Coyle's secondary...back to the days of Bresh?

[*SHRacerX*]

I used to vomit every time I saw that assbag Breshnahan plead with his team to "not give up the big play", only to get nickel and dimed to 30-plus points every week.

Then Zimmer came along, and it was "contest every pass". The defense soared. They played aggressive. They beat the shit out of people. Now, it is right back to that weak cushion crap.

Coyle without Zimmer is like Marv without Hue...boring and conservative. This team has as much life as a corpse in the non-zombie era.

Why on earth would you continue to use first round picks on DBs when they are treated like 7th round scrubs.

Start contesting every pass attempt and wake this team up from its slumber. It is making me sick to watch this once great defense get torched by has-beens and rookies.

[milksheikh]

It stings more seeing Zimmer and the Vikings defense do so well... what could've been...

Oh well.. :|

[fredtoast]

Bengals are #4 in the league in lowest pass completion percentage allowed (57.0)

And getting beat by giving up multiple 40+ yard td passes is pretty much the complete opposite of being "nickle and dimed"

This thread is ridiculous.

[Alleyviper13]

Guenther is riding Zimmers coattails. Itll show this year very badly. I wish it wasnt so. The defense is going to implode on each other. Guenther pretends to coach, but those dudes do what they want now.

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2016, 12:24 AM)Alleyviper13 Wrote: Guenther is riding Zimmers coattails. Itll show this year very badly. I wish it wasnt so.

It isn't so at all.

First year Zimmer was gone Guenther had the #12 scoring defense.

Second year Zimmer was gone we improved to 2nd.

[bengaltruth]

(09-28-2016, 12:24 AM)Alleyviper13 Wrote: Guenther is riding Zimmers coattails. Itll show this year very badly. I wish it wasnt so. The defense is going to implode on each other. Guenther pretends to coach, but those dudes do what they want now.

Guenthers quarterback on the D is back in Burfict. Zimmer according to reports at the time tried his best to get Guenther to defect to Minnesota when he was hired. I met Guenther (he is a very impressive individual shook all my kids hands) and although it was after the season he talked solid football for at least 5 minutes, he is passionate and he is a natural teacher. I for one am hoping he will never get a HC job unless its for us! Losing Zimmer was bad but if we lose Guenther, its onto Coyle. Guenther>Coyle IMO

[Brownshoe]

(09-28-2016, 01:07 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It isn't so at all.

First year Zimmer was gone Guenther had the #12 scoring defense.

Second year Zimmer was gone we improved to 2nd.

First year Guenther was here we were missing Burfict most of the year and Atkins wasn't fully recovered yet. Plus we didn't have a solid #2 DE since MJ left. Plus Newman left too (which at the time I thought he was our best DB). A lot of things were going against him and our defense didn't look bad. (note: It looked average, but that's not bad with what he had to deal with)

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-28-2016, 12:10 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Bengals are #4 in the league in lowest pass completion percentage allowed (57.0)

And getting beat by giving up multiple 40+ yard td passes is pretty much the complete opposite of being "nickle and dimed"

This thread is ridiculous.

Two big plays, one on CLH, in three games.   I don't think teams are airing it out.  If you watched how the game started, and progressed, it was nickel and dime.  

Your opinion is ridiculous, but that largely goes without saying, Captain Contrarian.  

[Fan_in_Kettering]

This is not a defense of Kevin Coyle so please don't flame me too hard.

The problem isn't too much Kevin Coyle. The problem is a lack of Reggie Nelson.

When Reggie was Cincinnati's free safety, he provided over the top coverage second to none. With Reggie over the top, the cornerbacks could play as close as they wanted to any receiver in the NFL because they knew Reggie literally had their backs. Josh Shaw doesn't have the speed or the knowledge Reggie did and strong safeties like George Iloka aren't expected to be so proficient at over the top coverage.

With these factors in mind, the Bengals' cornerbacks must play over the top too. It prevents most long pass plays but allows completion of most any pass under 25 yards.

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-28-2016, 09:12 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: This is not a defense of Kevin Coyle so please don't flame me too hard.

The problem isn't too much Kevin Coyle.  The problem is a lack of Reggie Nelson.

When Reggie was Cincinnati's free safety, he provided over the top coverage second to none.  With Reggie over the top, the cornerbacks could play as close as they wanted to any receiver in the NFL because they knew Reggie literally had their backs.  Josh Shaw doesn't have the speed or the knowledge Reggie did and strong safeties like George Iloka aren't expected to be so proficient at over the top coverage.  

With these factors in mind, mind, the Bengals' cornerbacks must play over the top too.  It prevents most long pass plays but allows completion of most any pass under 25 yards.

Flame you?  

I get your point, and it is a legitimate one.  But here is mine:  If they don't feel they have legit safety help over the top, why did they stay in cover three a lot and why didn't they bring that safety up to the line and create more pass rush with him?  The scheme they were doing was not working worth a damn, and that is a part of what drives me crazy is the lack of in-game adjustments.  

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(09-28-2016, 09:21 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Flame you?  

I get your point, and it is a legitimate one.  But here is mine:  If they don't feel they have legit safety help over the top, why did they stay in cover three a lot and why didn't they bring that safety up to the line and create more pass rush with him?  The scheme they were doing was not working worth a damn, and that is a part of what drives me crazy is the lack of in-game adjustments.  

