy.

(08-29-2016, 02:41 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Isnt there some psychology involved here? Negative outcomes lead to different decisions. Positive reinforcement leads to repeat behavior. Oh you made a fatal mistake... Well here we will bring you back to life , give you a clean needle for next time, and you can even go to this cool little room and shoot up so if you OD we will be right there to save you. And please have no fear of being punished. But hey drugs are bad. 

Except that is not at all what I am advocating. Rehab is a long, difficult journey that really never ends. Getting an addict on that road is not positive reinforcement in any sense. If anything rehab, especially forced rehab, could still be considered positive punishment (negative reinforcement is something else) because of the loss of liberty that would still exist. It would just be a more productive system than locking them up and giving them no support structure to actually break their addiction.

Addiction is as much mental as physical. When you incarcerate someone you can (potentially) break the physical dependency. Not always the case as drugs do find their way into our prisons. But the mental addiction is not being treated, and in fact may be made worse due to the incarceration.

[Belsnickel]

(08-29-2016, 02:02 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: i believe a country in Europe recently legalized all drugs so people could seek help without fearing prosecution.

I want to say the Netherlands, but I could be wrong.

[BFritz21]

(08-29-2016, 10:41 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Because it's not the only place, and it isn't necessarily all that drug free.

They're a lot more drug free than most places, and it's also punishment to try and influence them to stay off of them.

Rehab, people can typically check themselves out, and forced rehab people could just fake being better and go back on drugs when they get out.

It's gotten to the point where holding people's hands and saying "don't worry, we'll get through this together, you are loved," isn't working and authority tough love needs to be shown.

(08-29-2016, 01:16 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Brad, I am using this post as an example so that all members may consider a new way of responding to posts.

We want more civil discussions in P&R (and throughout the board, for that matter). When a person uses a lot of "you" or "your" or "he" statements in a post or response (see highlights above), that centers the attention of the reader on one specific individual and their conflicts with that specific person and can be seen as an instigation.

Sometimes people make posts with these types of words and we mods usually don't say anything. That is because the context in which they are used is less inflammatory and/or they are used sparingly. In the post above, they have been used repeatedly leaving us little alternative but to say something.

I would encourage all posters to consider two alternatives: 1) Don't use words like "you", "your", "he", etc. in your postsfrequently, or 2) Don't respond to someone else if you are not able to do #1.

The alternative is to be put in the "timeout" box. 

Like I said, I strictly stuck to his ideas and beliefs, so how is that wrong?  It's discussing her opinions as how they relate to this discussion.

Also, please don't hesitate to look at the long list of personal attacks he has made against me and explain why they are ok but it's not ok for me to use his personal ideas in a discussion about said things.