That might be the best question of the season.  The best answer I can come up with is Kevin Coyle is hyper-afraid of giving up the deep ball and he's willing to give up the middle of the field to do it.  When I see a defensive lineman drop into coverage it drives me nuts and when linebackers cover faster receivers I want to tear what's left of my hair out.  Remember Scotty's advice on Star Trek?  "The right tool for the right job!"

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-28-2016, 09:21 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Flame you?  

I get your point, and it is a legitimate one.  But here is mine:  If they don't feel they have legit safety help over the top, why did they stay in cover three a lot and why didn't they bring that safety up to the line and create more pass rush with him?  The scheme they were doing was not working worth a damn, and that is a part of what drives me crazy is the lack of in-game adjustments.  

.....drives me batshit crazy....a hallmark of Mediocre Marv coached teams.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(09-28-2016, 09:30 AM)Wyche Wrote: .....drives me batshit crazy....a hallmark of Mediocre Marv coached teams.

The Bengals need a coach who pees sulfuric acid and poops napalm.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-28-2016, 09:21 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Flame you?  

I get your point, and it is a legitimate one.  But here is mine:  If they don't feel they have legit safety help over the top, why did they stay in cover three a lot and why didn't they bring that safety up to the line and create more pass rush with him?  The scheme they were doing was not working worth a damn, and that is a part of what drives me crazy is the lack of in-game adjustments.  

Under Marvin this team has rarely shown any ability on offense or defense to have any ability for "in game adjustments" . People talk about halftime adjustments, in 1973 when they had a 40 play - playbook that was fine. In today's world you have to have in series adjustments !

Marvin just gets the deer in the headlights look, claps his hands and says come on guys lets play better, while having no clue what to do.

We're playing not to lose and all that does is guarantee a loss ! I love Marvin in many ways but he peaked at DC

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(09-28-2016, 09:55 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Under Marvin this team has rarely shown any ability on offense or defense to have any ability for "in game adjustments" . People talk about halftime adjustments, in 1973 when they had a 40 play - playbook that was fine. In today's world you have to have in series adjustments !

Marvin just gets the deer in the headlights look, claps his hands and says come on guys lets play better, while having no clue what to do.

We're playing not to lose and all that does is guarantee a loss ! I love Marvin in many ways but he peaked at DC

Losing Marvin's ability to draft talent would be devastating.  If he could be kept in the Front Office somehow......

[Older Than You]

Well, our O went back to the days of Bratkowski, so why not have our D go back to the days of Bresnahan.

[3wt]

• I felt like our corners were giving too much cushion.   That might be part of the bend don't break nature of our defense, but they seemed to give an unusual amount of cushion.
• Tackling was terrible.   I'm wondering if both Jones and Dre have ongoing shoulder problems.  They almost never center their shoulder into the tackle and they are getting burned as a result
• Safeties have not played as well as last year.   I think they'll improve, and I'm glad to see Smith getting some reps (though he was burned pretty bad against Denver)
• We lost a significant # of dbs this year, and losing WJ3 was a big loss considering the lack of depth.  I'm hoping Dennard gets up to speed soon
• I think getting 55 back will eliminate the confusion in the defense.  Some of the really long plays were apparently the result of confusion in the secondary.  No way CLH should have been left without safety coverage
• I think Guenther makes good adjustments.  I just think he has a green crew
  

Positives:  Clarke, Hunt, Shaw, V. Rey.  Burfict returning will make a big impact, Dansby will settle into the defense.  This is happening at the beginning of the season.   I think we can hope for more

[J24]

I am not a huge fan of Gunther myself but I think we need to get off his back a little bit. First off the secondary was awesome the prior two weeks(ironically when we were pressing) and overall the defense was fine. Secondly the Broncos are a run first team so the game plan I bet was to stop the run first(which they did) and not allow the deep ball which they did for the most part. It's like in Basketball when a guy that can't shoot just starts making 3s it just happens. Sometimes the other team just beats you.

[Shake n Blake]

IMO, people are overreacting a bit to one game against the defending SB champs. I think our D did fine jobs against the Jets and Steelers. Overall, the defensive stats last year were as good or better than any year Zimmer was here. Love Zim, but I don't think Paulie G has ever gotten a fair shake on here. I think people resent Paulie simply because he's not the beloved Zim-meister.

The game plan didn't work against Denver, but let's put the appropriate amount of blame where it belongs. Sanders beat Pacman like a redheaded rented mule. Nobody wants to talk about that though. If the same thing happened to DreKirk, we wouldn't be talking about Paulie G and Coyle. We'd have 10 threads ripping DreKirk.

[bengalbiff]

They do play off but they have been since Hall and Joseph were here and in their prime. Terrance Newman played off, Adam Jones plays off, Dre was supposed to be a press corner but he too has been playing off. They do press some but it's not really been an issue until this season. Though that could change. It has affected individual games in the past but overall the defense has played well. It's also worth noting that it seems to be common practice to have corners playing off. You see it every week and the offense has plays to target corners in off coverage.
I know ill probably get creamed for saying it but Adam Jones is getting old. He was picked on by Denver, but so was Dennard to some extent. Having first round corners not play for whatever reason until their second and third seasons has killed us. Dennard isn't where he should be. Kirkpatrick was definitely affected by his early injuries etc. Now Jackson misses his rookie year. It's maddening.